Mystic Ranger - what tier?

[true_shinken]

So, in what tier do you believe Mystic Ranger belongs?
I think it is a solid tier 3. Even if you add Sword of Arcane Order and Wildshape (which alone makes the ranger a tier 3) you are still very limited if compared to, say, a Sorcerer.
But in low levels, I believe Mystic Rangers are simply AMAZING. If you have Sword of Arcane Order, then it looks simply unfair. It's almost like the Lightning Warrior - full bab and wizard casting (and no familiar)!

So, thoughts on this?

[Greenish]

Hmm, excellent chassis, prepared spells up to 5th level from decent list (with a feat and some MAD from the best list)…

Yeah, I'd say that at least with SotAO it's easy tier 3, though after level 10 or so it starts losing steam.

[FMArthur]

I'd say vanilla Mystic Ranger would have been an easy tier 3 or 4. SotAO really does feel like cheating with the Mystic Ranger though: I'd say it easily bumps them up to tier 2.

[FlamingKobold]

You're still sacrificing power for flavor. You yourself even point out that there's no familiar, which is the only reason wizards and sorcerers are powerful. Tier 6.

But in all actuality, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Mystic and wildshape rangers are, on their own, quite good. No 9th level spells means not T1 or T2, but I think that it's adaptable and powerful enough to warrant T3.

[Greenish]

I'd say vanilla Mystic Ranger would have been an easy tier 3 or 4. SotAO really does feel like cheating with the Mystic Ranger though: I'd say it easily bumps them up to tier 2.

Well, not beyond the mid levels when you stop getting new spell levels. 5th level spells even from sorc/wiz list aren't going to cut it for tier 2.

[true_shinken]

Well, not beyond the mid levels when you stop getting new spell levels. 5th level spells even from sorc/wiz list aren't going to cut it for tier 2.

Totally agree. But Sword of the Arcane Order + Wildshape means, easily, very high tier 3.
If you consider the Swiftblade possibility, I think Sword'Shape Mystic Ranger (that is, a mystic ranger with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order and wildshape) may well be the most powerful class at tier 3.

[JaronK]

IIRC it gets full Wizard style progression, then stops off around 10. That's why I didn't rank it in the Tiers... it changes too much over time. Up till level 10 with Sword of the Arcane Order it's T1 or T2, but after that it rapidly drops off until near the end it's clearly T3.

JaronK

[true_shinken]

IIRC it gets full Wizard style progression, then stops off around 10. That's why I didn't rank it in the Tiers... it changes too much over time. Up till level 10 with Sword of the Arcane Order it's T1 or T2, but after that it rapidly drops off until near the end it's clearly T3.

JaronK

While we are at it... your thoughts on Oriental Adventure's Sohei, if you will? Tier 4 or 5?

[Greenish]

Totally agree. But Sword of the Arcane Order + Wildshape means, easily, very high tier 3.
If you consider the Swiftblade possibility, I think Sword'Shape Mystic Ranger (that is, a mystic ranger with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order and wildshape) may well be the most powerful class at tier 3.

Quite. Sword'Shape MR (the build with all three ACFs should have some shorter, catchy name) is basically a druid lite, and swiftblade is an excellent PrC when you needn't worry about losing spell levels. So, strong tier 3 sounds about right.

[JaronK]

While we are at it... your thoughts on Oriental Adventure's Sohei, if you will? Tier 4 or 5?

Never played with it. Rough guess is T5. She's obviously supposed to be close to the Paladin. Her spell list is quite limited with only a few decent choices (Freedom of Movement, and Shield Other has some potential). Iajuitsu Focus as a class skill certainly has potential, but there's nothing in the class that makes it easy to flat foot enemies, so I'm not sure how much you could do with that. And the rage ability is sub par.

But I haven't played it, so I can't be sure.

JaronK

[arguskos]

Never played with it. Rough guess is T5. She's obviously supposed to be close to the Paladin. Her spell list is quite limited with only a few decent choices (Freedom of Movement, and Shield Other has some potential). Iajuitsu Focus as a class skill certainly has potential, but there's nothing in the class that makes it easy to flat foot enemies, so I'm not sure how much you could do with that. And the rage ability is sub par.

But I haven't played it, so I can't be sure.

JaronK

It's a nice 1-level dip, for the ability to cast some good stuff from scrolls/wands sans UMD (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Shield Other, a few other things) and get a Whirling Frenzy-lite (the "flurry" the Sohei gets during frenzy gives an extra attack, it is NOT the Monk Flurry of Blows).

Beyond like level 1, it's trash though. Tier 5 sounds about right.

EDIT: On topic, Mystic Ranger is more than competent, even without SotAO. The Ranger list is actually pretty decent (Spell Compendium helps a great deal here), and with the alternate combat styles from Dragon #326 you can make a large range of very effective guys. I'd say solid T3 sans SotAO, and high 3, low 2 (at levels 1-10) with. Just my experiences though.

[true_shinken]

EDIT: On topic, Mystic Ranger is more than competent, even without SotAO. The Ranger list is actually pretty decent (Spell Compendium helps a great deal here), and with the alternate combat styles from Dragon #326 you can make a large range of very effective guys. I'd say solid T3 sans SotAO, and high 3, low 2 (at levels 1-10) with. Just my experiences though.

Actually, at low levels I'd say high tier 1. This guy can do anything a Wizard can do... and he can also heal, stab people, wildshape and has skill points.

Sword'Shape MR (loved the name, Greenish) is beyond-Druid broken in the lower levels.

EDIT: I was thinking, do you guys believe Mystic Ranger needs a handbook? It basically picks stuff up from other classes, so it does not seem like it does, but dunno...

[PId6]

If you consider the Swiftblade possibility, I think Sword'Shape Mystic Ranger (that is, a mystic ranger with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order and wildshape) may well be the most powerful class at tier 3.

Eh, how does mystic ranger work with swiftblade? You can qualify, sure, but swiftblade only advances arcane casting, not divine, so I'm not sure how that's actually good.

[Greenish]

Sword'Shape MR (loved the name, Greenish)

My point was that it's too much of a mouthful. (Besides, it's your name. )

[true_shinken]

My point was that it's too much of a mouthful. (Besides, it's your name. )

Oh, well, you did make it seem more stylish.

[strider24seven]

Having played a grand total of 3 Mystic Rangers, one from level 1 to 20, one from level 3 to 8, and one from level 10 to 21, (all three with SotAO) I can safely submit the following opinion about Mystic Rangers with SotAO:

If the game is under level 10 and Spell Compendium is allowed:
Low Tier 2 or High Tier 3. Full BAB and Wizard progression is brutally awesome at lower levels. You are better than a wizard, especially at a higher point buy. Even at a lower point buy, you are better than the rogues/fighters/regular rangers. SC Ranger spells are awesomesauce.

If the game is under level 10 and SC is not allowed:
Mid to High Tier 3. You are still better than fighters and such, but you simply don't have the punch with your lesser spell list. SotAO helps significantly, but it still doesn't bump you to Tier 2 because of your MAD.

If the game is over level 10:
Low to Mid Tier 3. You lose most of your steam when you stop progressing like a wizard. You are a competent melee/ranged combatant, but you can no longer compete in the fullcaster arena, so to speak. Even with Spell Compendium and SotAO, you simply do not have the punch of higher level spells.

My 2 cp.

[Coidzor]

So, other than stretching out the MAD and prereqs to qualify for Sublime Chord (something I think I've heard of people doing in combination with Abjurant Champion), are there any PrCs or methods to break past 5th level spells?

[TooManyBadgers]

So, other than stretching out the MAD and prereqs to qualify for Sublime Chord (something I think I've heard of people doing in combination with Abjurant Champion), are there any PrCs or methods to break past 5th level spells?

Do Ur-Priest, Divine Champion (CDivine), Chameleon (RoD) or Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East) count?

[Coidzor]

Do Ur-Priest, Divine Champion (CDivine), Chameleon (RoD) or Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East) count?

Probably, though Ur-Priest is a bit of a sticky thing, since it makes the spell-casting component of Mystic Ranger obsolete by axing it and by extension axing any Sword of the Arcane Order stuff, IIRC. So one would be better served by being I dunno, a non-spellcasting wildshape ranger(if that's possible) as the melee base for such a gish.

I'm-a have to bone up on Divine Champion and Nar Demonbinder though...

[MachineWraith]

You yourself even point out that there's no familiar, which is the only reason wizards and sorcerers are powerful.

I don't have any experience with the Mystic Ranger, so sorry for this little hijack, but reading that just really made me go, "lolwut?"

[PId6]

I don't have any experience with the Mystic Ranger, so sorry for this little hijack, but reading that just really made me go, "lolwut?"

Oh, it's true. You can give a wizard full BAB, sorcerer spell slots, and d20 hit die, but you'd still be sacrificing power for flavor if you take away the familiar.

[DragoonWraith]

Probably, though Ur-Priest is a bit of a sticky thing, since it makes the spell-casting component of Mystic Ranger obsolete by axing it and by extension axing any Sword of the Arcane Order stuff, IIRC. So one would be better served by being I dunno, a non-spellcasting wildshape ranger(if that's possible) as the melee base for such a gish.

I'm-a have to bone up on Divine Champion and Nar Demonbinder though...

Divine Champion and Nar Demonbinder (and Sublime Chord, for that matter) do the same as Ur-Priest, starting their own progression. The Nar Demonbinder starts at 4th level spells, though, IIRC.

I don't have any experience with the Mystic Ranger, so sorry for this little hijack, but reading that just really made me go, "lolwut?"

It's a really old joke, that might have been funny once (I'm skeptical), but is now just over-used, IMO. Someone posted a ridiculously over-powered homebrew class ("Lightning Warrior" - d20 HD, full BAB, 3 good saves, tons of iterative attacks above and beyond the usual for his BAB, and better-than-wizard spellcasting), and then claimed that it "truly sacrificed power for flavor" - flavor which just about non-existent and the "sacrificed power" consisted largely of the fact that it didn't get a Familiar.

[PId6]

Divine Champion and Nar Demonbinder (and Sublime Chord, for that matter) do the same as Ur-Priest, starting their own progression. The Nar Demonbinder starts at 4th level spells, though, IIRC.

And only goes up to 8th. It's a very strange class.

It's a really old joke, that might have been funny once (I'm skeptical), but is now just over-used, IMO.

It was funny when I read it, especially once you look at the responses (how anyone can think it was serious is beyond me). Unfortunately, that thread is lost to the wastes of the internet now.

then claimed that it "truly sacrificed power for flavor" - flavor which just about non-existent and the "sacrificed power" consisted largely of the fact that it didn't get a Familiar.

Well, it also didn't get the ability to specialize in a school. That's a sacrifice, right?

[TooManyBadgers]

It was funny when I read it, especially once you look at the responses (how anyone can think it was serious is beyond me). Unfortunately, that thread is lost to the wastes of the internet now.

STUPED.

[Kris Strife]

What tier does the Dragonfire Adept rank as? I've wondered that a few times and never been able to find it.

[DragoonWraith]

Third. DfA's are often considered better than Warlocks, but they're definitely not Tier 2.

Though, as I write this, I'm having doubts; I've heard it said that a lot of the Warlock's Tier-3 status stems from Deceive Item and Imbue Item, and the fact that they can, e.g., scribe any scroll in the game. The DfA has the better chassis overall, but they don't have those features, which does cut down on versatility. I am therefore... unsure of my answer.

[Kris Strife]

DFAs get free identify item and geas as a standard action, an illusion spell that damages anyone who makes the save, the ability to change shape into any humanoid, plus five-fold breath of Tiamat.

[arguskos]

DFAs get free identify item and geas as a standard action, an illusion spell that damages anyone who makes the save, the ability to change shape into any humanoid, plus five-fold breath of Tiamat.

Compare a DFA 20, a Warlock 20, a Beguiler 20, and a Factotum 20, and tell me who's got the most tricks here. Beguiler and Factotum pull faaaaaar ahead of the other two in options, which is the defining characteristic of the Tier System laid out by JaronK. That said, I'm gonna roll with Tier 4 for DFA, same as the Warlock, because though they've a better chassis, they don't have significantly more options than the Warlock.

[Coidzor]

Hmm. I just opened up a copy of Complete Divine and the only class I found was Divine Crusader, not Divine Champion. Page 33... Only 9 spells known, though depending upon the domain (and if a Sword MR, Mystra's not too bad, especially if the Customize Domain feat works, which it....might...) they could have some good ones, still... Of course, is a Charisma based caster, so would have the same MAD as a Sublime Chord.

Guess that leaves Nar Demonbinder to look at.

Hmm, aside from Ur-Priest which seems the most promising, it's essentially they're all CHA casters, funny that.

[Greenish]

Hmm. I just opened up a copy of Complete Divine and the only class I found was Divine Crusader, not Divine Champion. Page 33... Only 9 spells known, though depending upon the domain (and if a Sword MR, Mystra's not too bad, especially if the Customize Domain feat works, which it....might...) they could have some good ones, still...

Grab a level of the Divine Crusader and then advance it's caster progression with Sovereign Speaker? It'll mix settings and suffer MAD, but meh.