Empowered Magic Missile?

[Popertop]

I was talking to my friend about this, and we aren't sure what all would be empowered.

A conservative view leads me to believe that only the dice rolls are empowered, with a 9th level caster dealing 5d4+5 +5d2 points of damage.

But I'm wondering if the bonus damage is also empowered, leading to 5d4+5 +5d2+2(2.5 rounded down)

Or can the number of missiles also be affected? that would mean 5d4+5 +2 more missiles? but then are the extra missiles regular, or just the extra empowered damage? is their bonus damage empowered?

[Starbuck_II]

I was talking to my friend about this, and we aren't sure what all would be empowered.

A conservative view leads me to believe that only the dice rolls are empowered, with a 9th level caster dealing 5d4+5 +5d2 points of damage.

But I'm wondering if the bonus damage is also empowered, leading to 5d4+5 +5d2+2(2.5 rounded down)

Or can the number of missiles also be affected? that would mean 5d4+5 +2 more missiles? I don't really know how to go about that...

It is one of the listed examples.
I'll use a 1st level spell Magic missile (say Sudden Empower so we can ignore spell slot increase).
(1d4 +1) x1.5= empowered.

[dsmiles]

The way I played (and DMed) it was roll first, empower second. Maybe a house rule, but it worked out well.

[Gerrtt]

The rules are pretty clear on this one, only the variable numeric parts of a spell are affected by empower spell.

9th level caster does 5d4 +5, empowered does 5d4x1.5 +5.

[KillianHawkeye]

The rules are pretty clear on this one, only the variable numeric parts of a spell are affected by empower spell.

9th level caster does 5d4 +5, empowered does 5d4x1.5 +5.

No, it is actually 5 instances of (1d4+1)*1.5. The +1 definitely does get multiplied by Empower.

Also, you just multiply the result rather than needing to add some weird d2s into the mix like the OP did. You don't get more missiles since that is based strictly on Caster Level and not variable.

The way I played (and DMed) it was roll first, empower second. Maybe a house rule, but it worked out well.

I'm not even sure HOW you'd Empower without rolling first.

[Starbuck_II]

The rules are pretty clear on this one, only the variable numeric parts of a spell are affected by empower spell.

9th level caster does 5d4 +5, empowered does 5d4x1.5 +5.

Page 93 PHB disagrees with you. It says roll (1d4+1) then empower (multiply by x1.5) this amount.

You have to empower it all according to the designers.

[Jornophelanthas]

The case of Magic Missile is explicitly mentioned as an example in the Player's Handbook description of the feat.

Suppose I Empower a Magic Missile at CL 5, which means I produce 3 missiles. I can describe this in three ways. Pick the one that suits you best.

In text:
For each missile, I determine 1d4+1 damage (including the +1), then multiply this number by 1.5 and round down any fractions, and finally I add up the damage from all three missiles.

Mathematical formula:
1.5x(1d4+1) + 1.5x(1d4 + 1) + 1.5x(1d4 + 1).
(And round down fractions before adding up the final numbers. My math skill is not sufficient to write that down in symbols.)

Calculating for real:
Suppose my d4 roll results are 2, 3, and 4.
1.5 x (2+1) = 4.5, rounded down to 4
1.5 x (3+1) = 6
1.5 x (4+1) = 7.5, rounded down to 7.
Total damage = 4 + 6 + 7 = 17.

[Urpriest]

However, examples in other places multiply the number of dice. I'm AFB atm, but I distinctly remember that being how empower interacts with maximize. For example, let's say you have an empowered, maximized 10d6 fireball. The fireball would deal 60+5d6, not 90 damage. This implies you have to roll 50% more dice, like with a critical hit.

[KillianHawkeye]

However, examples in other places multiply the number of dice. I'm AFB atm, but I distinctly remember that being how empower interacts with maximize. For example, let's say you have an empowered, maximized 10d6 fireball. The fireball would deal 60+5d6, not 90 damage. This implies you have to roll 50% more dice, like with a critical hit.

But you don't roll more dice on a non-Maximized Empowered fireball. That's just the interaction between Empower and Maximize. (Note that in the example of a 10th-level wizard's Maximized Empowered fireball, the spell deals 60 plus half of 10d6 damage, not 60 plus 5d6, indicating that rolling 50% more dice is not the official procedure for Empower Spell.)

Basically, you get +50% the rolled damage in addition to the maximum amount of damage normally possible (rather than 150% of the maximum damage possible).

[Urpriest]

But you don't roll more dice on a non-Maximized Empowered fireball. That's just the interaction between Empower and Maximize. (Note that in the example of a 10th-level wizard's Maximized Empowered fireball, the spell deals 60 plus half of 10d6 damage, not 60 plus 5d6, indicating that rolling 50% more dice is not the official procedure for Empower Spell.)

Basically, you get +50% the rolled damage in addition to the maximum amount of damage normally possible (rather than 150% of the maximum damage possible).

Hmm. Reading the example, you appear to be correct. I'm not sure why I remembered otherwise.

[KillianHawkeye]

Hmm. Reading the example, you appear to be correct. I'm not sure why I remembered otherwise.

Eh, memory does that sometimes.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think the intent is that the random aspect is empowered, and magic missile does 2 to 5 damage. That random value is what is multiplied by 1.5. The adition of a set number of damage to the die roll is just a mathmatical way to increase the damage of a power without increasing the range that damage can have.

Ie 1d6 has an average of 3.5 and a range of 6
1d4+1 has an average of 3.5 and a range of 4

Both of these are random values, and both are roughly equivelent in power.

The use of adding damage straight rather than adding more dice becomes and issue when you start dealing with numeric spread and the law of averages.

[Marnath]

O.o I've always just added half again of whatever the damage roll was. So that maximized empowered fireball above would be 90 each time. I guess i've been doing it wrong.

[imp_fireball]

I'm not even sure HOW you'd Empower without rolling first.

He just rolls the damage and then he multiplies it by 1.5

O.o I've always just added half again of whatever the damage roll was. So that maximized empowered fireball above would be 90 each time. I guess i've been doing it wrong.

Perhaps. Except that maximizing the fireball would ruin the empowered affect because:

Average of 1d6 roll is 3.5. Multiply that by 1.5 and then round down or up.

Maximize states that it gives you the highest possible numeric of any variable numeric value. This assumes that you haven't empowered said numerics in any variables.

In short, the maximized empowered fireball would still do 90 damage every time.

Unless the rules wanted maximize to interfere with empowered and null it out, which would suck (the rules tend to hate stacking affects, but then again maximize and empowered are two feats and major spell slot burnage).

But you don't roll more dice on a non-Maximized Empowered fireball. That's just the interaction between Empower and Maximize. (Note that in the example of a 10th-level wizard's Maximized Empowered fireball, the spell deals 60 plus half of 10d6 damage, not 60 plus 5d6, indicating that rolling 50% more dice is not the official procedure for Empower Spell.)

Basically, you get +50% the rolled damage in addition to the maximum amount of damage normally possible (rather than 150% of the maximum damage possible).

So the easy way out of this would be to make it 95 damage every time. If you really love rolling, then go ahead and roll but... y'know. Fluff wise it's easier to assume that maximize is crazy and catalytic and it tends to maximize the affects of other metamagic on the spell as well.

[ericgrau]

Empower + maximize is also explained specifically in the feats. Basically you get maximum amount + half rolled amount. So you still need to roll, but only for the extra empower damage. Thus the fireball would be 60 + 1/2 of 10d6.

Easy. Now for strategy. Meta-magic magic missiles are great for taking out soft strategic targets regardless of their location or attempts to protect themselves (cover: ignored, blur: ignored, blink: ignored, displacement: ignored, mirror image: multi-target = destroyed, etc.). This is what makes up for their lesser damage. Might not be much against a front line fighter but even a little optimization can make the wizard say to another wizard "I win initiative, you die, no save, kkthxbai". W/o the splatbook/dragon-magazine tricks you can still leave him hurting pretty bad. And even when round 2 comes, come on nobody actually prepares shield much less casts it w/o first witnessing the missiles.

[jiriku]

Wow, peeps. You're seriously making this harder than it has to be.

Empower Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.

Maximize Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

So, magic missile:
Regular: 5d4+5
Empowered: (5d4+5) * 1.5
Maximized: 25
Empowered and Maximized: 25 + (5d4+5) * 0.5


Done and done.

[KillianHawkeye]

In short, the maximized empowered fireball would still do 90 damage every time.

If you actually read this thread (and the applicable rules) you will find that this is false.

Fluff wise it's easier to assume that maximize is crazy and catalytic and it tends to maximize the affects of other metamagic on the spell as well.

It's easier to assume the feat does what you want it to rather than actually reading the rules? Well, I suppose it IS, but it's not good advice.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

So, magic missile:
Regular: 5d4+5
Empowered: (5d4+5) * 1.5
Maximized: 25
Empowered and Maximized: 25 + (5d4+5) * 0.5

Problem here is each missile does damage separately, which is important when taking into account resistances, immunities, other special damage effects, and, most importantly, splitting the missiles among multiple targets. So it really is (1d4+1) * 1.5 five times.

This also has an effect on rounding, as noted above.

[Paul H]

Hi

Jiriku got it right.

The variable includes the bonuses - X+1 is still a variable.

So a Warmage/Agent Savant Empowering the Magic Missile: (5D4+10+[Edge+Extra Edge]) x 1.5

Thanks
Paul H