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    Default Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    My complaint about the current system actually started with spell casting. I don't like the per day spell supply of casters... games I'm in are typically fast paced, and on a schedule. it is far too easy for the casters to blow out of spells in the first hour of the day... but the world keeps moving, and it's far more fun to keep pushing than to run and hide while things blow up. Some argue this is the "charm" of a daily spell system, but I would rather have a smooth "at will" system with good boundaries, which is what I have attempted to do. Read up on it here:

    This ToB revision below fell into place very easily once I set up the mechanics of the spell system. By converting Adepts, they have taken a step closer to being the equals of what is the revised casters.

    This system replaces how Martial Adepts use their maneuvers. It converts all maneuvers to a point cost, and the adept has a pool of points to spend on these various maneuvers.
    Lets dive in.....

    Big difference: there is no difference between known and readied maneuvers. If you know a maneuver, it is readied.
    Second big difference: they can use the same maneuver repeatedly as long as they have the points to do it.

    Swordsage and Warblade start with a maximum pool of points that they draw off of until it is depleted, and then they recover those points as dictated by their class and level, instead of recovering the maneuvers themselves.
    Crusaders start with a maximum pool of points, but automatically accumulate points per round, maxing at a number determined by level.
    I"ll go into these differences in further depth below.

    Maneuvers cost points as shown in the chart below. Stances don't cost any points at all.
    Code:
    Maneuvers        
    Level   Cost 
       1        1 
       2        3 
       3        5 
       4        7 
       5        9 
       6       11 
       7       13 
       8       15 
       9       17
    As you can see, this mirrors the psionic progression.


    The concept is simple enough, but application is key.
    Look at each Adept progresion below, and I'll discuss each individually.


    CL = Class Level
    MP = amount of maneuver oints at each level in the pool
    ST = Stances known
    MK = number of maneuvers known.

    PR = how many poits are recovered each round normally:
    Warblade = swift action + standard attack/flourish mechanic
    Crusader = Automatically refreshes at beginning of round
    Swordsage = NO Point Recovery Mechanic. See below.


    [spoilerbutton=Warblade TOB]
    Code:
    CL MP MK ST PR 
    01 03   3  1 01 
    02 04   4  1 02 
    03 05   5  1 03 
    04 06   5  2 04 
    05 07   6  2 05 
    06 08   6  2 06 
    07 10   7  2 07 
    08 12   7  2 08 
    09 14   8  2 09 
    10 16   8  3 10 
    11 18   9  3 11 
    12 20   9  3 12 
    13 23   10  3 13 
    14 26   10  3 14 
    15 29   11  3 15 
    16 33   11  4 16 
    17 37   12  4 17 
    18 41   12  4 18 
    19 45   13  4 19 
    20 49   13  4 20
    [/spoilerbutton]
    Very simple. The warblade has a pool of points to spend on maneuvers. He keeps spending them until he runs out of points. Then he refreshes. Either by a swift action + a standard to attack or flourish, or using adaptive style.
    The amount of points in a warblade's pool is small. he can only perform his top level maneuver once before needing to refresh. at level 17+, he can use 9th level powers twice before needing to refresh.
    This is specifically to force warblade to consider his tactics... does he want to "waste" a round getting his top stuff back, or just use the plethora of lower level maneuvers to remain active each round..
    His rate of recovery is high enough that he can always use the highest level maneuver immediately afterwards.
    If he has adaptive style, he can spend a full round to recover his entire pool.


    [spoilerbutton=Crusader TOB]
    Code:
    CL MP MK ST PR 
    01 01 5  1 01 
    02 02 5  1 01 
    03 03 6  2 02 
    04 04 6  2 02 
    05 05 7  2 03 
    06 06 7  3 03 
    07 07 8  3 04 
    08 08 8  3 04 
    09 09 9  3 05 
    10 10 9  3 05
    11 11 10  3 06 
    12 12 10  3 06 
    13 13 11  3 07 
    14 14 11  3 07 
    15 15 12  4 08 
    16 16 12  4 08 
    17 17 13  4 09 
    18 18 13  4 09 
    19 19 14  4 10 
    20 20 14  4 10
    [/spoilerbutton]
    <revised 8/20/10... reduced MP and PR>
    Crusaders start combat with a full pool of points. Once they spend some of the points, they will begin automatically recovering a number of points at the beginning of their next round as indicated by their level. If these points are not used, they will continue to accumulate until the maximum number in their pool is reached.

    For example, a 20th level crusader has a pool of 20 points. If spent, he accumulates 10 points at the beginning of each round. after 2 rounds when a total of 20 points have added back to his pool; the next round, no points are gained, because the crusader has reached the maximum number of points allowed for his level.
    Notice that he can use his best ability once, and the rate of points inspired will ALWAYS allow some maneuver to be used next round.. the crusader NEVER has to stop using maneuvers.. even when dipping low to get a top maneuver next round... he doesn't have to stop spending points. This is why there is such a massive difference between how many points a crusader has compared to the warblade or swordsage.
    Furthermore, the amount of points he is inspired with each round is never enough to activate his highest level maneuvers.
    <revised>
    previously, the MP and PR were higher, but once the crusader got a full battery, he could spam top level maneuvers repeatedly. This reduction is another balance against spamming infinite awesome.... he has to either skip using maneuvers, or drop down to a 1-3 level maneuver (depending on level) to accumulate the best possible the following round.
    For example:
    level 20 crusader has 20 points, and automatically recovers 10 each round.
    1st round -- starts with 20 points.. 9th level maneuver = 17; 3 remain
    2nd round -- 10 recover; 13 points.. 3rd level maneuver = 5; 8 remain
    3rd round -- 10 recover; 18 points.. 9th level maneuver = 17; 1 remain
    4th round -- 10 recover; 11 points.. 2nd level maneuver = 3; 8 remain
    6th round -- 10 recover; 18 points.. 6th level maneuver = 11; 7 remain
    7th round -- 10 recover; 17 points.. 9th level maneuver = 17; 0 remain
    8th round -- 10 recover; 10 points.. 2nd level maneuver = 3; 7 remain
    9th round -- 10 recover; 17 points.. 9th level maneuver = 17; 0 remain

    Outside of combat, the crusader is free to use maneuvers at will as all adepts are.


    [spoilerbutton=Swordsage TOB]
    Code:
    CL MP MK ST PR 
    01 03 06 1 0 
    02 06 07  2 0 
    03 09 08  2 0 
    04 12 09  2 0 
    05 15 10  3 0 
    06 18 11  3 0 
    07 21 12  3 0 
    08 24 13  3 0 
    09 27 14  4 0 
    10 30 15  4 0 
    11 33 16  4 0 
    12 36 17  4 0 
    13 39 18  4 0 
    14 42 19  5 0 
    15 45 20  5 0 
    16 48 21  5 0 
    17 51 22  5 0 
    18 54 23  5 0 
    19 57 24  5 0 
    20 60 25  6 0
    [/spoilerbutton]
    Swordsage has NO standard recovery mechanic: he gains adaptive syle as a free feat to use, and recovers his full point pool with a full round action.

    Of course, the swordsage's big advantage is the sheer numbers of maneuvers known. And his pool is substantial... he can normally use his highest level maneuver three times before needing to refresh.. At higher levels, he can spam low maneuvers repeatedly before needing to refresh.
    The adaptive style mechanic, and no recovery rate otherwise makes the sage choose between those two options. when he needs to recover, it takes him out of the fight completely that next round, so he needs to really decide if he wants to use a high level maneuver.

    <revised 8/20>
    Here's some more fun to consider: recovery mechanics.
    1. the nice DM allows recovery to happen because it just does... you declare it, you get it.
    2. recovery requires a concentration check = to DC 10+ however many points you are recovering... a 20th level caster CAN recover 82 points on a full round recovery... but will need to hit a concentration check of 92.
    He can choose to recover less... if he can only expect to get a 30 on his check, then he will choose to recover only 20 points... even if his standard action recovery COULD allow up to 40... if he can't get a 50 on a check, he's out of luck.
    3. standard action recovery requires a concentration check... the amount of points you get are equal to your result - 10 (minimum 1, maximum = standard recovery limit by level). If you roll a 37, you recover 27. If you take a full round recovery, you get back double your result.. if you roll a 37, you get back 74 points (up to the maximum available for your pool... if you are buffed, and only have 61 available, the extra 13 are wasted)
    4. Recovery is automatic as per #1... but if you get damaged, you have to make a concentration check DC = 10+damage taken... failure means your attempt to recover is totally wasted. try again next round.
    5. combine #2 or #3 with #4.. you determine how many points you'll get back... but if you take damage, you have to make additional concentration checks to not waste the round.

    all but #1 makes the pool more like HP than a dependable battery... you are taking chances that you will be safe, or will roll well, or possibly both.
    I have only playtested #1... if you want to knock your adepts down a few pegs, then go with #2-#5. You can also mix and match... You could decide warblade uses #4 unless utilizing adaptive style.. this (and thus swordsages by default) use #1 without risk of disruption... crusaders do not get the option to use adaptive style, perhaps instead they must also abide by #4: tallying up how much damage they took this round to determine the DC before automatically recovering.
    It would be up to the group to decide on how hellacious you want to make it.



    Again, my big goal here is to put Adepts on more even ground with casters.. raising their level of power while keeping the challenge and "fun" of choosing your moves wisely, working with your team.

    Clarifications?
    Feedback most appreciated.
    Last edited by fil kearney; 2010-08-20 at 05:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    Haven't looked over everything yet, but the Crusader is exceptionally weak in this system, as it can't use decent maneuvers for at least 1 full round, and often more. The existing system gives you a choice of a few right off the bat, and then makes it random...it's a unique enough system that this new system just nerfs the Crusader hard. I'd think up a new method for the Crusader, as the existing one doesn't really fit this system.

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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_In_Tonic View Post
    Haven't looked over everything yet, but the Crusader is exceptionally weak in this system, as it can't use decent maneuvers for at least 1 full round, and often more. The existing system gives you a choice of a few right off the bat, and then makes it random...it's a unique enough system that this new system just nerfs the Crusader hard. I'd think up a new method for the Crusader, as the existing one doesn't really fit this system.
    <edit: revised>
    I disagree... This system is actually considerably MORE powerful, because you can choose whichever maneuver you use any round without being subject to random chance at all (as long as you've accumulated enough points to pay for it). The crusader's battery is intentionally low to prevent any stockpiling of points... the crusader "may as well" blow the points this round or the next because he won't get any more... if a manuever makes sense to use right now then no sense "holding off" til later. This, to me, is much more in tune with "being inspired" because there is no mechanic to dissuade a spontaneous idea.

    Your point about not getting access to their top powers initially is a valid point tho, and is inconsistent with the other two classes.
    <revised>
    Crusader starts combat with a full battery like everyone else. the first round after he spends points he begins to automatically recover, and has the same "automatic use" of maneuvers outside of combat like everyone else... thanks for the perspective! This is much more fluid.
    Last edited by fil kearney; 2010-08-20 at 10:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    Keep in mind as well that the Crusader gets some seriously nice maneuvers; the random selection is intended, I think, to be a trade-off in exchange for that power.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    Shouldn't the stance progression of the Crusader be adjusted to ensure it can actually get it's 8th level stance (at 15th level) without spending a feat?
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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Shouldn't the stance progression of the Crusader be adjusted to ensure it can actually get it's 8th level stance (at 15th level) without spending a feat?
    That's a good point, Ham.. and easily fixed. <done>

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Keep in mind as well that the Crusader gets some seriously nice maneuvers; the random selection is intended, I think, to be a trade-off in exchange for that power.
    I've revised the introduction to address this point.
    --> My complaint about the current system actually started with spell casting. I don't like the per day spell supply of casters... games I'm in are typically fast paced, and on a schedule. it is far too easy for the casters to blow out of spells in the first hour of the day... but the world keeps moving, and it's far more fun to keep pushing than to run and hide while things blow up. Some argue this is the "charm" of a daily spell system, but I would rather have a smooth "at will" system with good boundaries, which is what I have attempted to do.

    This ToB system fell into place very easily once I set up the mechanics of the spell system. By converting Adepts, they have taken a step closer to being the equals of what is the revised casters.
    Last edited by fil kearney; 2010-08-20 at 11:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    Possibly also adjust the chart so it's possible to take 3rd and 6th level stances when they become available too.

    The whole stance progression for the Crusader was a bit off in ToB.

    Also- does the warblade regenerate power points automatically, as well as being able to regenerate more of them by spending a refresh, or only by spending refresh attempts?
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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Possibly also adjust the chart so it's possible to take 3rd and 6th level stances when they become available too.

    The whole stance progression for the Crusader was a bit off in ToB.

    Also- does the warblade regenerate power points automatically, as well as being able to regenerate more of them by spending a refresh, or only by spending refresh attempts?
    Thanks, Ham. <revised>
    as for recovery.. crusader here is the only one allowed to automatically recover points.. notice his pool is significantly smaller than the other two adepts.
    furthermore, swordsages HAVE to use adaptive style to recover points.

    a group could decide to pick and choose which recovery method they want for each class... the above was designed to attempt to maintain the dynamic differences between each class in this new format. Warblade is most like the caster system referenced, and I personally prefer it the most... I would be open to converting all 3 of them to this system; differences simply being class features and access to disciplines... but could just as easily be the swordsage or crusader mechanics... plus the modified recovery options of possible concentration checks... there is certainly flexibility for each group to enjoy.

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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    So far, I like. Are there any good homebrew TOB style versions of the rogue, scout, swashbuckler, etc, that you like the idea of using with this system as well?
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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    So far, I like. Are there any good homebrew TOB style versions of the rogue, scout, swashbuckler, etc, that you like the idea of using with this system as well?
    I'm not personally familiar with any of them... if you have links, I'd be happy to brew up a progression. Also; are you aware of a completed ranged weapon school for ToB? over on WoTC boards a few years back was an incomplete "falling star' school that made for neat opportunities for a possible ranger adept concept... I fell into RL for a while, but I'm back now. still slightly out of sorts.

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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    I've had a quick look in one of the main TOB compilations, and the Hunter seems a bit scout-ish (though more ranger than scout) and the Sneak a bit rogue-ish.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ghlight=Archer

    The Scout was in Complete Adventurer, and was a bit like a more "wild" version of the rogue- though not as wilderness-centric as the ranger- no spells and no animal companion.

    The Swashbuckler was in Complete Warrior and was a bit like a lightly armoured version of the fighter, very "swashbuckling movie" in style- charismatic, good at getting across difficult terrain.

    The Iron Rain school:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...97#post8103297

    is a possible good archery one.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-08-20 at 03:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I've had a quick look in one of the main TOB compilations, and the Hunter seems a bit scout-ish (though more ranger than scout) and the Sneak a bit rogue-ish.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ghlight=Archer

    The Scout was in Complete Adventurer, and was a bit like a more "wild" version of the rogue- though not as wilderness-centric as the ranger- no spells and no animal companion.

    The Swashbuckler was in Complete Warrior and was a bit like a lightly armoured version of the fighter, very "swashbuckling movie" in style- charismatic, good at getting across difficult terrain.
    ah! now I understand your question. I'm familiar with all the books.. I thought you meant if I was aware of existing adept-adapted variations a la homebrew.. which is not my forte at all... I typically take what already exists and see if it will work... like, for the swashbuckler, scout, and rogue; I'd be more quick to simply allow them to gestalt with an adept than actually modify them.. this creeps them closer to equal footing with casters.

    I'm still unsure of the true balance of the spell system to the other classes unchanged, or to this revised maneuver system... I need to test it more... but in normal gaming... a swordsage or warblade/fighter/rogue or scout or swashbuckler as a triple gestalt would still fall shy of the power in a CODzilla... but I'd happily play one alongside a team of druids, clerics and wizards. a swordsage/bard using these new systems... may... be on par with the new system Cleric... it would have high enough level utility stuff to be useful at 20 from bard, and have the kick of a 20th level adept... but it's still a gestalt answer to the question.

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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    I don't know about gestalt exactly- but I'd probably find a couple of schools that suit the relevant class, and add martial progression (but no other class features) to the class.

    A scout with Iron Rain, for example.

    Or alternatively, remove spellcasting from the ranger and give it martial progression instead.

    Though the Hunter looks a bit like that, only with a dose of barbarian thrown in.
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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I don't know about gestalt exactly- but I'd probably find a couple of schools that suit the relevant class, and add martial progression (but no other class features) to the class.

    A scout with Iron Rain, for example.

    Or alternatively, remove spellcasting from the ranger and give it martial progression instead.

    Though the Hunter looks a bit like that, only with a dose of barbarian thrown in.
    sure. :) the progression for warblade or crusader or swordsage could easily be picked up and dropped onto another class to "up it's ante".

    Ranger has a very limited spell progression as is... most of which are buff/sustained type boosts using the point system; I don't think it would be out of balance to grant the crusader recovery mechanic and then the two paths:
    Giving the bow path access to iron rain plus maybe iron heart?
    Giving the sword path shadow hand desert wind?
    it's really a matter of limiting HOW MANY disciplines they can choose from; not the accumulated points. The points and recovery per level control how often/what level of abilities they can use, and shouldn't be tampered with too heavily (unless attempting a bard or ranger progression).. instead reducing how many maneuvers and stances can be known.. like, 3 less maneuvers per level... the ranger would then have only 2 maneuvers to use at level 1, and would have only 1 maneuver for each level 2 - 9 between 2 schools.. it will never master either... who cares if every other round it can crack off it's best ability.. there's plenty of variety there that this ranger won't.This restricted selection coupled with the 4 level gradual progression... this would be a fun build that isn't overpowering.

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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    Yup- I like the notion of ToB-ifying the other 3.5 classes.

    It would be like 4E- only a bit less restrictive.
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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Yup- I like the notion of ToB-ifying the other 3.5 classes.

    It would be like 4E- only a bit less restrictive.
    This can fairly easily be accomplished by limiting what schools are available... for instance, a rogue could use the warblade progression table; and may be given access to shadowhand + 2 more schools of choice... but may only recover using adaptive style... good variety to choose from, but limited on how many can actually be known, coupled with a moderate pool and slow recovery.

    scout could be the same.. iron rain, shadowhand, and white raven for instance would be fantastic for a scout.

    <revised>
    reduced MP and PR for crusader to limit top level maneuver to every other round, since it was modified that they START with a full pool, instead of building it up... this is strictly for game balance vs the other 2 adept recovery systems.

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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    The scout is very movement-centric with its skirmish mechanic- might work with Tiger Claw instead of Shadow Hand.

    Could depend on the culture- with drow scouts being Shadow Hand, but surface scouts more often being Tiger Claw.
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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    In addition to Iron Rain there are two other ranged disciplines that are designed to be used with it:
    Falcons Eye, and Nightingale Feather.

    Those three are re-mixes of two other ranged disciplines.

    These and more can be seen in the "Ranged" section of the following post: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=348
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    Default Re: Alternate ToB Maneuver system: Maneuver Points

    Playtesting discussion started here:
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...03#post9190003

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