[4e] Limiting divine characters

[RebelRogue]

I've been planning to run a PbP 4e game based on adapting the OD&D Mystara modules in the Blood Brethren Trilogy (Nightwail, Nightrage, Nightstorm). In fact, I still need some players, so if you're interested, please stop reading right now and go here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164758

Now that the shameless advertising is done I can get to my real question






A big plot point in these modules is the fact, that cleric characters (and more generally for the modern editions, Divine classes) will at some point feel severed from the presence of their Immortal patrons (deities). In the context of the original rules, this means, that they may only cast spells of spell level 1 and 2. While I think this is a great dramatic tool, game-mechanically it is unfair to the players of divine characters. So what I am looking for are ways to somehow tone down the use of divine powers, while still giving the characters some kind of mechanical compensation. Some thoughts of mine:

1) I plan on changing only the rules for use of Daily Attack powers; it is understood that the devotion of the characters still gives them access to lesser Prayers (modelled by 1st and 2nd level spells in the original rules).

2) There needs to be some kind of compensation for the loss of mechanical power.

One specific implementation of this idea I've been toying with is this: When using a Divine Daily Attack power, the character needs to concentrate hard in order to channel the divine power. This means that he or she becomes Dazed until the start of his or her next turn, effectively ending the current turn after the use of the power (much like charging, but with the additonal drawbacks of being dazed). As an alternative, the attack role is made with a -2 penalty. To compensate, the character gets a free Feat or the Adept Power feat without the usual prereqs - however, if the character is already multiclassing he has to choose the power from his secondary class and similarly, if he ever takes a multiclass Feat it has to correspond to the class for which he has power swapped (unless he's a bard).

That's just an initial thought, but honestly, it sounds a little complicated, not to mention potentially annoying for the player. Any comments or alternate solutions are very welcome

[Tengu_temp]

I can't see this being implemented without annoying the players. Your best bet is to disallow using divine classes, and simply do as you want with the NPCs.

[RebelRogue]

I can't see this being implemented without annoying the players. Your best bet is to disallow using divine classes, and simply do as you want with the NPCs.

I've explcitly warned the players, that there could be some altering of the way Divine powers work during the course of the adventure. However, I'm afraid you may be right... One possibility is to play the "PCs are special card", so they still get to use these powers as usual, mechanically. Roleplaying-wise they should feel spiritually cut off from their deities. But if someone has a clean, simple solution that is not too disrupting, I'd still like to hear.

[Starsinger]

Remove access to Channel Divinity. It's not huge, but it's noticeable.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I've explcitly warned the players, that there could be some altering of the way Divine powers work during the course of the adventure. However, I'm afraid you may be right... One possibility is to play the "PCs are special card", so they still get to use these powers as usual, mechanically. Roleplaying-wise they should feel spiritually cut off from their deities. But if someone has a clean, simple solution that is not too disrupting, I'd still like to hear.

I like Starsinger's approach.

In the alternative, how about have the Divine PCs feel the upcoming Divine Power Outage and receive a vision of a special Ritual they would need to undergo to remain their deities' Last Connection To Earth. Make the completion of this Ritual an adventure in itself and you not only serve you plot point, but you make the Divine PCs feel more important instead of gimped. Tie it around the time you're planning on going Paragon to model the "boost" given by being a Chosen of their deity as a Paragon Path.

Plus, since there is no mechanical power boost outside of normal progression, none of the other PCs are going to get annoyed.

[RebelRogue]

Remove access to Channel Divinity. It's not huge, but it's noticeable.

I like this, I must say - clean, simple and relatively minor. It also removes the headache of finding Feats specific to Mystaran faiths.

I'm just wondering, if I should offer some kind of mechanical compensation to the player in the name of fairness. A minor skill check bonus or something along those lines.

Edit: Great idea OrcaleHunter, but in this case, it's actually a point that it's going to be rather sudden and unexpected.

[Kurald Galain]

When using a Divine Daily Attack power, the character needs to concentrate hard in order to channel the divine power. This means that he or she becomes Dazed until the start of his or her next turn,

That doesn't do much. People can simply do minor, move, and then attack, which means the daze doesn't limit them.

It depends a lot on the specifics. What level are you playing at? Do you have the kind of players who get upset at every perceived imbalance, or the kind that doesn't mind if one PC is stronger? Do you want an actual crunch hindrance, or something mostly fluff that sounds limiting but really isn't?

[RebelRogue]

That doesn't do much. People can simply do minor, move, and then attack, which means the daze doesn't limit them.

It depends a lot on the specifics. What level are you playing at? Do you have the kind of players who get upset at every perceived imbalance, or the kind that doesn't mind if one PC is stronger? Do you want an actual crunch hindrance, or something mostly fluff that sounds limiting but really isn't?

The idea was, that it should indeed be somewhat minor. The CA and lack of flanking should still be annoying. However, I've pretty much decided to go with StarSinger's idea.

And it's level 5. No idea how the players feel yet...

[Kurald Galain]

It depends on the class whether they actually use Channel Divinity. For instance, the Cleric's is rarely ever used in play except if you're fighting undead, or if you've got one of those deity feats.

[LibraryOgre]

It depends on the class whether they actually use Channel Divinity. For instance, the Cleric's is rarely ever used in play except if you're fighting undead, or if you've got one of those deity feats.

Simple solution, really: Make sure to throw in some Undead encounters if you're taking away their ability. Make them feel the loss of their deity.

[dsmiles]

Personally, I wouldn't change the module in any way (except to update stat blocks, xp, and treasure). Let them really feel the loss of their deities.

[Analytica]

How about this, then: the PCs are not affected. They are chosen by their deities to fix this. HOWEVER, to affect that, these deities cannot grant power to other followers that request it. Each time a divine power or ritual is used, the characters might get visions of children dying because the village priest cannot pray for their healing, holy warriors' weapons and shields becoming brittle and breaking, and so forth.

Each failure in their mission is a precious blessing squandered, and each success comes at a terrible price.

[Grumman]

How about this, then: the PCs are not affected. They are chosen by their deities to fix this. HOWEVER, to affect that, these deities cannot grant power to other followers that request it. Each time a divine power or ritual is used, the characters might get visions of children dying because the village priest cannot pray for their healing, holy warriors' weapons and shields becoming brittle and breaking, and so forth.

Each failure in their mission is a precious blessing squandered, and each success comes at a terrible price.

These visions are a bad idea, as a deity wasting scarce divine power to hurt the morale of their most trusted servants makes no sense.

[cupkeyk]

How about limiting them to weapon keyword prayers. Implement keyword prayers work only partially (half damage, save ends effects last only until the end of your next turn, end of next turn end at start of your next turn, start of your next turn end at end of targets turn)?

[Analytica]

These visions are a bad idea, as a deity wasting scarce divine power to hurt the morale of their most trusted servants makes no sense.

Assuming it can avoid it. If every single divine conduit is mostly blocked, the deity can trickle only a little power through each. So to get the power to the chosen ones, it must be channeled through the other servants as they try, using their sincere faith and aspiration to succeed, to have their prayers answered. Once in the mortal realm, the power is then whisked away to the chosen ones, but carries the emotional resonance and impressions of the original act of faith that was used to call it. That is, the visions might be an unintended side effect that the deity is now powerless to stop.

In fact, it might not be able to communicate with any mortal except through fragmentary, distorted visions...

[Devils_Advocate]

Remove access to Channel Divinity. It's not huge, but it's noticeable.

That sounds appropriate, since, based on my admittedly limited understanding, the power of divine characters is mostly internal in 4E. But Channel Divinity, I assume, calls upon some sort of external force. At least, it seems like it must be pretty misnamed if it doesn't.

[Swordgleam]

Removing CD is good, and if they follow a deity with a decent CD (Melora, Raven Queen) they'll feel it, but it won't make a huge difference. If you want something a little more impactful, take away dailies but give them something else in return.

Maybe their god's absence causes them to lose it, and they get some berserker daily rages. Maybe the lack of divine power sets free the power that was in their blood all along, and they get sorc dailies. Or maybe they devote themselves to their god in a new way with the bard's power of song. Similar to your idea of a free multiclass feat, but a little extra boost that I think makes it more balanced.

[Mando Knight]

It depends on the class whether they actually use Channel Divinity. For instance, the Cleric's is rarely ever used in play except if you're fighting undead, or if you've got one of those deity feats.

Or if you took Healer's Mercy instead of Turn Undead, and have a really reckless party and/or a DM who makes tough encounters.

[Swordgleam]

Or if you took Healer's Mercy instead of Turn Undead, and have a really reckless party and/or a DM who makes tough encounters.

Or if you have Melora's Tide and a dragonborn fighter. Or Cleave for Clerics (the Raven Queen's CD) and a nice DM.

[Starsinger]

And Radiant Fist monks get to cherry pick a single Channel Divinity... also! That's it! Combined with Oracle Hunter's idea (any Divine PCs are special) make Divine multiclassing unavailable.

[Mando Knight]

Or if you have Melora's Tide and a dragonborn fighter. Or Cleave for Clerics (the Raven Queen's CD) and a nice DM.

Those are the deity feats, which Kurald mentioned.

[Rad]

From what I saw you're starting the adventure in Glantri, where being a divinely-empowered character is a criminal offense punished by death (unless they changed that over the years).
So I guess the "no cleric" option sounds to be the best one. Just remove the "special warrant" option that you offered.

EDIT: unless you're playing post-Wrath of the Immortals events, during which the ban was relaxed. But you've mentioned the broken lands (not the great crater) so I think you're not.

[Leolo]

A possibility would be to say:

All powers related with the divine power source (or a special keyword like radiant or heal) does not work any longer.

And - bring in - a holy object (maybe an artifact) that let the powers work again normally but will disappear after a certain amount of time (the final climax of your story). It could be the holy light of the goddess, a part of her power implanted in a beautiful art object or whatever matches to the religion of the characters. You see the light fading within it without the presence of the goddess. Maybe you will have only days or week before it is without any sign that it has been a part of her and all your power fades?

This will not change anything mechanically for your players (or at least it will change it only until they have found the artifact), and you will not have to change the abilities they have. But they will feel that the world has changed, they will have pressure to solve the problem.

And they might have to make tactical decissions like: "Well - our paladin and our cleric should not part, because only one can hold the figurine of our goddess"

Also you could find story arcs that relate to this artifact. The teams cleric is the only cleric in the world who is still able to bring lord Noric back to life? A evil group of thieves wants to steal it?

There are many possibilities to use this situation.

[RebelRogue]

From what I saw you're starting the adventure in Glantri, where being a divinely-empowered character is a criminal offense punished by death (unless they changed that over the years).
So I guess the "no cleric" option sounds to be the best one. Just remove the "special warrant" option that you offered.

EDIT: unless you're playing post-Wrath of the Immortals events, during which the ban was relaxed. But you've mentioned the broken lands (not the great crater) so I think you're not.

I'm aware, and I've mentioned it in the thread. However, since only the very start of the adventure takes place there, and since the PCs are specifically there to help, I've simply decided that all have such a warrant if they want to (hopefully, they do!)

And thanks for all the ideas guys, but I've decided on just removing Channel Divinity (as I said, I want it to be minor) and compensating by giving a +2 bonus in a chosen skill. The campaign hasn't got too much focus on combat anyway, so it may not be too bad of a trade after all.

[TheEmerged]

One specific implementation of this idea I've been toying with is this: When using a Divine Daily Attack power, the character needs to concentrate hard in order to channel the divine power. This means that he or she becomes Dazed until the start of his or her next turn, effectively ending the current turn after the use of the power (much like charging, but with the additonal drawbacks of being dazed).

I believe Kurald already pointed out the problem there. There is a new (to me at least) mechanic in Psionic Power that might work better -- several of the new Ardent powers require the user to forfeit their next standard action. Perhaps you could do this with minor & move.

[The New Bruceski]

Why compensate? This is a single adventure, and the loss of the Gods is SUPPOSED to sting.

You said this is a 7th level adventure originally? At that level in OD&D a cleric's losing two levels of spells. It hurts, but it's not like he has 9th level ones. At 4e 5th level I'd say divine classes lose the 5th level daily, and either lose the level 3 encounter or it becomes a daily. With the game having less combat than normal, it's even less of a penalty.

This isn't a long-running campaign where you ruin a character forever, it's a specific adventure where the story has a mechanical effect to add impact.