Why is the cleric tier 1???

[Kaeso]

I'll probably be rediculed as somebody who doesn't wholly understand the rules but why is the cleric considered to be on par with the druid and the wizard? Let's put all their world-breaking features in a small schedule.

Wizard:
This class can, as Braveheart charmingly put it "shoot fire out of his eyes and thunder out of his butt". Besides that he can reshape an entire battlefield, reduce the thoughest fighter to a mere pile of wimpyness, summon demons to do his bidding, travel around the world and even the planar system with just a few fancy handsigns, predict the future, shapeshift and even stop time (I've heard rumours that they can make themselves immortal but I have no idea how it works. If anybody knows it, please explain it).

Druid:
Somebody on these forums (I can't remember who sadly ) called this class "A bear that rides a bear while summoning bears". This already makes him a force to be reckoned with, but he can also cast very powerful and useful spells.

Cleric:
The cleric can use the famous Divine Metamagic trick to become a formidable fighter and he has some spells. These spells may be useful but lack the oomph of the wizard's spell list (it consists of mostly buffs and heals, with the odd utility or direct damage spell), and the druid can shapeshift into something that's just as strong as or even stronger than a buffed up cleric and use an animal companion.

While I do appreciate the Cleric and see that he's a very strong and potent character, I don't think he should be a tier 1 class, most likely med to high tier 2. I'm no expert on DnD however and I'd like the more experienced Playgrounders to explain why a cleric is considered to be (roughly) evenly matched with the druid and wizard.

[TooManyBadgers]

I saw a pretty good summary of what the Cleric can do pretty recently.

Oh, here it is:

This class can, as Braveheart charmingly put it "shoot fire out of his eyes and thunder out of his butt". Besides that he can reshape an entire battlefield, reduce the thoughest fighter to a mere pile of wimpyness, summon demons to do his bidding, travel around the world and even the planar system with just a few fancy handsigns, predict the future, shapeshift and even stop time (I've heard rumours that they can make themselves immortal but I have no idea how it works. If anybody knows it, please explain it).

EDIT:
And pretty much all the prepared casters have access to one anothers' lists with things like domains/calling/wish/miracle/summoning/binding/polymorph/endless splatbook expansion.

[This is where the Druid's actually at a disadvantage, despite its really big numbers.]

[jiriku]

Yup. Cleric spells can do just about anything that druid and wizard spells can do. Summoning? Check? Flight? Check. Invisibility? Check. Teleportation and planar travel? Check. Divine the future? Check. Bind demons? Check. Kill with a word, and cripple with a gesture? Check. And check, check, check, all the way down the line.

[PId6]

A cleric is a prepared caster that has a great spell list. That, by itself, is enough to make it tier 1. The fact that it can make those spells last all day (DMM) and expand its spell list even further for all the best wizard spells (domains) are merely secondary, just like Animal Companion and Wild Shape are secondary to the druid's tier level.

[Greenish]

Prepared caster who can pick from all the spells on what is arguably the second most powerful list in the game (and then some, thanks to domains). Solid chassis. Turn Undead for DMM, Devotions, free undead minions and more. Great splatbook support in feats, AFCs, spells and PrCs.

[Kaeso]

Yup. Cleric spells can do just about anything that druid and wizard spells can do. Summoning? Check? Flight? Check. Invisibility? Check. Teleportation and planar travel? Check. Divine the future? Check. Bind demons? Check. Kill with a word, and cripple with a gesture? Check. And check, check, check, all the way down the line.

Could you elaborate on the bold points?

[Greenish]

Could you elaborate on the bold points?

You cast the appropriate spell, the effect happens. (Fly and teleport are available from Travel Domain, while Invisibility is from Trickery. They're perhaps the best core domains.)

[Edit]: And obviously, you can get flight from level 1 with Animal Devotion.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Could you elaborate on the bold points?

Travel domain for Flight and Teleportation. Several domains get Invisibility.

And this is assuming you don't get into Magic domain Anyspell cheese.

Basically, the Cleric can do everything, at the same time. It can be the beatstick with Divine Power/Righteous Might and DMM Persist. It can be the boomstick with the right domains or Anyspell cheese. It can be the Magical Utility Belt with Anyspell or Magic Domain. It can be the Skillmonkey with Charm Person and Detect Traps spells. Or just have the Kobold domain. It can be DPS with Polycheese and Arrow Demon. And, of course, it can also heal and buff.

In short, it doesn't need to choose what it can do. It can simply say 'yes, all of the above'.

[TooManyBadgers]

And thanks to Complete Champion, domain choice isn't a permanent decision -- it can be swapped around with one level 2 spell slot.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And thanks to Complete Champion, domain choice isn't a permanent decision -- it can be swapped around with one level 2 spell slot.

And with... was it Magic of Ebberon?... you can pick up a nearly-full casting PrC which gives you a bonus domain every level.

[jiriku]

Air walk is on the cleric list, along with animate dead (for a flying zombie creature). Alter self (for a flying form), fly, teleport and invisibility are on domain lists. Comb through additional splatbooks and you'll find ways to spontaneously convert your prepared spells into spells of your domain, so you can cast domain spells repeatedly if you're willing to invest resources in doing so. Don't have enough domains to get all the spells you want? Prestige classes offer the opportunity for you to easily pick up 1-3 more.

[Fax Celestis]

You cast the appropriate spell, the effect happens. (Fly and teleport are available from Travel Domain, while Invisibility is from Trickery. They're perhaps the best core domains.)

[Edit]: And obviously, you can get flight from level 1 with Animal Devotion.

Don't forget the Magic domain. And don't forget Customize Domain, the biggest bruisers in that feat being Luck ("...spells that allow a bonus on a d20 roll..." fits a lot of things), Magic (any kind of spell, really?), Protection, Travel, and Trickery.

Prestige classes offer the opportunity for you to easily pick up 1-3 more.

Or, you know, that one from Faiths of Eberron that gives you nine domains.

[Greenish]

And with... was it Magic of Ebberon?... you can pick up a nearly-full casting PrC which gives you a bonus domain every level.

Faiths of Eberron, I guess. Seems more like the place for Sovereign Speaker.

[Edit]:

Don't forget the Magic domain

True, it's good too. Though Magic domain doesn't have Anyspell, that's in Spell Domain. (Unless something was changed while I wasn't looking.)

[Eldariel]

Air Walk, much? Cleric is really a strange animal; its power is based on three things. Basically:
- Spellcasting
- Domains
- Turning

Now, spells are obvious: Clerics get some absolute allstars like Silence on level 2, Plane Shift on level 5 (useful both, offensively and defensively) on level 5, Holy Word-line on level 7, Miracle, Gate & Astral Projection on level 9. That's the really good ones.

Then they have Heal, Giant Vermin, Wall of Stone, Imbue With Spell Ability, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Antilife Shell, Wind Walk, Word of Recall, Magic Vestment, Heroes' Feast, Death Ward, Magic Circle Against Alignment, Protection From Alignment, Spell Resistance, Wind Wall, Summon Monster-line and dozens more as merely "good" spells. Now, Wizard has a better spell list; aside from the Cleric-unique spells on the "really good", Wizard tends to come out ahead on most levels (and has much more versatility).

However, Cleric has two things going for him here: Domains give him access to key Wizard spells and divine caster level is easier to pump than Arcane. Items like Beads of Karma, Ankh of Ascension and company make Holy Word-line and stuff like Spell Resistance particularly potent. It's worth noting that Miracle replicates almost every non-level 9 spell in the game with little effort and you can decide on casting what you need making it both, ridiculously potent and ridiculously versatile. This also means Clerics with 9th level spells have access to almost every spell in the D&D.


Then, the second part I already touched upon above, domains. Cleric Domains are quite potent; don't be mistaken. On each level, they provide you with a slot that generally can contain an arcane spell. Things like Pearl of Power allow recouping them just fine, so the "once-per-day" limit isn't that strict, even. This gives Clerics somewhat restricted access to Wizard spell list, or the gems anyways, along with other lists.

Also, Domain Granted Powers are roughly equal to feats, and Domains can be traded for Domain Feats from Complete Champion. So Cleric, while not gaining any more over the progression, starts with two (three for Cloistered Cleric) effective bonus feats, which is really nice.


Third, Turning itself isn't amazing but there are divine feats in Complete Divine that allow converting Turn Undead-uses to many awesome things. Divine Metamagic allows powering metamagic with Turn Undead-uses instead of spell slots making high-cost metamagic available ridiculously early, Divine Spell Power allows pumping caster level of your spells by up to additional 4, Divine Might allows hitting things hard, etc. Also, Travel Devotion allows swift action movement and can be powered with Turn Undead uses and other Devotions are quite good too and likewise benefit of this fuel.



Ultimately, the Cleric is Tier 1 because he's a one-man party with Wizard-like supreme spellcasting with all spells automatically known and access to splice the best pieces off other lists, some bonus feats to start off and access to Metamagic/Caster Level improvements right off the bat.


And a Cleric with just Divine Power can often fight just as well as a Fighter. Divine Favor and Righteous Might give the Cleric many notable advantages already. And then we get to all the additional buffs a Cleric can use. Not to mention, access to spells like Heal which can negate multiple turns worth of damage, and self-sufficiency in buffs like Magic Vestment (aka. "any armor/shield you wield is ~+5 with all the divine CL boosters for 20+ hours a day, and it's incredibly pestersome to dispel too since it takes specific targeting of the armor, and beating your massive CL"), Greater Magic Weapon (same, but for weapons), Heroes' Feast (immunity to random stuff; Extend for 24 hour coverage), Freedom of Movement (immunity to random stuff; extend thrice on high levels for 24 hour coverage), Air Walk ('cause not being able to fly sucks) and company.

Two good saves (the most important ones), dependency on stats that boost said saves (Con & Wis), d8 HD (with temporary HP) and company are all nice too.


This thread may help you for the "Why a class is on its tier"-questions.

As for immortality, combat immortality can be achieved through Astral Projection: it allows sending real duplicas of yourself out (among other things; can also duplicate your gear and such); just use Plane Shift & co. and your duplicas can do all your dirty work while your body is in your closed (with no Divination or Conjuration; even deities can't see there) demiplane created by Genesis. If you need a new body, just use Reincarnation or some such. Or Polymorph Any Object into an immortal creature like an Elan. Or Lichify. Or...there's really a dozen ways to stave off old age.

[Flickerdart]

Another plus in the Cleric's favour - they know all the spells. All of them. A new splatbook came out? Hey, guess whose character just learned a whole bunch of new spells. You decide to change your focus from buffing to debuffing? You can just ask your god for different spells the next morning. Even the Wizard has to go and buy the scroll, but the Cleric needn't even do that much.

[Jallorn]

The issue here, is that you are misunderstanding the tiers. Tier 1 is the most powerful, not because it can be the strongest, but because it is the most versatile. Two sorcerers of equal level and with the same skill and feat selection can still be good at totally different things, while two wizards can do all that and more, if given a little preparation time. Wizards, Clerics, and Druids all have the ability to gain access to all the spells on their list. That makes them capable of anything.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Find a way for a Cleric to make Personal spells have a range of Touch, and he can DMM Persist a Divine Reach (from Heirophant class), DMM Chain Divine Power and Righteous Might. Now the whole party are better beatsticks than beatsticks. In addition to whatever else they did.

How this works:

Divine Reach makes any Touch spell have a range of 30'. That's a fixed duration, which means it is a viable target for DMM Persist. Then you DMM Chain it to the whole party.

[Tinydwarfman]

Also, many people neglect the cleric's own unique spells, which can be ridiculously useful in the right situations, and get even better since a cleric will always know all of them. Hide From Undead and a few other death related spells recently made an undead temple trivial for our core pathfinder group.

It should be noted though that the Cleric greatly improves with new books, going from the bottom of tier 1 to near the top.

[FMArthur]

Basically, Clerics have tons and tons and tons of optimization tricks (probably more than any other class). Ordinary core Clerics are great, but they don't start taking over other characters' jobs until you really sit down and search for powerful abilities in splatbooks and combining some more innocuous abilities into monstrously overpowered combos. Because of this Clerics are generally not recognized for being IMBA in low-to-medium-optimization groups.

[Evard]

Also.. Mostly from a RP storyline perspective ... If you kill enough wizards, no one really cares except other wizards... If you kill enough clerics (and maybe paladins..) you pi$$ off a GOD... Yeah its nice having them in your corner ;P

[Soranar]

Tier 1 (I won't cover archivist,artificer or erudite: I just don't know them that well)

cleric vs druid vs wizard

druid (in my opinion the strongest of the tier one without optimization)

Pros:

-Low stat requirement

Constitution
Wisdom

maybe some Int for skillpoints

-good skill choices, many skillpoints
-your animal companion is nearly as strong , or stronger than a fighter
-your spells are limited (compared to wizard and cleric) but decent
-your wildshape makes you a decent fighter despite your stats or equipment
-2 important high saves (Fort and Will) and you should have decent stats to go with them too
-decent hitpoints (d8 with decent Con)
-very hard not to do one properly (unless you don't take the feat to cast in wildshape)

Cons (there are some) :

-benefit less from high stats and most templates
-most magic items won't work in wildshape (or cost more when they do)
-animal companions are not that simple to direct
-medium BAB and few spells to improve it by yourself
-you can still only take 1 action per turn (meaning that while your animal companion might do something worthwhile by itself, you can only cast or fight)
-being neutral is limiting in roleplay options
-very few prestige classes that go well with this (since you always lose a class feature in the process)

although that just means you're not quite a god

Wizard (power varies greatly depending on build and player but tier 1)

Pros:

-Low stat requirement

Intel
Con
Dex

-decent skill choices (low skillpoints mitigated by high Int) but arguably not as useful as a druid's (who has spot and listen + high Wisdom) although knowledge skills can be pretty handy
-vast spell choice although it can be limited by your campaign
-familiar gives action economy (arguably superior than a mere beatstick)
-spells also give action economy
-crowd control efficient enough that fighting becomes irrelevant
-benefits greatly from templates and magic items (a familiar capable of using a wand effectively becomes a second wizard)
-bonus feats
-many many great prestige classes (and you lose next to nothing taking them)


Cons

-low hp, more vulnerable to surprise and bad luck than other tier 1 classes (mostly at lower levels)
-abysmal BAB, if for some reason you do have to hit something, it's not going to be pretty
-low Fort saves and no bonus to Will saves through main stat
-lack of armor can be a problem at lower levels (especially if facing a mage-slayer feat character)
-can't access defensive spells as easily as a cleric or druid (healing, raise dead)

Cleric

Pros:

-decent hitpoints
-decent fighting capacity without wasting a feat to cast while being in your fighting form (unlike a druid)
-capacity to wear armor and shield and cast spells
-decent spell choice (somewhat lower than a wizard's but not by much)
-turn undead and shenanigans related to it
-can benefit greatly from magic items and templates

Cons:

-limited action economy (compared to a wizard)
-highish stat requirements (Con, Wis, some Strength, some Int, some Dex, some Cha)
-harder to build than a druid, simpler than a wizard
-harsher roleplay requirements than a druid's (you can lose all your powers, you have duties as a cleric of your deity, etc)

PrCs are a mixed blessing for a cleric (can be great or terrible)

in combat, a wizard should defeat a druid or a cleric simply because he is more suited to that kind of fight than they usually are

in campaigns a cleric will be more liked than a wizard simply because he is always useful even with the wrong spells (can always fight or heal or both) while a wizard is harder to play (although both pump other characters around them through effects)

druids are not a useful (they do crowd control and buff spells, but not as many or as versatile than the 2 others) in that department

druids also tend to steal the show more often (not as much of a team player as the others) since you are a team by yourself (bear, riding a bear summoning bears)

[tyckspoon]

How this works:

Divine Reach makes any Touch spell have a range of 30'. That's a fixed duration, which means it is a viable target for DMM Persist. Then you DMM Chain it to the whole party.

It also makes it a ray, not a targeted spell, which makes it an invalid subject for Chain Spell- rays do not 'specify a target' as required for Chaining.

[Psyx]

Plus there's those lovelly domain abilities, and you're a better counterspeller than a wizard, if you do it right.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It also makes it a ray, not a targeted spell, which makes it an invalid subject for Chain Spell- rays do not 'specify a target' as required for Chaining.

Wrong.

Divine Reach (Su)

A hierophant with this ability can use touch spells on targets up to 30 feet away. If the spell requires a melee touch attack, the hierophant must make a ranged touch attack instead. Divine reach can be selected a second time as a special ability, in which case the range increases to 60 feet.

It never says 'ray', it says it may use touch spells on targets up to 30'. Thus it does 'specify a target'.

[Tyndmyr]

While I do appreciate the Cleric and see that he's a very strong and potent character, I don't think he should be a tier 1 class, most likely med to high tier 2. I'm no expert on DnD however and I'd like the more experienced Playgrounders to explain why a cleric is considered to be (roughly) evenly matched with the druid and wizard.

Well, you've got a few factors to consider. First off, full caster, like the wizard. In my opinion, the wizard/sorc spell list is somewhat better...but divine casting is no slouch either. So, with that alone, we've got a pretty strong contender.

But wait, there's more. Spont heals are available, domains are available, and you know all spells on your list. That last one is huge, as wizards often have to deal with spell availability, and spell learning can take significant WBL up in the early levels. You don't need to worry about that.

And you get armor. This is less important later, but in the early levels, it makes you a lot tougher than the wizard, especially when combined with your d8 hit die. Bonus HP are always handy.

You have two good saves and 3/4ths base attack bonus. You have some of the best PrC options of any classes in the game.

Really, whats NOT to like about the cleric?

[El Dorado]

Clerics (like wizards and druids) don't hit their tier 1 goodness until higher levels. After that, they can be whichever tier they want.

[Greenish]

Clerics (like wizards and druids) don't hit their tier 1 goodness until higher levels.

Druids start with their goodness. Animal Companion decent at later levels, but starts out essentially as a second character. Spells like Shillelagh and Entangle provide good personal offense and large area control.

Clerics are only slightly slower starters, but with devotion feats easily push their to-hit and damage past full BAB classes and sport the heaviest of armour. Full BAB classes get second hit at level 6, cleric gets full BAB at level 7.

Wizards are perhaps the slowest to reach their power (without cheesing), but still start to shine in low-mid levels.

[Jallorn]

Druids start with their goodness. Animal Companion decent at later levels, but starts out essentially as a second character. Spells like Shillelagh and Entangle provide good personal offense and large area control.

Clerics are only slightly slower starters, but with devotion feats easily push their to-hit and damage past full BAB classes and sport the heaviest of armour. Full BAB classes get second hit at level 6, cleric gets full BAB at level 7.

Wizards are perhaps the slowest to reach their power (without cheesing), but still start to shine in low-mid levels.

Druids don't get their best stuff till 6th level. At 5th, they get wild shape, at 6th, they get natural spell.

[thubby]

a cleric can basically do anything a wizard can, while in enchanted full plate, with high saves, and decent hp.

[Tinydwarfman]

a cleric can basically do anything a wizard can, while in enchanted full plate, with high saves, and decent hp.

Well, that's not entirely true. A Wizard is still a better caster, since his spell-list is better, but they're close.