Spontaneous vs Prepared casting

[shadow_archmagi]

So, people often bring up Wizards as being vastly superior to Sorcerers, because they get more spells. However, I can't help but notice that the wizard gains 2 spells per level.

That leaves the wizard, in theory, with 4 spells of each level they know, plus 8 9th level spells and 10 first level spells (assuming you have 18 INT and took Grey Elf)

The sorcerer winds up with one spell fewer on each level, except for ninth, where admittedly he gets a bit screwed.

The thing is, I really have a lot of trouble seeing how this is HUGE INFERIORITY.

I guess I have three questions, really


1. Does your DM shower you with scrolls? Do you wind up with double or triple the spells, rather than 25% more?

2. Do you actually play games at 18th-19th level, where the wizard REALLY pulls ahead in numbers?

3. Does your DM actually allow you to abusive divination/metagaming/just being too **** smart/etc so that you can predict what is coming on a routine basis?


In my experience, I've always preferred sorcerer, simply because it was a lot harder to predict what was coming and what the best method of killing it would be.

That is, generally my DM preferred to say "AND THEN SUDDENLY SHARKS" than "You'll be playing against sharks tomorrow. You might want to prepare water breathing or something."

When random scrolls HAVE shown up, 90% of them are worthless anyway. Cure light wounds? Hide from plants?

[TaintedLight]

One of the really nice things about having a spellbook is that you can scribe spells from captured spellbooks into it. That's potentially a wealth of knowledge you paid nothing for in terms of character resources other than gold and time, which everyone can have anyways. Plus, there's always Elven Generalist for even more spells known/level.

[TheThan]

Because spontaneous and prepared magic both use the Vancian casting system there is very little difference between them. The only real difference is that wizards have to prepare their spells and sorcerers don’t.

The thing about wizards is that they have access to a lot more spells than sorcerers do. They have no set limit to the number of spells they can know. A wizard cherry picks his spells from a huge list daily, a sorcerer cherry picks his spells from the same list, but he can’t do it daily so he has to be much more discerning in which spells he picks.

[shadow_archmagi]

The thing about wizards is that they have access to a lot more spells than sorcerers do. They have no set limit to the number of spells they can know. A wizard cherry picks his spells from a huge list daily, a sorcerer cherry picks his spells from the same list, but he can’t do it daily so he has to be much more discerning in which spells he picks.

That's what I'm asking. Although there is no MAXIMUM, they have to acquire all the spells, and I was wondering if the rate of spell acquisition was really that amazing.

I was also wondering if being able to say

"I knew we were going to fight batman, so I prepared my bat-repellent spray!"

is more valuable than

"I had no idea this army was coming! I thought it was going to be a pleasant day at the markets. Luckily, there's no reason I can't spend all my spells per day on Fireball!"

[rokar4life]

glasscannon vs batman

[TaintedLight]

That's what I'm asking. Although there is no MAXIMUM, they have to acquire all the spells, and I was wondering if the rate of spell acquisition was really that amazing.

I was also wondering if being able to say

"I knew we were going to fight batman, so I prepared my bat-repellent spray!"

is more valuable than

"I had no idea this army was coming! I thought it was going to be a pleasant day at the markets. Luckily, there's no reason I can't spend all my spells per day on Fireball!"

With a very carefully selected set of spells? Yes, the sorcerer can outshine the wizard. It is totally possible, especially when combined with things like summoning that grant access to other SLAs. It's just really hard to make that happen.

[DementedFellow]

One of the things that always bothered me was that Spontaneous casting is almost always based off another stat besides INT. Wizards get INT + 2 skill points, so do Sorcerers, which leads to a huge difference in terms of how many ranks are spent in each skill.

It's as if the game makers LOVE prepared casting even though it is cumbersome, easily breakable, and a pain to divine what spells you'll use throughout the course of the day.

Also you can cast multiple versions of the same spell in a round when you're a wizard, but if you are a sorcerer even if it is the same empowered Magic Missile then it will take you a full round.

Sorcerers are way more fun to play in terms of Pew-Pew-Pew. Which is, I'm told, the way the game designers wanted the spellcasters to be, instead of battlefield controllers. But if this is the case, why limit what someone can do when it comes NATURALLY?

[Vangor]

In my experience, I've always preferred sorcerer, simply because it was a lot harder to predict what was coming and what the best method of killing it would be.

Why do you prefer the sorcerer? Lack of prediction is worse for the sorcerer who cannot alter spell slot selection day to day. You need to select the broadest spells possible to be at least reasonably effective in the coming career. For the wizard, they can select spells which are moderately effective in most encounters, just as a sorcerer, but have the benefit of after identifying an enemy, gaining information, or similar and adjusting for the next day.

The advantage the sorcerer has is if combat encounters are more general, which won't hamper the wizard but allow the sorcerer to handle more of somewhat. If we are not specifying combat, any issues involving puzzles, social interaction, movement, etc., which are not as immediate or may be prepared for in advance will tend to favor the wizard.

Do not forget, either, the sorcerer has a slower spell level progression by one level. All they truly have is, assuming a specialist wizard, one additional spell per day per level. Not bad, by any stretch, but I would rather have my spells somewhat earlier.

When random scrolls HAVE shown up, 90% of them are worthless anyway. Cure light wounds? Hide from plants?

You should have about a 50/50 of a scroll being arcane or divine, and you can use the vast majority of arcane spells besides those specific to bards. A few scrolls are pretty common to find among any decent area of loot, and any sizable town should contain a store to purchase some additional scrolls. As well, any enemy should employ arcanists if not primarily arcanists themselves which can lead to extensive versatility for the wizard.

[Gorgondantess]

One of the things that always bothered me was that Spontaneous casting is almost always based off another stat besides INT. Wizards get INT + 2 skill points, so do Sorcerers, which leads to a huge difference in terms of how many ranks are spent in each skill.

It's as if the game makers LOVE prepared casting even though it is cumbersome, easily breakable, and a pain to divine what spells you'll use throughout the course of the day.

Actually, yeah, one of the head developers on 3rd edition actually said that he hated the sorcerer.

[TaintedLight]

One of the things that always bothered me was that Spontaneous casting is almost always based off another stat besides INT. Wizards get INT + 2 skill points, so do Sorcerers, which leads to a huge difference in terms of how many ranks are spent in each skill.

It's as if the game makers LOVE prepared casting even though it is cumbersome, easily breakable, and a pain to divine what spells you'll use throughout the course of the day.

Also you can cast multiple versions of the same spell in a round when you're a wizard, but if you are a sorcerer even if it is the same empowered Magic Missile then it will take you a full round.

Sorcerers are way more fun to play in terms of Pew-Pew-Pew. Which is, I'm told, the way the game designers wanted the spellcasters to be, instead of battlefield controllers. But if this is the case, why limit what someone can do when it comes NATURALLY?

This is why my houserule is that sorcerers automatically gain the benefits of the Rapid Metamagic feat at first level. There is absolutely no good reason in my mind why someone specialized in spellcasting should be inadequate at metamagic to the same degree as a bard or a paladin.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Sorcerers are way more fun to play in terms of Pew-Pew-Pew. Which is, I'm told, the way the game designers wanted the spellcasters to be, instead of battlefield controllers. But if this is the case, why limit what someone can do when it comes NATURALLY?

Because they thought sorcerers who can quicken spells would be broken; or rather, more broken than prep casters who can quicken.

[Mnemnosyne]

Divination spells can help considerably toward the problem of knowing what to prepare. A wizard who makes extensive use of divinations to have a decent idea of what she will be facing can prepare an appropriate array of spells. And their spell list theoretically includes every wiz/sorc spell ever, because they can scribe all of them.

And as noted, a wizard can prepare the same spells as a sorcerer, and prepare them one level earlier, if she doesn't know what she's going to face. The sorcerer will be able to cast a few more spells. The wizard, on the other hand, can adjust to anything if given the time to prepare, which she should have against major threats. After all, a random encounter shouldn't be that difficult either way, but the big bad is someone the characters will know a great deal about before they face her, so the wizard will have plenty of knowledge which to draw upon for her spell selection when they go to bring down their enemy.

As for obtaining new spells, if the DM doesn't like to give them out as treasure they can always be purchased. Scrolls aren't all that expensive, and buying a scroll then scribing it gets a wizard a permanent addition to her spell repetoire.

[NelKor]

On the note of scrolls there's no reason a Dm can't mix in Knowstones with loot for Sorcerers, actually if Knowstones are available Sorcerer casting gets a bit more delicious.

[TaintedLight]

On the note of scrolls there's no reason a Dm can't mix in Knowstones with loot for Sorcerers, actually if Knowstones are available Sorcerer casting gets a bit more delicious.

I would be HIGHLY cautious about the inclusion of knowstones myself. Where does the reasonable limit exist? Why not have a sorcerer who just crafts a bunch of knowstones once he's had a chance to study one?

[Vangor]

On the note of scrolls there's no reason a Dm can't mix in Knowstones with loot for Sorcerers, actually if Knowstones are available Sorcerer casting gets a bit more delicious.

Knowstones won't generally be allowed due to being from Dragon Magazine. I think they violate the concept of spontaneous versus prepared spellcasting which is the spontaneous caster does not learn more spells, therefore adaptability is limited. One or two is not bad, especially for spells which may be quite relevant to the campaign which a sorcerer probably has not selected.

My personal preference for helping sorcerers is to return spell progression to the same level as wizards, provide them wizard bonus feats at the same levels, give scribe scroll at first level as a wizard has, and give an Int (yes, Int) to spells known bonus similar to Cha to spell slots bonus. However, the spell known has to be learned in a manner identical to how a wizard would. This means a sorcerer with a 28+ Int could have an additional 9th level spell, permitting they find a 9th level arcane scroll the sorcerer wants to learn.

[Wonton]

You can discuss Tiers until you're blue in the face, but in terms of practical gameplay, the prepared caster often ends up being "The best man for the job, tomorrow.", and if your DM is as secretive as mine, it can be very hard to avoid that paradigm.

[oxybe]

the main difference between the wizard and sorc is versatility. the wizard has versatility in choice, while the sorceror has versatility in use.

a sorceror picks a handfull of spells, and while he doesn't have a large library, he's probably not as boned as a wizard who prepared his spell list expecting ed a day of carousing with nobility and is now... SURPRISE! facing an undead hoard.

the wizard however, can theoretically handle a much larger scope of situations if he has advance knowledge of what he's up against that day. a sorc picks his poison and then he's stuck with it whether he's fighting zombies, chatting up nobility or stuck in a dwarven mine.

a wizard with a big enough repetoire can tailor his spell list for the situation. one day he's blasting as an evoker, the next he's a master at divination, the third he's conjuring up houses for the homeless...

on wednesdays we play pathfinder. we're level 4 and based out of a large enough city. GM said pretty much all level 1-2 spells from the corebook & his companion guides are available. i've sunk a good part of my level 1-3 money grabbing scrolls and learning spells.

right now my wizard has:

Level 0
All

Level 1
Magic Missile
Burning Disarm
Grease
Color Spray
Comprehend Languages
Feather Fall
Identify
Disguise Self
Mount
Protection VS chaos/evil/good/law
Floating Disk
Silent Image
Enlarge Person

Level 2
Admonishing Ray
Locate Object
Invisibility
Glitterdust
Levitate
Knock

we found a spellbook last session as part of a treasure hoard. i don't know if it was from the module the GM was running or as part of his "i'll give you more magic items" promise (we're almost level 5 and we have what... a single magic weapon and one magic armor between the 6 of us? though to be honest half the group is casters and the rest rogues. also, we found like, 4 +1 with enchantment shortswords as part of the treasure). it contained these spells:

Level 1
Break
Burning Disarm
Burning Hands
Cause Fear
Detect Undead
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Magic Weapon
True Strike
Unseen Servant

Level 2
Alter Self
Arcane Lock
Darkness
Flaming Sphere
Fog Cloud
Glitterdust
Gust of Wind
Pyrotechnics
Shatter
Whispering Wind

Level 3
Fireball
Halt Undead
Magic Circle against Law
Phantom Steed
Stinking Cloud
Tiny Hut
Versatile Weapon

Level 4
Fire Shield
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability
Locate Creature

...and a scroll of Contagion.

you'll notice VERY little overlap between the two lists as well as spells i can't even use yet, and once i add these to my spellbook the power of the wizard will go up. not because i can cast more spells or more powerful spells, but because i can better tailor my spell list to the situation we will be facing.

that's why the wizard is generally considered more powerful then the sorc. generally speaking the wizard is better equipped to face a wider array of challenges.

[dextercorvia]

you'll notice VERY little overlap between the two lists as well as spells i can't even use yet, and once i add these to my spellbook the power of the wizard will go up. not because i can cast more spells or more powerful spells, but because i can better tailor my spell list to the situation we will be facing.

that's why the wizard is generally considered more powerful then the sorc. generally speaking the wizard is better equipped to face a wider array of challenges.

Don't add them! Use the Attunement Rules from CArc. DC X+highest level spell in the book spellcraft check, and the whole book becomes yours for free!

I have to look X up, but I believe it is 25.

Edit: Yep, it's 25+highest level spell in the book. (Don't forget you can take 10). If you think you'll have trouble, don't forget you can prepare from a 'borrowed' book with a 15+spell level check -- that's in the SRD.

This is where the wizard gets all the candy. A captured spellbook is honest to goodness gold.

[Goonthegoof]

That one wouldn't work properly, a sorcerer could easily just use PaO on herself and permanently become a 28+ int creature. When that happens the only difference between a sorcerer and a wizard becomes 5 bonus feats vs spontaneous casting.

[dextercorvia]

That one wouldn't work properly, a sorcerer could easily just use PaO on herself and permanently become a 28+ int creature. When that happens the only difference between a sorcerer and a wizard becomes 5 bonus feats vs spontaneous casting.

What won't work properly?

[Goonthegoof]

My personal preference for helping sorcerers is to return spell progression to the same level as wizards, provide them wizard bonus feats at the same levels, give scribe scroll at first level as a wizard has, and give an Int (yes, Int) to spells known bonus similar to Cha to spell slots bonus. However, the spell known has to be learned in a manner identical to how a wizard would. This means a sorcerer with a 28+ Int could have an additional 9th level spell, permitting they find a 9th level arcane scroll the sorcerer wants to learn.

I was referring to this, I replied half an hour later and forgot there would be other replies. I also misread it, I thought he was basically giving them the scribe spell feature =P

[shadow_archmagi]

Why do you prefer the sorcerer? Lack of prediction is worse for the sorcerer who cannot alter spell slot selection day to day.

I have this scenario in my mind

DM: suddenly a canyon
Wizard: I cast fly and go over to the other side and secure a rope
DM: Suddenly bats
Wizard: Oh god! My other prepared spell is Haste! That can't help me here!
*later*
DM: suddenly another canyon
Wizard: Oh no, I don't have a second Fly prepared!

Divination spells can help considerably toward the problem of knowing what to prepare.

And as noted, a wizard can prepare the same spells as a sorcerer, and prepare them one level earlier, if she doesn't know what she's going to face.

I havn't found Divination to be very helpful, to be honest. Scrying just gives you a 20 ft sphere of vision. Contact Other Plane risks lies and mental failure.

[Vangor]

That one wouldn't work properly, a sorcerer could easily just use PaO on herself and permanently become a 28+ int creature. When that happens the only difference between a sorcerer and a wizard becomes 5 bonus feats vs spontaneous casting.

The difference between both would not be the bonus feats, since I include them, but spontaneous casting versus vastly more spells known, unless the same DM houseruling in the new additions to the sorcerer also shafts the party wizard on available scrolls to learn, which seems rather unlikely. But, you are speaking about using a broken spell in order to abuse a houserule meant to help a sorcerer. If anything in all of D&D should not be abused, houserules meant to help you are it.

Besides, you know who uses sorcerers in all of the groups I have played in? Newer players wanting to try spellcasting without the bookkeeping and preparation of a wizard. They are not attempting to abuse PaO.

I have this scenario in my mind

DM: suddenly a canyon
Wizard: I cast fly and go over to the other side and secure a rope
DM: Suddenly bats
Wizard: Oh god! My other prepared spell is Haste! That can't help me here!
*later*
DM: suddenly another canyon
Wizard: Oh no, I don't have a second Fly prepared!

Sorcerer: Oh no, a canyon and I am only level 5.
Sorcerer at level 6: Oh no, a place where fly is useless but gaseous form is useful.
Sorcerer at level 7: Hey DM, can I deal 7d6 damage to the group of Drow with my gaseous form?

[dextercorvia]

I have this scenario in my mind

DM: suddenly a canyon
Wizard: I cast fly and go over to the other side and secure a rope
DM: Suddenly bats
Wizard: Oh god! My other prepared spell is Haste! That can't help me here!
*later*
DM: suddenly another canyon
Wizard: Oh no, I don't have a second Fly prepared!

I'm confused as to why your Wizard only has two spells prepared, period?

[TaintedLight]

Alacritous Cogitation? That one helps the wizard out quite a bit. Not to mention that your DM is being a jerk if he's constantly throwing you curveballs just to mess with you. Challenges shouldn't be designed FOR the players, but they should be designed such that the players can overcome them in one form or another.

[Wonton]

Alacritous Cogitation? That one helps the wizard out quite a bit. Not to mention that your DM is being a jerk if he's constantly throwing you curveballs just to mess with you. Challenges shouldn't be designed FOR the players, but they should be designed such that the players can overcome them in one form or another.

Uncanny Forethought is better in every way than AC. As for challenges, it comes down to style of DM-ing. My DM's idea of challenge is "you're caught unprepared, now you get to improvise"... which fits a Sorcerer's playstyle better, IMO.

[TaintedLight]

Uncanny Forethought is better in every way than AC. As for challenges, it comes down to style of DM-ing. My DM's idea of challenge is "you're caught unprepared, now you get to improvise"... which fits a Sorcerer's playstyle better, IMO.

That's actually the one I meant.

[Andion Isurand]

I dont like Uncanny Forethought because it reads like they left out a few details.

[Kalrik]

I play pathfinder and I am very pleased with the fluff that the sorcerer gets.

In any case, Wizards have to sink loads of money into their spellbooks, which can be taken away. While not something I tend to do as a gm, if the Big Bad is something that is highly intellectual, trying to capture the wizards spell book isn't a bad idea if killing the wizard isn't easy...not that any good wizard will allow his spell book to be captured easily. Point: it can be taken away.

I have always viewed the sorcerer as a highly specialized caster with a theme or a niche'. Past that, sorcerers should have tons of scrolls, potions, wands, rods, one shot wonderous items, etc. They have to be even more prepared than a wizard if they want to keep up. That is my personal view...I have rarely seen anyone else play the way I do.

For the Record; my favorite classes are the batman wizard and clerics...not nescessarily CoDzilla.

[TaintedLight]

I play pathfinder and I am very pleased with the fluff that the sorcerer gets.

In any case, Wizards have to sink loads of money into their spellbooks, which can be taken away. While not something I tend to do as a gm, if the Big Bad is something that is highly intellectual, trying to capture the wizards spell book isn't a bad idea if killing the wizard isn't easy...not that any good wizard will allow his spell book to be captured easily. Point: it can be taken away.

I have always viewed the sorcerer as a highly specialized caster with a theme or a niche'. Past that, sorcerers should have tons of scrolls, potions, wands, rods, one shot wonderous items, etc. They have to be even more prepared than a wizard if they want to keep up. That is my personal view...I have rarely seen anyone else play the way I do.

For the Record; my favorite classes are the batman wizard and clerics...not nescessarily CoDzilla.

Leomund's Secret Chest for that extra spellbook that you keep because you're smart, right?