halfling paladin/archer 3.5

[heymejack]

So I’m making a Halfling archer/paladin. he’ll mostly use the bow from distance, but charge in when the situation calls for it. DM is letting me use a Deinonychus, modified to be a medium creature, as a mount. Calling it a raptor. Anyway I’m definitely going fighter/paladin/Halfling outrider, but that only takes me to 17. I’d like ideas on my feats, maybe equipment, and definitely what to be for my last few levels. Right now the plan is fighter, but if anyone knows a prestige class that would be good, I’d be interested. Something that helps with the bow maybe? Order of the bow initiate would be sweet, except it doesn’t improve the bow’s full attack, only really helps if you’re doing one attack.

1 fighter: point blank, rapid shot
2 paladin
3 paladin: mounted combat
4 paladin
5 paladin
6 paladin: mounted archery
7 paladin
8 outrider
9 outrider: ride-by attack
10 outrider
11 outrider
12 outrider: spirited charge
13 outrider
14 outrider
15 outrider: precise shot? Woodland archer?
16 outrider
17 outrider
18 ?
19 ?
20 ?

[Volos]

Greyguard to make your paladin vows a little more loose? Ranged Smite Evil as a feat, and then Greyguard lets you smite Chaos and eventually smite Anything (yes, even Lawful Good). Other then that, get a rocking bow?

[heymejack]

what book is greygaurd from? and what book is ranged smite evil in? i was looking at adding wild plains outrider. that would mean i remove some paladin levels, 3. most likely, since i'm only really doing it to improve the mount.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Greygaurd is complete scoundrel. I find wild plains outrider to be good only if you are using it to sneak around and long distance travel. Letting your mount use your ranks instead of its own which is harder for you being a paladin since they are cross classed. But greygaurd for versatility is always a plus however IIRC they don't get increased mount stuff which seems to be your deal.

[Greenish]

Grey Guard is just 5/10 casting, I seem to recall, and paladins have some decent spells with Spell Compendium, not to mention autoquicken for 'em (Battle Blessing from Comp. Champ.).

You could try to get PF paladin, or just PF smite, which works with ranged attacks by default (in addition to being much more useful than the sad, pathetic single attack one in PHB).

[heymejack]

sorry, what does pf mean? pf paladin? not familiar with that.

[Greenish]

sorry, what does pf mean? pf paladin? not familiar with that.

Pathfinder. It's version of 3.5.

[TooManyBadgers]

Greyguard is terrible. Don't take it.
If you're going to play a paladin but don't want to be Lawful Good, use a Paladin of Freedom or Tyranny. Don't burn 10 levels in a class whose defining class features are lost caster levels and "you don't need to listen to the class fluff anymore, lol."

Pathfinder Paladin is the way to go, if you can. It brings Paladin from a 2-level dip for martial clerics to an actually interesting/playable class.

Or see if you can make a substitution along the lines of the RotW Elf Paladin's Ranged Smite -- it's hardly an unbalanced alternative (compare +level to damage on one ranged attack to +Chax2+levelx3 to damage on a power attacking mounted charge).

I don't like Halfling Outrider levels because they don't really make you better at doing anything on a horse, unless I'm forgetting something major. Paladin levels actually do, via their spell options (see the Spell Compendium and Complete Champion for more details).

[heymejack]

seems like the advantages are being able to turn in a charge, and being able to charge over uneven ground/through the squares of allies are both very sweet features of the outrider. plus the full attack without penalties for being mounted.

at this point i'm thinking about going
1 ranger (for the skills, plus track as the req for wild plains outrider) point blank shot
2 fighter (mounted combat)
3-6 paladin (mounted archery, ride by attack)
7 halfling outrider
8 wild plains outrider
9 wild plains outrider (for the +10 to speed)(precise shot)
10 ranger (rapid shot)
11-19 halfling outrider (spirited charge. but then what? woodland archery? ranged smite attack? what to do with the feats? what book is ranged smite attack as a feat in?
20 fighter? seems like its worth getting the extra feat for the second level of fighter, but again, what should the feats be?


not exactly sure of the skill breakdown, of course at first I would just be making sure I hit my Prestige class requirements, but after that, seems like i should be maxing ride and spot as much as possible, followed by hide and move silent as much as possible while cross classing. add some sneaking items and some strong weapons, and you've got a stealthy archer/charger with a full strength paladin mount. seems fun to me. how can i make it better?

[Soranar]

if you insist on being an archer (with an actual bow, which means you need STR , DEX, CON some WIS and CHA) as a paladin, that's very difficult to pull off

you could use a crossbow instead (with the feat crossbow sniper), to add half your Dex bonus to damage (thus making STR a dump stat)

you can use the paladin variant from Complete champion for bonus feats and drop spellcasting (4 bonus feats from a list, which include riding feats)
that way you can drop Wisdom

there's a paladin variant on SRD (from unearthed arcana) which let's you trade turn undead, lay on hands and remove disease for a ranger's favored enemy feature (restricted list but it's good with undead, abberrations, monstrous humanoids, all the most common enemies outside of humans)

This can let you drop Cha to more reasonable levels and you'd only lose a bonus to saves (which should be high already with a halfling)

you still have smite, the bonus to saves and the mount

A decent class for a paladin is also ranger , through the devoted tracker feat (paladin and ranger level stack for smite, your animal companion can be your mount which stacks the bonuses)

And like paladin the ranger can take a variant that drops spellcasting for bonus feats (this time archery focused, mostly)

so something like paladin 5 (for maximum efficiency) + ranger 4 gives you maximum smite, favored enemies like a ranger level 9, a bonus feat from ranger weapon style + 1 bonus feat from dropping spellcasting for each class (roughly once every 4 levels) and all of this helps you qualify for halfling outrider (through a ranger's skillpoints) and you have maximum BAB

you can then take animal bond to boost your animal companion level higher than 4 (so mount like a paladin level 5 + bonuses from a ranger level 7) and some claim that outrider pumps both classes at once (doubling it's effect on your mount) but I find that cheesy

[heymejack]

well, cheesy or not, Complete Warrior says explicitly that outrider levels stack with druid, ranger, and paladin levels for purposes of animal companions or mounts. same is true for Complete Adventurer.

I do not, however, understand how you're combining ranger animal companion levels with paladin mount levels. seems like those two things are separate/different things. is it through a feat that you get that? and if so, how does it work, does every 2 levels of ranger count as 1 level of paladin for the mount?

The paladin and ranger variants in complete champion are cool, but i have no intention of taking enough levels of either class for spellcasting to even come into play. the variant gets the first bonus feat at 4th, and I'm not going that high, the only reason I'm even taking levels of paladin is to boost the mount the extra 3 levels, which i can't get from either of my outrider classes.

as far as ability scores go, it'll be dex, followed very closely by str and con, and whatever's left will go into the intellectual stats. a little bit of each would be nice, for various reasons (skill points, will saves, and lay on hands), but the dex i need for my main attack, and the strength will still be useful with the composite shortbow and the occasional ride-by charge. constitution, well, of course, of course.

[riddles]

ranger 4/paladin 5/halfling outrider 10/wild plains outrider 1

the key to the build being mentioned to you is the devoted tracker feat, which lets you designate your animal companion as your special mount and have bonuses to the paladin's mount added to the bonuses of your animal companion mount.

halfling outrider specifically says that it adds to paladin AND druid levels. which means 10 levels of halfling outrider gives in this build 15 levels of paladin bonuses to your 12 levels of druid bonuses on any given animal. that equates to:
+16HD, +18Nat.Armour, +8STR, +4DEX, INT9 (so the 5 bonus tricks from the druid levels actually mean squat as it will be more inteeligent than your half orc barbarian friend), multiattack, improved evasion, devotion, shared saving throws, +10ft movement speed, SR 10

even your common riding dog is now an 18HD monster with a minimum strength of 23, minimum dex of 19 and a minimum AC of 26. along with feats, which means it can be an ubercharging beast of death.


now, there are ways to optimise this (beastmaster levels instead of ranger levels, getting a baby gold dragon with draconic mount) to make your mount a truly fearsome opponent. but to do this, you sacrifice your own character's ability to do just about anything.

with the ranger 4/paladin 5 entry, you can pick yourself up some archery feats, or the mounted combat melee feats, to make you less of a backhacker and more of a mighty hero.

i haven't read the rules, but the wild cohort feat published on the wizard's website may also count as an animal companion for the purposes of this, in which case, you need only paladin levels and the pre-requisites for the devoted tracker feat to get into halfling outrider (or another prestige class which advances the paladin's mount) early

[Greenish]

if you insist on being an archer (with an actual bow, which means you need STR , DEX, CON some WIS and CHA) as a paladin, that's very difficult to pull off

Serenity & Zen Archery: you need wis, con and strength.

[Fearan]

Maybe Zen Archery? You know, for lessening the MAD?

[gallagher]

instead of fighter, and instead of going more than 5 levels of paladin, you should go paladin fo freedom 5/ranger5 (for archery)/outrider10

but why ranger? you have the feat:devoted tracker. ranger and pally now stack for your mount and animal companion, and they are now the same thing. you dont have to summon it anymore because it is an animal companion

[Ravens_cry]

I second (third, forth?) Pathfinder Paladin for a halfling archer paladin. One, smite works at range by default. Two, Smite lasts till the target is dead or you rest. Three, they are less MAD, not needing wisdom anymore.
I so want to play this some time. I may not be as good as a ranger normally, not getting archer feats without prerequisites, but I sting hella hard with a smite, bypassing damage reduction, the bane of the archer archytype, AND having damage boosted.
Fiends shall fear my bow!

[heymejack]

looks like i'm certainly going to do the devoted tracker thing then. don't know exactly how the dm is going to make me combine the levels to get mounts and animal companions combined, but i'll try to squeeze in as many levels of wild plains outrider in as i can, in addition to trying to get a couple of levels of fighter in there, too, for the extra feats.

he might let me get away with

ranger2, paladin5or6, halfling outrider 10, and then some combo of fighter and wild plains outrider for the other 2 or 3 levels.

mounted combat
mounted archery
devoted tracker
point blank
precise
ride by attack
spirited charge
improved mounted archery (if 1 level of fighter)
(some other feat, if there's a 2nd level of fighter.)

that would give me an effective paladin level of 15 and an effective druid level of 6 (2 levels of ranger and 10 levels of outrider add up to 12, divided by 2 because its RANGER levels, not druid levels) still a very good mount.

with the system we use (house rules) these would be my starting stats (after racial adjustments)

str 14
dex 20
con 16
int 12
wis 12
cha 14

[Yeturs]

Would zen archery work for you? Makes ranged attacks based off wisdom instead of dex.

Might not be optimized but, might work thematically.

[heymejack]

nah, part of the reason the halfling is good for this is the dex bonus.

[gorfnab]

How about this variant of Supermount?

LG Strongheart Halfling
1. Paladin - Mounted Combat, Track
2. Paladin
3. Paladin - Skill Focus: Handle Animal (prereq for Beast Master)
4. Paladin
5. Paladin
6. Beastmaster - Devoted Tracker
7. Beastmaster
8. Wild Plains Outrider
9. Wild Plains Outrider - Mounted Archery
10. Wild Plains Outrider
11. Halfling Outrider
12. Halfling Outrider - Natural Bond
13. Halfling Outrider
14. Halfling Outrider
15. Halfling Outrider - Ride By Attack
16. Halfling Outrider
17. Halfling Outrider
18. Halfling Outrider - Spirited Charge
19. Halfling Outrider
20. Halfling Outrider

Not as many available feats but you end up with
Special Mount: 18th level Paladin = Paladin 5 + Wild Plains 3 + Halfling 10
Animal Companion: 18th level Druid = Beast Master 5 + Natural Bond 3 + Halfling 10
This nets you full Mount and Animal Companion benefits, eventually.
The archery can be made up with a Splitting (CoR) Precise (MIC) bow.

See also: Supermount!

If you would like a chart of the animal companion mount progression for this build I could write one up.

[heymejack]

i think i can work that out, thanks though. where are strongheart halflings from?

[gorfnab]

i think i can work that out, thanks though. where are strongheart halflings from?

Forgotten Realms: Campaign Setting

[heymejack]

wow, strongheart is pretty sweet, especially with the paladin, since i'm still getting my charisma (which'll be +2 at first) to my saves.

[Dr.Epic]

Greyguard to make your paladin vows a little more loose? Ranged Smite Evil as a feat, and then Greyguard lets you smite Chaos and eventually smite Anything (yes, even Lawful Good). Other then that, get a rocking bow?

Yeah, definitely take Ranged Smite Evil if you're going archer paladin.

[heymejack]

not too worried about ranged sneak attack, I like the idea of him flying through at high speed with the lance and landing the smite.

DM isn't going to let outrider stack both mount and animal companion at the same time with devoted tracker. fair enough. that does change the build though, probably means

1-2ranger
3-8paladin
9-10 wild plains outrider
11-20 halfling outrider

with a strongheart halfling, that gives me the following feats:

1 point blank and precise shot, plus track (ranger)
2 rapid shot (ranger)
3 mounted combat
6 mounted archery
9 ride by attack
12 spirited charge
15 improved mounted archery
18 ?

[Sinfonian]

Serenity & Zen Archery: you need wis, con and strength.

I agree with this. Reducing MAD is never a bad thing. I can't remember the citation for Serenity offhand, but I think it's from one of the Dragon magazines...after checking it's #306. Here's a like to the feat.

You also might want to look at Eldariel's Archery handbook. The section on Mounted Archery is one of the parts that is complete. It also has pretty good information for most of your archery needs.

[Dr Gunsforhands]

My best random recommendation is potions or scrolls of reduce person. It shrinks you down so you are harder to hit and better at aiming, but the second the arrow or bolt flies from you it increases to normal size to deal regular damage. Since it looks like you want to be mounted, your mount will let you stay fast.

[heymejack]

that is a good idea. think i should shrink the mount too? wouldn't hurt his speed, would it?