How to deal with a poor Roll-Player

[Wonton]

Hey, fellow playgrounders. Have you ever been in a gaming group where 4/5 are decent optimizers, who can build powerful characters that are useful in many situations... while that fifth person takes feats for flavour and enjoys things like Barbarian/Wizard multiclass?

I'm wondering what you've done about it - sure, they can have fun however they want, but if they're not contributing to the party by filling a role, everyone's having a less enjoyable time.

P.S. I'm not the DM... I'm the party Wizard.

[Greenish]

Tell him that the others would prefer his characters to be able to pull their weight (and offer to help him with it). Try to navigate him towards classes hard to mess up.

[Private-Prinny]

1. Have them be a Druid
2. Have them take Natural Spell at level 6.
3. ???
4. Profit!

(Druids are really, really hard to screw up)

On a more serious note, you or the optimizers in your group could find out what the non-optimizer wants his character to be able to do, and simply make a few suggestions to nudge him in the right direction. Remind him that classes are metagame concepts if, for example, he finds out that his idea for a Paladin would be better done by a Crusader.

[Skorj]

I'm wondering what you've done about it - sure, they can have fun however they want, but if they're not contributing to the party by filling a role, everyone's having a less enjoyable time.

This just doesn't seem like an issue to me. Balance the encounters around N-1 characters, and done. It's one thing if the problem player is the only one filling a crucial role, and is so mechanically bad at it that the whole party is crippled as a result, but that's not what you described.

If the weak player enjoys playing the game, it shouldn't matter that he's producing smaller numbers, as long as the rest of the team is getting it done.

EDIT:

1. Have them be a Druid
2. Have them take Natural Spell at level 6.
3. ???
4. Profit!

(Druids are really, really hard to screw up)

That's simply not true: you can easily screw up wildshape and your animal companion by simply choosing weak options. And if for some strange reason being a bear who rides bears while summoning bears doesn't appeal to you, the weak options are IMO the more colorful and "interesting" ones to a non-roll-player.

[Greenish]

On wizard/barbarian multiclass, that can be made well. You'll want just one barbarian level, probably as the first, then martial feats wizard (with maybe some ruathar for BAB/skills) until you can nab two levels of rage mage, full abjurant champion and the rest in, say, knight phantom, eldritch knight or similar.

[Edit]: ^ To above, having the other characters to drag around a noticeable weaker member to share the loot requires some explaining. Not to mention that some, like me, find people who can't (or won't, since asking for help could easily make their characters competent) pull their weight annoying.

[thubby]

is anyone complaining?

[WarKitty]

In some cases asking the player what he wants and then suggesting feats and attack styles that accomplish that can work.

[Thurbane]

(Druids are really, really hard to screw up).

I've seen it done - in a campaign we wrapped up a while back (EttRoG), the group was a Druid, Beguiler, Fighter, Monk and Dragon Shaman (me) - plyed from level 8 through about 12/13.

In combat, the one usually dragging the chain was the Halfling Druid...while the Dwarven Fighter and Deep Dwarf Monk really shone. The fighter was dealing huge amounts of damage with Power Attack, and the monk seemed to be able to pull off timely stun attacks all the time. The Beguiler often owned encounters with area effects (Confusion in particular), while my Dragon Shaman was a little lackluster, but did manage to contribute with auras, breath weapon (and breath feats) and healing...

...true, this was a fairly low-optimization game, and the Druid player had basically never played a divine caster in 3.X before.

[Greenish]

A straight druid is pretty much impossible to screw up permanently, since the animal companion, spells and wild shape can all be changed without even retraining.

It can be played poorly, though, with some creativity. (Hey cool, I got a pet hawk and can turn into a housecat! Oh, and let's load up with healing spells and never use spontaneous summons!)

[Zeful]

is anyone complaining?

I have to second this, if no one at the table has voiced a complaint with this, then there is no problem.

Also this sentiment:

Tell him that the others would prefer his characters to be able to pull their weight (and offer to help him with it). Try to navigate him towards classes hard to mess up.

Tends to be very insensitive (as well as flat out stupid) as it makes the entire issue the non-optimizer's fault, which it's not. Odds are actually saying this will get one of three responses:
1.)The player turns defensive and starts insulting people back.
2.)The player socks the speaker in the mouth.
3.)Both of the above.
And quite frankly I'd side with the player over the DM if they ever said anything like this.

[Wonton]

On wizard/barbarian multiclass...

Yeah, I was referring to a straight multiclass without PrCs... now, I don't think this player would actually do that... then again, I seem to remember him telling me about his about something along the lines of a Druid 14/Fighter 6.

P.S. I think he settled on Psion/Flayerspawn Psychic eventually... I know nothing about psionics, so I don't know whether that character will be any good or not.

[Gnaeus]

Most of the tier 3's are friendly to very low optimization. Beguiler and Dread Necro are probably the easiest casters in the game. Tome of Battle is hard to make non-playable.

[Greenish]

I have to second this, if no one at the table has voiced a complaint with this, then there is no problem.

Well, obviously at least one player (or DM) thought it to be a problem (worth asking for help on the forum).

Tends to be very insensitive (as well as flat out stupid) as it makes the entire issue the non-optimizer's fault, which it's not.

If he doesn't have time or expertise to build a decent character, he should ask for help. It's not his fault if he prefers a playstyle that doesn't fit the group, but still he should be ready to adapt.

Odds are actually saying this will get one of three responses:
1.)The player turns defensive and starts insulting people back.
2.)The player socks the speaker in the mouth.
3.)Both of the above.
And quite frankly I'd side with the player over the DM if they ever said anything like this.

What, you think that becoming a jerk or using violence are appropriate responses to someone suggesting you to change your playstyle to fit the game better?

[true_shinken]

If the guy is having fun with his underpowered character, let him be. Not an issue.

[derfenrirwolv]

Within limits its not an issue. Let them decide what they want to play and you try to give them advice on how to do it well

[Zeful]

If he doesn't have time or expertise to build a decent character, he should ask for help. It's not his fault if he prefers a playstyle that doesn't fit the group, but still he should be ready to adapt.

What a "decent character" is is nothing but opinion. Though, most people who don't incessantly optimize everything don't necessarily see that there are better options. It was the DM's job to notice this at character creation, and provide better options then, that he didn't and okayed the character anyway makes this entire situation his fault.

What, you think that becoming a jerk or using violence are appropriate responses to someone suggesting you to change your playstyle to fit the game better?

No, but I find it an appropriate response to unfounded antagonism. Starting up a conversation with the equivalent of "you suck and nobody likes you" is stupid, unnecessary and antagonistic. Continuing by patronizing them with "advice" is pretty much asking to be hit. That it's about a game doesn't change the fact that you are insulting the player needlessly. There are much better ways to point out that the character build is subpar without using language that may piss someone off and start a fight.

[PId6]

P.S. I think he settled on Psion/Flayerspawn Psychic eventually... I know nothing about psionics, so I don't know whether that character will be any good or not.

Flayerspawn Psychic is a 6/10 manifesting PrC, so... no, it will likely not.

[Greenish]

If the guy is having fun with his underpowered character, let him be. Not an issue.

No issue… except:

everyone's having a less enjoyable time.

Now, when there's a beer and pretzels game with amazing straight fighters TWF monkeygripping large bastard swords and sword'n'board monks, you don't show up with a fully tricked out DMM persist clericzilla. The same applies the other way: when people are playing their mystic ranger swiftblades, DMM persist clerics and tashatalora ardents, you don't bring a half-arsed samurai/ninja/healer build.

It's impolite and shows you're not wanting to play the same game as the others.

[Edit]:

No, but I find it an appropriate response to unfounded antagonism. Starting up a conversation with the equivalent of "you suck and nobody likes you" is stupid, unnecessary and antagonistic. Continuing by patronizing them with "advice" is pretty much asking to be hit. That it's about a game doesn't change the fact that you are insulting the player needlessly. There are much better ways to point out that the character build is subpar without using language that may piss someone off and start a fight.

Uhm, I just suggested telling them that their character is subpar, just like you. I don't know where you're getting the whole "you suck and nobody likes you" from.

[PId6]

mystic ranger swiftblades

Still not quite sure how that works. Swiftblade advances arcane spellcasting; how does that help mystic ranger?

[Aroka]

That's simply not true: you can easily screw up wildshape and your animal companion by simply choosing weak options. And if for some strange reason being a bear who rides bears while summoning bears doesn't appeal to you, the weak options are IMO the more colorful and "interesting" ones to a non-roll-player.

The only problem with that druid build is not enough bears.

[Greenish]

Still not quite sure how that works. Swiftblade advances arcane spellcasting; how does that help mystic ranger?

In magical mystical way! (My bad, I was just trying to come up with something in hurry, and there was talk about it in the other thread.)

[Tyndmyr]

And if for some strange reason being a bear who rides bears while summoning bears doesn't appeal to you, you are a dirty communist.

Fixed that for you.

On a more serious note, does he seem to care that the rest of the party is essentially gods compared to him? If so, offer to teach him the way of optimization-fu. If not...meh. I find that balance is less important at the table than described on the internets.

[arrowhen]

Give him some mooks to deal with or a vital non-combat task to perform while the big boys show off their builds and everyone should be happy.

[Zeful]

[Edit]:Uhm, I just suggested telling them that their character is subpar, just like you. I don't know where you're getting the whole "you suck and nobody likes you" from.

This:

Tell him that the others would prefer his characters to be able to pull their weight (and offer to help him with it). Try to navigate him towards classes hard to mess up.

I bolded it for you. It implies three things, first that "the others" do not like his choice of characters, the second that he doesn't understand that he's not contributing and third, the last two points are a personal failure. Further as DM you should never bring up the other players when confronting a player about something as it isolates the person you're talking to from the group, especially in this situation. If any DM said that to a fellow player, I'd leave the group because it would only be a matter of time before I was the guy who didn't meet the unspoken "minimum entry requirements".

[true_shinken]

Still not quite sure how that works. Swiftblade advances arcane spellcasting; how does that help mystic ranger?

Sword of Arcane Order. Now, is it arcane or divine? That's whole 'nother can of worms...

[WarKitty]

This:
I bolded it for you. It implies three things, first that "the others" do not like his choice of characters, the second that he doesn't understand that he's not contributing and third, the last two points are a personal failure. Further as DM you should never bring up the other players when confronting a player about something as it isolates the person you're talking to from the group, especially in this situation. If any DM said that to a fellow player, I'd leave the group because it would only be a matter of time before I was the guy who didn't meet the unspoken "minimum entry requirements".

What would you say then? Obviously it is frustrating the other players. I've been in games before where the optimized contingent ended up spending valuable resources protecting a poorly built character. It's not that fun. Most people here would advise to tell a powergamer to tone down their character in a more rp-oriented group. Why can't it go the other way?

[Greenish]

I bolded it for you. It implies three things, first that "the others" do not like his choice of characters, the second that he doesn't understand that he's not contributing and third, the last two points are a personal failure. Further as DM you should never bring up the other players when confronting a player about something as it isolates the person you're talking to from the group, especially in this situation. If any DM said that to a fellow player, I'd leave the group because it would only be a matter of time before I was the guy who didn't meet the unspoken "minimum entry requirements".

I don't even know if Wonton is the DM (or really a doctor). I was just trying to say that he ought to tell the player that there's something not matching up. I bloody well didn't mean to suggest he go and start raggin' on the other player. The very same thing as you advised for!

(And then I get told I'm stupid, insensitive jerk who deserves to get hit for suggesting the same thing as you.)

[Tyndmyr]

Because some people act like optimization is objectively inferior/evil.

From a more practical standpoint, it doesn't matter WHO the outlier is in any game...it's easiest to have the one outlier play more like the party than to have the entire party change to match them.

[Evard]

Gestalt

Yes that is the answer, not a barb/wizard multiclass but a Barbarian//Wizard gestalt

The stats you want to boost would be
Int
Str
Con
With true strike and shield... How could he mess that up O_O

[Wonton]

Further as DM you should never bring up the other players when confronting a player about something as it isolates the person you're talking to from the group, especially in this situation.

Whoa, there! I'm not the DM (though I guess my OP was vague before the edit). I'm the Wizard of the party. And approaching a fellow party member with advice on their build/playstyle shouldn't be a problem at any table. In fact, this player has come to me seeking character advice (i.e. "Which do you think will be stronger, build A or build B") before, so he shouldn't be horribly offended or anything.