Totemist

[Man With Dog]

Hiya All,

I asked recently, about fighter classes or different options for them.
One i was interested in was Totemist - now whilst i wait for whether i am allowed to take Totemist (as we dont have the book) that leads me onto the next quetion.

It looks quite an indepth and possibly tricky class to build without the book to hand - should i wait to get the book maybe and just make do with a standard fighter class for now or is there somewhere else i could get the Totemist information to how my DM it does exist and isnt OP.
Least it doesnt seem OP to me.

Any advice and tips welcome

[zagan]

Well technically the totemist is given in the magic of incarnum Excerpt here

You also have two soulmeld to go with it plus perhaps one or two from the mind eyes. But without the book the you lack of soulmeld made it unplayable.

It would be like trying to play a sorcerer with two spell know that you didn't chose yourself.

In practice the totemist is a great class and I heartily recommand it but yeah you need the book.

[Amphetryon]

Hiya All,

I asked recently, about fighter classes or different options for them.
One i was interested in was Totemist - now whilst i wait for whether i am allowed to take Totemist (as we dont have the book) that leads me onto the next quetion.

It looks quite an indepth and possibly tricky class to build without the book to hand - should i wait to get the book maybe and just make do with a standard fighter class for now or is there somewhere else i could get the Totemist information to how my DM it does exist and isnt OP.
Least it doesnt seem OP to me.

Any advice and tips welcome

Totemist sits high in Tier 3, if I recall correctly, but requires some familiarity with its system to work efficiently. Well done, it is a combat monster, able to get off ungawdly amounts of natural attacks; poorly done, it is a substandard unarmed fighter who is prohibited from using essential magical gear. I'd be very hesitant to run Totemist in a game without direct access to the material, especially if it's the first time you're using Incarnum rules.

All that said, Totem Rager is often cited as among the best choices for Totemists to PrC into. That means, if the game starts at 1st level, you can begin life as a fairly standard Barbarian and pick up Totemist when you have access to the books.

[Tinydwarfman]

Incarnum is a pretty serious departure from pretty much any other rule system, so it can be pretty hard to build without the book.

On balance, MoI is very good, maybe even a little underpowered. The classes tend to widely fluctuate from useless to very nice depending on how you build them, but with decent optimization skills the Totemist comes in at about a tier 3, the Incarnate at high tier 4 (although it can be tier 5 or 6 if you build it badly), and the soulborn at tier 5.

[Man With Dog]

Totemist sits high in Tier 3, if I recall correctly, but requires some familiarity with its system to work efficiently. Well done, it is a combat monster, able to get off ungawdly amounts of natural attacks; poorly done, it is a substandard unarmed fighter who is prohibited from using essential magical gear. I'd be very hesitant to run Totemist in a game without direct access to the material, especially if it's the first time you're using Incarnum rules.

All that said, Totem Rager is often cited as among the best choices for Totemists to PrC into. That means, if the game starts at 1st level, you can begin life as a fairly standard Barbarian and pick up Totemist when you have access to the books.

The last barbarian i played went Frenzied Berserker and was a DPS beast.
Now i would like to be able to stand up well in combat again (if i go as the Fighter class) but i like a class that is going ot keep me interested. I am running a Druid at the moment and that is keeping me interested.

I have access to most books - No ToB and things like Magic Of Incarnum so any kind of class you think is fun to play? Still in v3.5 and will start at level 1 with a pretty strict DM

[Choco]

The last barbarian i played went Frenzied Berserker and was a DPS beast.
Now i would like to be able to stand up well in combat again (if i go as the Fighter class) but i like a class that is going ot keep me interested. I am running a Druid at the moment and that is keeping me interested.

I have access to most books - No ToB and things like Magic Of Incarnum so any kind of class you think is fun to play? Still in v3.5 and will start at level 1 with a pretty strict DM

For a fun fighter class you could go DMM cleric. Cast a persisted Divine Power every morning and you are already a better fighter than a fighter and a better paladin than a paladin. Then you got countless other options, like self-buffing out the wazoo, dropping the occaisonal heal, raising undead minions...

[Greenish]

The last barbarian i played went Frenzied Berserker and was a DPS beast.
Now i would like to be able to stand up well in combat again (if i go as the Fighter class) but i like a class that is going ot keep me interested. I am running a Druid at the moment and that is keeping me interested.

I have access to most books - No ToB and things like Magic Of Incarnum so any kind of class you think is fun to play? Still in v3.5 and will start at level 1 with a pretty strict DM

If you've access to PHBII, the Duskblade is pretty nifty magic-using beatstick.

[Man With Dog]

For a fun fighter class you could go DMM cleric. Cast a persisted Divine Power every morning and you are already a better fighter than a fighter and a better paladin than a paladin. Then you got countless other options, like self-buffing out the wazoo, dropping the occaisonal heal, raising undead minions...

Whats the DMM Cleric? Is this like the Uber Cleric i heard ppl talking about?

So a Human Cleric with feats directed towards combt instead of empowering heals and stuff?

[Man With Dog]

If you've access to PHBII, the Duskblade is pretty nifty magic-using beatstick.

It is one ive never played before, i would have to steal my mates PHBII - in fact, might jsut have to fight him for it

[Greenish]

Whats the DMM Cleric? Is this like the Uber Cleric i heard ppl talking about?

DMM stands for Divine Metamagic, which allows you to burn Turn Undead uses instead of having the spell slot of the spell you applied metamagic to increase. Commonly used with Persist Spell, which sets a spell's duration to 24 hours, to keep your normally round/level spells (such as Divine Power giving you full BAB) on permanently.

So a Human Cleric with feats directed towards combt instead of empowering heals and stuff?

Well, most of the feats go towards the Divine Metamagic itself, combat feats being secondary. (For standard build, you'll need Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell and preferably Extra Turning or two, though several of them can be gained through domains.)

Burning feats to improve your healing usually isn't very efficient anyway.

[Choco]

Whats the DMM Cleric? Is this like the Uber Cleric i heard ppl talking about?

So a Human Cleric with feats directed towards combt instead of empowering heals and stuff?

Basically. DMM = Divine Meta Magic. You use Turn Undead attempts to instead use metamagic. So for 7 Turn Undead attempts (the Extra Turning feat is worth taking at least once, and get some nightsticks) you can cast persistent spells. Divine Power is the big one because it gives you a fighter's BAB and a strength boost.

Just search for ClericZilla for some builds.

Even though the build doesn't get REAL good until Divine Power, a default cleric is a tier 1 full casting class that is also good at melee so you'll be fine.

[Amphetryon]

Whats the DMM Cleric? Is this like the Uber Cleric i heard ppl talking about?

So a Human Cleric with feats directed towards combt instead of empowering heals and stuff?

Use the Divine MetaMagic feats in presented in Complete Divine, coupled with Persistent Spell from Complete Arcane and piles of Nightsticks from Libris Mortis (check with your DM to see if Nightsticks stack for Extra Turning). Pick a Domain with Extend Spell as a granted power so you save yourself a Feat. DMM: Persist means you have Divine Power up and running every hour you're awake, and can officially kick more butt than any full BAB base class by an order of magnitude. If DMM: Persist is unavailable to you, DMM: Quicken is often cited as a strong second choice.

EDIT: Wow, piles of ninjas.

[Man With Dog]

DMM stands for Divine Metamagic, which allows you to burn Turn Undead uses instead of having the spell slot of the spell you applied metamagic to increase. Commonly used with Persist Spell, which sets a spell's duration to 24 hours, to keep your normally round/level spells (such as Divine Power giving you full BAB) on permanently.
Well, most of the feats go towards the Divine Metamagic itself, combat feats being secondary. (For standard build, you'll need Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell and preferably Extra Turning or two, though several of them can be gained through domains.)

Burning feats to improve your healing usually isn't very efficient anyway.

So to make one i go Human Cleric:


1) Persistent Spell
H) Extra Turning
3) Divine Metamagic (Persistant Spell)

I did look up ClericZilla and this is what it suggested with Sun and Planning Domain.

Sound right?

[Man With Dog]

So to make one i go Human Cleric:


1) Persistent Spell
H) Extra Turning
3) Divine Metamagic (Persistant Spell)

I did look up ClericZilla and this is what it suggested with Sun and Planning Domain.

Sound right?

Also - Do I have to wait til lvl 7 to start destoying faces and such or can i start much earlier?

[Greenish]

So to make one i go Human Cleric:


1) Persistent Spell
H) Extra Turning
3) Divine Metamagic (Persistant Spell)

I did look up ClericZilla and this is what it suggested with Sun and Planning Domain.

Sound right?

You need Extend Spell for Persistent Spell, but you get that from Planning Domain. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with Sun domain, either. Other than that, it's pretty much like that. There are decent enough spells to Persist even before Divine Power, and at lower levels your medium BAB means you aren't that far behind full BAB classes even without Law or Knowledge Devotions. Cloistered Cleric might be better though, even with poor BAB and fort.

[Edit]: Do note that DMM persist cleric is pretty high up there, and you might end up annoying your DM and co-players if you outstage them in their own field, which can easily happen if they aren't interested in optimizing (or haven't realized that everythin' can be found in teh tubes).

[Man With Dog]

You need Extend Spell for Persistent Spell, but you get that from Planning Domain. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with Sun domain, either. Other than that, it's pretty much like that. There are decent enough spells to Persist even before Divine Power, and at lower levels your medium BAB means you aren't that far behind full BAB classes even without Law or Knowledge Devotions. Cloistered Cleric might be better though, even with poor BAB and fort.

[Edit]: Do note that DMM persist cleric is pretty high up there, and you might end up annoying your DM and co-players if you outstage them in their own field, which can easily happen if they aren't interested in optimizing (or haven't realized that everythin' can be found in teh tubes).

I have said i will take up a fighter role in the party as opposed to the healer so that should stop any of them getting upset. My DM can be fairly strict with regards to Variants and such.

Is Cloistered a variant build or just a cleric built a specific way?

I am mostly looking for help building a front rank cleric i guess.

I dont mind what domains and such i take as long as there is a reason for it. And am starting at level 1 so a few levels projection might be useful

[Greenish]

Is Cloistered a variant build or just a cleric built a specific way?

It's an UA variant of the default class.

[Draz74]

Cloistered Cleric is indeed a variant. And it's definitely not needed for a melee beatstick-style Cleric ... in fact, until you can cast Persistent Divine Power, the Cloistered Cleric is significantly worse at melee than the normal Cleric. It just has a buttload of nice skill points on the side of its melee and casting abilities.

So if you're trying to specialize in melee, and your DM doesn't like variants anyway, skip Cloistered.

The standard Domain choice for a Cleric who wants to use/abuse DMM: Persist is the Planning and Undeath domains. Undeath Domain gives you the Extra Turning feat for free.

[Tinydwarfman]

Of course, if your DM plays with gods and their domains, good luck finding a god with both Planning and Undeath. Also Cmp. Champion has Devotion feats, which are very nice for a melee cleric, and you can trade one of your domains for the appropriate Devotion feat if you want. The Cleric Handbook has all the info you need and more.

[Greenish]

Cloistered Cleric is indeed a variant. And it's definitely not needed for a melee beatstick-style Cleric ... in fact, until you can cast Persistent Divine Power, the Cloistered Cleric is significantly worse at melee than the normal Cleric.

Well, Knowledge Devotion helps with the disparities, especially on lower levels when the divide is less steep, but yeah, normal cleric is more geared for melee (before persisted spells really kick in).

[Glimbur]

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with Sun domain, either.

Radiant Servant of Pelor?

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'd like to note that currently, Magic of Incarnum is on Amazon used for under ten dollars. I got my copy for like $15 after shipping and handling.

If you decide you still want to play a Totemist, or anyone else wants the book. Good deal compared to most other books up there.

[Greenish]

Radiant Servant of Pelor?

Burning Hate bleh.