[Forgotten Realms] Understanding The Divine

[Archpaladin Zousha]

After spending the past few weeks playing Neverwinter Nights 2, I've once again become enamored with the Forgotten Realms setting. But some things have been bugging me as I learn more and more about the setting, namely, the way the gods of the setting behave.

It seems like throughout Faerun's history, the gods were arbitrarily set in charge of things and for the most part seem too focused on their own petty squables or pet projects, rather than providing emotional succor and a kind of community for their followers, which is what a religion is.

The first thing that bugs me is that at times the gods seem to be REALLY stupid.

The two events that spring to mind are during the Time of Troubles, when Mystra got herself killed going up against Helm, because apparently she wanted to tell Ao the identities of the gods who stole the Tablets of Fate personally. This seems incredibly dumb from my point of view. Mystra has been made mortal, and she's up against Helm, who not only the only remaining god, so going up against him is suicidal, but also completely trustworthy and loyal, so she likely'd be able to trust him. Helm even offers to relay Mystra's information to Ao, but Mystra, for some unfathomable reason, decides her information is too important to trust HELM with and attacks him, getting herself killed and passing the torch on to Midnight.

The second is the courtship of Sune described in the Grand History of the Realms. I'm not sure where to start with this. First, there's the fact that Tyr, the embodiment of justice, decides he wants to get all romantic with the fickle-but-well-meaning goddess of love and beauty, with Helm, whom I must state again is trustworthy to the end. I don't understand WHY they would want to do something like this. It's got nothing to do with their duties as gods. Second, apparently Cyric manipulates Tyr into thinking Helm is putting the moves on Sune, causing Tyr to challenge Helm to a duel and killing him. What. The. Hell?! Why would Tyr, literally justice incarnate listen to the words of a raving megalomaniac and noted murderer of gods like Cyric? Cyric is Chaotic Evil, Tyr was Lawful Good. There's no reason for the two of them to even associate! Secondly, why would Tyr deem it necessary to fight Helm. Helm does not decieve. He was so trustworthy that he was the only god allowed to keep his divinity during the Time of Troubles. How could Tyr think for a minute that Helm would lie to him? Finally, this whole thing gets started for the love of a goddess, something that isn't really necessary. The whole thing seems like a pointless melodrama, something gods should be above.

While we're on the subject of Cyric, lets discuss evil gods. Why does Ao keep these guys around? I suppose there's supposed to be a "balance between good and evil" thing, but it seems that evil gods really just exist to screw things up. Cyric has murdered multiple gods at this point, and is now responsible for the single greatest disaster the Realms has ever seen. All he seems to get for these crimes is a slap-on-the-wrist imprisonment. Bane and Myrkul stole the Tablets of Fate, and while they were punished with the rest of the gods, and Myrkul was killed, Bane ended up becoming the Comeback King of the Realms, and many of Myrkul's old creations (The Wall of the Faithless, the Crown of Horns and the Spirit-Eater Curse) still survive and are even supported by the rest of the pantheon. Shar aids and abets all of these, including distracting Azuth with her dancing (again, gods should be above distractions such as these) so Cyric could murder Mystra and cause the Spellplague, and Shar didn't even recieve any sort of punishment for her hand in Mystra's death (plus the death of Azuth when he fell into the Nine Hells and was eaten by Asmodeus). Evil gods seem to exist solely to make devastating bids for Realm-domination, heedless of the destruction they cause to both the people who they command and the people they seek to subjugate, and the gods of good seem either ineffectual or apathetic to these things.

I find it hard to take the gods of Faerun seriously sometimes, since it seems like they don't act like gods, instead acting like superheroes and supervillains from a bad comic book. They show no concern for the harm their actions cause their mortal followers and mortals in general, and act like their melodramas are more important than their duties.

I know that I'm probably generalizing a great deal, since my closest contact with the Realms comes from playing Neverwinter Nights 2 and paging through random FR books from both editions. I've never read any of the FR novels, especially the Avatar series that discusses the Time of Troubles. I know that there are plenty of examples of gods being melodramatic jerks (Greek myth especially) but the gods of Faerun don't seem to be designed with that kind of a theme. They're the engineers of the cosmos, making sure the sun comes up each morning, that gravity works properly and that the dead go to the afterlife, rather than a giant self-absorbed inbred family of degenerates.

[dsmiles]

Do not attempt to understand the divine (you will get a headache).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've already got one. I'm trying to figure out how to do an FR campaign with such a messed-up bunch of powers-that-be.

[Calmar]

Gods and religion in FR has nothing in common with real gods and religions. They're simply sources of divine spells and if you manage to kill one () you get his portfolio and followers and no one gives a damn. In the words of the Athar from PLANESCAPE: they're nothing more or less than extremely powerful people, not divine and not worth of worship.

In my games I strive to portray the gods similar to the way they work in real mythology: mysterious, subtle, and dignified - no harmful messing with the world, no killing each other on a regular basis and no favoritism of certain "chosen" cranks.

[Aroka]

You seem to assume deities are somehow perfect. D&D deities are usually most closely related to Greek or maybe British Celtic/Irish deities, who displayed exceedingly human traits.

And on the other hand you assume that Ao, who probably is perfect, has anything akin to human morality. That would defeat the whole point of him. Why wouldn't he keep the evil gods around? They screw things up, sure, but what's wrong with that, exactly? Ao isn't there to keep up some kind of order or status quo or specific state of things.

[Greymane]

Welcome, Archpaladin Zousha, to the insanities that is the writing behind the behavior of the Gods of Faerun.

Honestly? I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. It's something I've struggled with explaining to my players when we've run FR in the past, and something I've given myself a headache over as I bash my head into the wall when I read some of these things.

Most of the glaring problems are the very things you've mentioned, and so I would recommend either finding a less crazy interpretation for the events that happened, which is what I do, or never, ever let your players or the general populace ever find out what dim-witted emotional wrecks the people they pray to on a daily basis are.

Because truly, why wouldn't you spend more time on your followers? Your powers are keyed to how many you have, and the whole reason for the Time of Troubles was because they weren't paying attention to the insipid little mortals.

In short: Running a campaign with simultaneously the greatest number of deities (great flavor for most of them, too), who occasionally act like they were born yesterday? Good luck.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

You seem to assume deities are somehow perfect. D&D deities are usually most closely related to Greek or maybe British Celtic/Irish deities, who displayed exceedingly human traits.

Not exactly perfect, more like representatives of an ideal the average person should strive for if they wish to have a pleasant afterlife.

Which also raises another question. Who in their right mind would willingly worship a god who encourages you to do evil things like torture, kill and steal, and then when you get to the afterlife, you're just eternally tortured for your loyalty?

And on the other hand you assume that Ao, who probably is perfect, has anything akin to human morality. That would defeat the whole point of him. Why wouldn't he keep the evil gods around? They screw things up, sure, but what's wrong with that, exactly? Ao isn't there to keep up some kind of order or status quo or specific state of things.

Then what IS he there for? He just seems to show up and say "Bing! You're powers are gone!" to kick off the Time of Troubles and that's it. If the gods are supposed to be doing their jobs of keeping the natural order safe, then why would he tolerate ones who basically ignore their duties and cause other deities to fail in their duties with catastrophic results?

[Mnemnosyne]

Realms gods are a very active pantheon. Some of them are jerks. Even the good ones can be jerks sometimes. This is somewhat similar to greek gods where they often screwed with mortals.

Another thing to remember is that many of the gods of the realms are ascended mortals. As Karsus proved, when you become a god, you do not automatically gain knowledge and wisdom suited to the task. You simply become a god. And in this setting there are very few gods that are detached. Most of them have their own intentions and plans, and that's the way they're supposed to be. They can be petty, they can be childish, and they can be wrong. Just like the ancient greek gods, again.

As for some of the situations you question, for the Mystra and Helm one, that one never fully made sense to me either, but it is relatively clearly shown in the Avatar Trilogy that Mystra was aware, even before being cast down, that she would die, and had been preparing Midnight for exactly that reason. Similarly, Mystra herself was prepared and brought up in almost exactly the same way, when Karsus stole Mystryl's power. One of the Arcane Age trilogies shows us Mystra's existence before the Fall, as some sort of specially prepared human. Therefore you could ask the same question about Mystryl - why didn't she just smite Karsus before he instigated the Fall of Netheril by casting Karsus's Avatar? The answer appears to be, because they were aware of the results of their actions and somehow knew them to be necessary. Possible example: Without the Fall, perhaps the Sharn would have been unable to imprison the Phaerimm behind the Sharn Wall, and the Phaerimm would have eventually succeeded. Similarly, perhaps without setting Midnight and the others on their quest, the Dead Three would have accomplished something terrible. Perhaps Ao would have never reinstated the gods, or decided to wipe the slate clean and start over, or something of that nature.

As for the 4th edition stuff, I don't consider it at all. After reading through the 4E realms stuff, it feels like they didn't really even try to keep with the feel of the Realms anymore. A great deal of it, not just the gods part, feels like a complete break from the history we know of the Realms, far beyond any of the twistings and changes that came in 3E.

Which also raises another question. Who in their right mind would willingly worship a god who encourages you to do evil things like torture, kill and steal, and then when you get to the afterlife, you're just eternally tortured for your loyalty?

You're not eternally tortured. You go to that gods realm, and are rewarded with power and authority. Generally speaking. The lower planes are not a punishment for those who have powerful patrons there like gods. They are the appropriate place for such people, an environment perfectly suited to them where they can gain power and continue to be as they have been in life. Only those that tried to be 'good' but didn't make the cut are the ones that tend to wind up tortured in the lower planes.

Then what IS he there for? He just seems to show up and say "Bing! You're powers are gone!" to kick off the Time of Troubles and that's it. If the gods are supposed to be doing their jobs of keeping the natural order safe, then why would he tolerate ones who basically ignore their duties and cause other deities to fail in their duties with catastrophic results?

He's there to maintain an order far beyond that which you're looking at. You're looking at catastrophic results for the people of Faerun, he's considering something far beyond that, a balance on a scale beyond that of the gods and the planes themselves.

[QuickComment]

It seems like throughout Faerun's history, the gods were arbitrarily set in charge of things and for the most part seem too focused on their own petty squables or pet projects, rather than providing emotional succor and a kind of community for their followers, which is what a religion is.

The first thing that bugs me is that at times the gods seem to be REALLY stupid.

I think what you're describing is not so much the gods being stupid as them being imperfect and occasionally irrational. Sometimes they fall in love and act rashly. Sometimes they trust people who should not be trusted, and sometimes they mistrust people who are trustworthy. (Having established that the gods are fallible, though, it's not at all clear that using the alignment charts and agendas of the gods to decide who is trustworthy is sufficient.)

To most people who have grown up with or around modern, and especially monotheistic, religions, this is a weird way to think about gods. Aren't gods supposed to be better than humans; perfect beings? Aren't they supposed to embody some concept completely?

Well, no, that doesn't seem to be how it works in ancient pantheons (such as the D&D pantheon is mostly modelled after). Gods are respected and worshipped essentially because they are extremely powerful. Of course, you don't say that to their face if you actually believe in them and worship them, so you tend not to hear that said in as many words. But in ancient myth, gods tend to behave distinctly imperfectly. For instance, from Greek myth:

• Athena, Greek goddess of, among other things, wisdom, punished a woman for claiming that she was a better weaver than Athena (also the goddess of weaving), when, as it turns out, she actually was and was able to prove it in a weaving contest.
• Zeus famously used godly his powers of shapeshifting to seduce/rape various mortal women (e.g. Europa, Leda). Besides the issue of consent being anything from very murky to very clear on the wrong side of the line, Zeus was also married to Hera who did not appreciate all this infidelity.

Now, humans would probably regard Zeus as a pretty trustworthy guy. If there was a guidebook listing for him, he'd probably have some sort of "Pretty Trustworthy Guy" agenda. For instance, he was the "keeper of oaths" and the guy in charge of punishing dishonest traders. However, to another god or goddess , that's not enough: clearly Hera has no good reason to trust hum absolutely.

This sort of imperfection creates potential for misunderstandings and conflict across shifting lines, which makes for more interesting myths, whether the myths are created as a serious attempt to explain the unexplainable or as a fiction for use in roleplaying.

As I see it, the D&D gods are like this. Think of them as rash, impulsive people who are used to getting their way -- very powerful people without a greater society to keep them in check. Don't expect them to be rational, calm or in any way perfect. Specifically, don't expect them to embody their agendas or their alignments perfectly. Expect them to make mistakes and to have major personal failings such as excessive pride and lust. Forget everything you know about Judeo-Christian mythology; these gods are very unlike anything found in that.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It's kind of hard to reconcile those ideas when you've got gods that embody concepts to a tee. Consider gods like Kelemvor and Helm. They perform their roles exactly as one might expect them to. Helm was the only god during the Time of Troubles to remain a god because he embodied the concept of guardianship and duty so well. Kelemvor found out the hard way that in order to judge the dead, you need to be impartial and willing to do dark things for the sake of the whole, and when you actually encounter him in Mask of the Betrayer, he's pretty damn reasonable. He only kept the Wall of the Faithless around because the other gods demanded that he do so. Tyr is supposed to represent justice, impartial and fair. That's why he's depicted as blind and his name is invoked in courts. How does it make the whole concept of justice look if he turns around and throws a hissy fit over a woman? Kelemvor could be a better god of justice than Tyr!

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm going to let you in on a little secret, Zousha. Which is to say opinion.
For any ambitious character in Faerun, there is only one possible valid goal.

The Gods Must Die.

Every last one of them needs to be taken down and Ao most of all. The whole system is fundamentally corrupt and it is the moral duty of Mortal-Kind to end the Tyrany of the Divine.
Row Row Fight the Power.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've been toying with making the campaign something like that. Like the PCs decide the gods need to get their act together and basically raise enough ruckus in the Outer Planes that Ao is forced to show up and at least parley.

[Tiki Snakes]

That's when you strike, and just remember....

Aim for the eyes Boo. Aim for the eyes.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

How would someone kill Ao though. I'm pretty sure it's established that he's the FR equivalent of Caine from VtM. The rules for fighting him are "You lose."

[Tiki Snakes]

How would someone kill Ao though.

Spoiler

Show

WITH MY DRILL!

*cough*
I'm not saying it would be easy, but I am going to say that I believe that it's the correct and worthy goal.
And just because everybody knows you can't fight Ao doesn't mean you can't fight Ao.

It doesn't even mean you can't fight Ao and have a chance at winning. Some people/entities just need a good sock in the mouth.
Okay, that's too much tropey meme think for one post. Time to sleep.

[Navigator]

Everything about the Spellplague really bothers me. As far as I see it, Forgotten Realms was definitely turned upside-down in favor of the new 4th edition mechanics, it being the new "Living" campaign setting, and this new "Points of Light" concept. That and Drizzt is still alive, of all the heroes from FR.

This isn't to say that silly things haven't happened before the current edition, but Tyr killing Helm? Really? For all my FR setting information, I completely disregard the Grand History of the Realms, because it's not writing, it a bunch of writers destroying the setting into Eberron 2.0 for reasons that have nothing to do with FR.

Or I'm just ranting!

[Kish]

After spending the past few weeks playing Neverwinter Nights 2, I've once again become enamored with the Forgotten Realms setting. But some things have been bugging me as I learn more and more about the setting, namely, the way the gods of the setting behave.

It seems like throughout Faerun's history, the gods were arbitrarily set in charge of things and for the most part seem too focused on their own petty squables or pet projects, rather than providing emotional succor and a kind of community for their followers, which is what a religion is.

This strikes me as...dangerous on this board. That's not what a religion is in D&D. Community, sure, particularly for Lawful gods. Emotional succor?...Maybe, if it happens to be part of that god's portfolio, but it's never likely to be more than secondary.

The first thing that bugs me is that at times the gods seem to be REALLY stupid.

Not stupid. Insane, by mortal standards. Talos sees everything in terms of how it relates to destruction, Lathander in terms of how it relates to renewal. Other concepts are irrelevant to them.

The two events that spring to mind are during the Time of Troubles, when Mystra got herself killed going up against Helm, because apparently she wanted to tell Ao the identities of the gods who stole the Tablets of Fate personally. This seems incredibly dumb from my point of view. Mystra has been made mortal, and she's up against Helm, who not only the only remaining god, so going up against him is suicidal, but also completely trustworthy and loyal, so she likely'd be able to trust him. Helm even offers to relay Mystra's information to Ao, but Mystra, for some unfathomable reason, decides her information is too important to trust HELM with and attacks him, getting herself killed and passing the torch on to Midnight.

You're missing the point. She wanted her power back. She didn't want to get a message to Ao; she wanted to go home. And, like all the deities, she was unused to anyone saying No to her, and inclined to view it as inherently wrong.

While we're on the subject of Cyric, lets discuss evil gods. Why does Ao keep these guys around?

Because Ao isn't good.

I suppose there's supposed to be a "balance between good and evil" thing, but it seems that evil gods really just exist to screw things up. Cyric has murdered multiple gods at this point, and is now responsible for the single greatest disaster the Realms has ever seen. All he seems to get for these crimes is a slap-on-the-wrist imprisonment.

Of course. He did what he was supposed to do, as god of Strife and Death.

and Shar didn't even recieve any sort of punishment for her hand in Mystra's death

Why would Shar be punished for doing exactly what she's supposed to do, promoting oblivion? The substance of all these complaints seems to be that Ao is supposed to be good. He isn't.

I find it hard to take the gods of Faerun seriously sometimes, since it seems like they don't act like gods,

There is certainly an undeniable mismatch between your concept of "gods" and the concept of "gods" in the Forgotten Realms, and, actually, every D&D setting I know of that has gods.

Edit: Oh, and Helm retained his godhood because Ao, in the interests of having someone block the ex-gods from going home, decided Helm's punishment would be to be forced to guard the outer planes from the ex-gods, and, afterward, to be widely resented by both the restored gods and the mortals who blamed him for the gods being forced to walk the land. Not because Ao decided to spare Helm from punishment when he punished all the others.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What makes you say Eberron 2.0?

[Aroka]

If your god of insanity, deception, and murder isn't insanely deceptively murdering everything, it's broken. Hope you've still got warranty on that.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

You're missing the point. She wanted her power back. She didn't want to get a message to Ao; she wanted to go home. And, like all the deities, she was unused to anyone saying No to her, and inclined to view it as inherently wrong.

That's no excuse for making a suicidal decision.

Because Ao isn't good.
...
Of course. He did what he was supposed to do, as god of Strife and Death.
...
Why would Shar be punished for doing exactly what she's supposed to do, promoting oblivion? The substance of all these complaints seems to be that Ao is supposed to be good. He isn't.

The substance of the complaints is that the gods politicking causes millions of mortals to get hurt. Mortals the gods are supposed to be serving because they depend upon those mortals for their power.

There is certainly an undeniable mismatch between your concept of "gods" and the concept of "gods" in the Forgotten Realms, and, actually, every D&D setting I know of that has gods.

What am I getting wrong then?

Edit: Oh, and Helm retained his godhood because Ao, in the interests of having someone block the ex-gods from going home, decided Helm's punishment would be to be forced to guard the outer planes from the ex-gods, and, afterward, to be widely resented by both the restored gods and the mortals who blamed him for the gods being forced to walk the land. Not because Ao decided to spare Helm from punishment when he punished all the others.

But he did his job without complaint.

[Kish]

The substance of the complaints is that the gods politicking causes millions of mortals to get hurt. Mortals the gods are supposed to be serving because they depend upon those mortals for their power.

Yes. Ao added the "your power will, from now on, be dependent on your worshipers" clause after the Time of Troubles, specifically because he was aggravated that all the gods--good and evil alike--tended to treat all mortals as chess pieces. Most of the gods found the entire idea revolting. ("Depend on mortals? Serve them?")

What am I getting wrong then?

You're expecting the God of Murder to consider millions of people, or other gods, being murdered a bad thing. You're expecting the God of Strife to get punished for promoting strife. So on and so forth with "destruction," "oblivion," etc.

[Aroka]

That's no excuse for making a suicidal decision.

She probably didn't. She may not have been cognizant of what her mortality meant (that would be a bit odd, admittedly, since Mystra specifically was raised from a mortal when Mystrul was destroyed by Karsus). A god stripped of godhood is going to have serious problems adjusting to the world not changing to suit her whims. (Anyway, I always got the imperssion that Helm was a bit overzealous about the protecting and saw it as more of a "Hey I've got these tabl-uurrgggghh" thing.)

The substance of the complaints is that the gods politicking causes millions of mortals to get hurt. Mortals the gods are supposed to be serving because they depend upon those mortals for their power.

I think you've got that the wrong way around; mortals serve deities. Traditionally on pain of pain and calamity, or at least in order to reap their blessings.

I do agree with the Tyr-Helm-Sune thing sounding like pure idiocy, but bad writers are going to be bad writers. Faerûn's deities are still pretty much what you found in ancient mythology, which is far more interesting than divine vending machines that never do a thing.

You're basically trying to apply modern real-world human ethics to Faerûn's deities, and that's got 3-4 things wrong with it (depending on the deity's alignment).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Some things are simply wrong. Murder is always wrong, regardless of the circumstances. Genocide, by extension, is equally wrong. I think most people would agree with me.

How is one supposed to play a proper paladin in FR when none of the gods seem to set the kind of examples paladins need. Mortal paladins make one little mistake and their lives are ruined. Gods make a mistake and millions of people die, and nobody cares.

[DeltaEmil]

So? Ao decided that there should be a god of murder, and that's it.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I just can't believe that it's possible to be a mortal in FR and be morally superior to the gods themselves.

[Aroka]

Some things are simply wrong. Murder is always wrong, regardless of the circumstances. Genocide, by extension, is equally wrong. I think most people would agree with me.

Okay, again: modern real-world human ethics.

Modern: The popular feeling that killing someone else is wrong is pretty new, historically. It's not even that widespread, and it goes in and out of fashion in any one region constantly. Real people don't set out to do "evil", they just do things they don't think are evil because they are somehow justified. The same goes for, yes, genocide. That's not a crime committed by an individual, ever - it's one committed by entire nations, peoples, or at least governments.

Real-World: D&D is built around playing a bunch of home-invading murderers who, usually, slaughter anyone - including other humans or "good" humanoids - who raise a hand against them.

Human: These are deities. What does a mortal life matter to them? It can like people and ants - those things are so far beneath them it's ridiculous to posit they're of comparable importance, at least individually. And besides, once they die, their souls go on to where they should be - often the deity's realm in the afterlife.

Ethics: Many of these deities are evil. They wouldn't care even if it wasn't for the above.

[Kish]

I just can't believe that it's possible to be a mortal in FR and be morally superior to the gods themselves.

Why would that be?

...In any D&D setting that has gods, it's possible to be a more moral person than most of the gods. Why are you expecting D&D gods to be particularly moral? What books have you been reading?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The idea that murder is wrong is a relatively new concept?

[DeltaEmil]

Why not? Perhaps that truly more moral paladin will one day become a better god than the one he served? Such things happen all the time in the Forgotten Realms.
The gods of Toril suck. They also die in masses whenever a new edition comes. Paladins in 3.x edition suck as well with their weak-ass powers, so being one is a form of self-punishment, especially in the world of the forgotten realms. Some deal with it, others fall and become lame-ass blackguards, or just die.

[Alleran]

It seems like throughout Faerun's history, the gods were arbitrarily set in charge of things and for the most part seem too focused on their own petty squables or pet projects, rather than providing emotional succor and a kind of community for their followers, which is what a religion is.

This is in fact the exact reason why Ao instigated the Time of Troubles to begin with. They were supposed to monitor their portfolios and maintain the balance, but they were arrogant, and weren't doing their jobs. So first he booted them down to spend time with the mortals that they had been neglecting. Then, when all that they could think about was getting their power back and going home by getting him the Tablets of Fate, it wound up being a mortal who got Ao the Tablets. And Ao was so disgusted that he just shattered the Tablets (it being originally Myrkul and Bane who stole them, thinking that it might weaken Ao... which it didn't) and told them that the entire reason the Tablets existed was to remind the gods that they were servants of mortals and maintainers of the Balance, not rulers. So he did things another way. He made their strength and power dependent on mortal worship (Mystra is the only possible exemption because of her actually being the Weave, but she does still gain or lose power from worship as well as that). And the gods howled in fury. They had no choice, though, and presumably they learned a lesson.

Mystra has been made mortal, and she's up against Helm, who not only the only remaining god, so going up against him is suicidal, but also completely trustworthy and loyal, so she likely'd be able to trust him.

Mystra had gained a good portion of her power back when she took her avatar, so she thought she might be a match for Helm (who would be as nothing to her if she had her full strength). As it turned out, she wasn't.

Helm even offers to relay Mystra's information to Ao, but Mystra, for some unfathomable reason, decides her information is too important to trust HELM with and attacks him, getting herself killed and passing the torch on to Midnight.

She wanted to go home. There are also hints that she was already setting things up for Midnight to take over. In fact, Ed Greenwood has compared Mystra to being a bit like a computer at times in how she is the Weave of magic. Every so often, a restart does them good, rather than just constantly running for century upon century. It's not quite the same, but there are similarities

The second is the courtship of Sune described in the Grand History of the Realms. I'm not sure where to start with this.

My advice would be to not bother. It was a pointless gesture, ridiculously out of character, and was just done in order to set things up for the Sellplague that brought around 4th edition.

Why does Ao keep these guys around?

Why not? Ao isn't good. Nor is he evil. He just is. He has a job to do, and in that fashion he's a bit like a traffic cop. As long as a god isn't upsetting the Balance that he has laid down or failing to do the job their portfolios set for them, he's not going to interfere with them.

Bane and Myrkul stole the Tablets of Fate, and while they were punished with the rest of the gods, and Myrkul was killed, Bane ended up becoming the Comeback King of the Realms, and many of Myrkul's old creations (The Wall of the Faithless, the Crown of Horns and the Spirit-Eater Curse) still survive and are even supported by the rest of the pantheon.

Myrkul did actually survive, or a fragment of him did, existing within the Crown of Horns. Bane returned because he used Iyachtu Xvim to jumpstart his reincarnation - he's like Bane 2.0 just in the same fashion as Midnight became Mystra 2.0, or how Bhaal tried to reincarnate as Bhaal 2.0 through the use of the Bhaalspawn (but was prevented from doing so, obviously). By investing some of his essence into Xvim, Xvim was "metamorphosised" into Bane at some preset time. It was getting around Ao saying that he would leave Bane dead. Ao didn't recombine his essence to resurrect him (like he did for IIRC Torm - he rezzed Torm because the god died fulfilling his portfolio and thus his part of the Balance, having "learned his lesson"), he did that all on his own. Of course, there are also some heavy non-disclosure agreements surrounding his rebirth, which has prevented it from being fully explained.

Evil gods seem to exist solely to make devastating bids for Realm-domination, heedless of the destruction they cause to both the people who they command and the people they seek to subjugate, and the gods of good seem either ineffectual or apathetic to these things.

Eh, not quite. All the gods act in concert with their portfolios. This by its very nature means that Bane will always attempt to promote tyranny and gain control of things. Taking over the entire realms is the ultimate expression of acting in concert with his portfolio of tyranny, just as the good gods act in concert with their own portfolios to stop him (e.g. Tyr being justice-related means he will oppose Bane). Similarly, Cyric's portfolio is to spread strife, lies and hatred. As long as he's doing that, he's upholding his portfolio and Ao won't interfere. If he turns into sweetness and light and stops maintaining his portfolio, of course, then Big Daddy will step in and slap him down, because he won't be in concert with his appointed duties. He also can be held up if he doesn't spread strife equally (e.g. he was almost demoted and destroyed at the conclusion of the Avatar saga when only his own followers were causing strife, and then only amongst each other - he has to do it to everybody).

Mystra is similar - she promotes the spread of magic, used equally by all. She can be whatever alignment she likes (and is/was NG), but she can't withhold magic from evil spellcasters and favour good ones. She's NG because that alignment best matches with her doctrine of spreading magic around, and she instructs her servants to spread it as well (which they do in their own way). One example is that giant black dragon dracolich (Dhaurdragoth?). One would think that he'd be chased after by the Chosen, but she has instructed them to leave the thing alone, because he helps invent and spread new magic. Same deal with Larloch (though there's also something going on there that nobody is quite sure about... except Larloch himself). She prefers good servants (and particularly good-aligned Chosen) because generally, she has found that good individuals are better at spreading stuff around than evil ones. She's had evil Chosen in the past, but found that they tended to keep power to themselves instead of spreading it around, so she doesn't bother with evil ones nowadays.

The point was also raised with Kelemvor, who initially treated the dead unfairly based on his previous actions while alive (and it was Cyric who pointed it out to him). He started treating everybody equally, and became a better god for it.