Paladin and undead tolerance (sort of)

[Reis Tahlen]

Hi everybody!

I'm trying to figure out a Paladin character who could accept uses of Undead as a way to fight evil.

The setting of the campaign: Faerun, but Greyhawks gods are accepted also.

The campaign is around an extremely old entity who tries to -guess what- take over the world. He tries to do so by sending people collecting powerfull artifacts and attracting the world's heroes and villains to his side; these people are made into groups, and into these groups, members cannot harm or kill each other, or suffer the same consequences than their victim, intentionnaly or not.

This allows groups with good and evil characters, forced to work together. And this is where I need some advice: playing essentialy good aligned characters, I always could find a way to tolerate some use of "evilness" to fight a greater evil; RP and rules speaking, there are no trouble about that when it comes to a good aligned mage or warrior.

The problem is, I really, REALLY want to play a Paladin. And in the group, there's a Lawful Neutral Priest specialized in conjurating and animating the dead. The player is cool, and could manage to tone down the evil side of his character for a more pragmatic, near-good user of Necromancy. But I must first find a deity, a way, or a plausible explanation for a Paladin to accept Undeads by his side.

If it can be any help, with multiclassing or whatever, the character will be level 8.

Thanks for your advices!

[Evard]

Play a paladin variant :)

Paladin of freedom or tyranny sounds good :P

[Soranar]

Unless your deity specifically denies it, undead are not inherently evil (kinda like constructs recycling spare parts... from bodies).

But most classes that use them are often evil. So , unless the character controlling them is evil, I would allow it.

But it's stated that Paladins can never associate with evil characters, you're really begging to fall at this point.

[Aroka]

You'll pretty much need to convince the DM to change either undead (so mindless undead like zombies and skeletons aren't automatically evil-aligned) or, and this should be easier, moderate the paladin's code into not tolerating evil deeds, rather than just not tolerating evil-aligned companions. Then you would, of course, need a creed that permits undead creatures. Kelemvor the death-god is right out, because his creed says undead are abominations. Other good-aligned deities generally don't have a clear stance on undead but are presumed against them by default, and have nothing to do with death.

Maybe the Mulhorandi (Egyptian) pantheon? They have a Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral death deity (Osiris) and "undead" ruler deity, don't they, and use mummies as tomb guardians and all that jazz? Seems like it'd fit right in - paladin who sees undeath not as abomination, but as a potential tool that can be used right or wrong.

Unless your deity specifically denies it, undead are not inherently evil (kinda like constructs recycling spare parts... from bodies).

That's the stupid thing - they are explicitly evil. Mindless skeletons and zombies are Neutral Evil.

There can be plenty of reasons undead could be inherently evil, but none are really used in D&D by default (negative energy is not, in itself, evil, just negative and anti-life and entropic).

[Evard]

Still any DM could legally smite him and it would be kosher.

But ask the player who creates them to make them look like they are alive! Like give them clothing and stuff and just say they are minions XD That could be a lot of fun to play :)

[FelixG]

I would say it pretty much comes down to the code.

Its not ok to smit someone or something just cause it pings on evil-o-dar.

So if your smiting and destroying this persons undead "jest because" that would lead to a crash...

I would say that even a normal paladin could travel with this guy, even, or better BECAUSE he is a necromancer claiming to be good, you could watch his use of undead to make sure he stays in line and doesn't succumb to the (arguably) vile magics.

This serves a duel purpose of you being able to watch him AND keeping other, more short sited, "do gooders" (read: short sided jerks who wear shiny armor) from attacking the minions because they have your word as a fellow pali that this is good folk that you are travelling with and that his use of the undead are benevolent.

[Evard]

Wait so when it comes down to it... You want a PALADIN being a baby sitter... WOW that's a scary thought XD lol

But that is a good idea also :)

Here is the process I think you should take...

1st: Ask Dm if normal paladin will work (if no go to the next step)
2nd:Paladin of tyranny or freedom (if you don't like them go to the next step)
3rd: Try to role play it in without the DM's consent ... this may lead to crashing and burning though... But there is always Blackgaurd ... :D

[Starbuck_II]

Hi everybody!

I'm trying to figure out a Paladin character who could accept uses of Undead as a way to fight evil.

The setting of the campaign: Faerun, but Greyhawks gods are accepted also.

The campaign is around an extremely old entity who tries to -guess what- take over the world. He tries to do so by sending people collecting powerfull artifacts and attracting the world's heroes and villains to his side; these people are made into groups, and into these groups, members cannot harm or kill each other, or suffer the same consequences than their victim, intentionnaly or not.

This allows groups with good and evil characters, forced to work together. And this is where I need some advice: playing essentialy good aligned characters, I always could find a way to tolerate some use of "evilness" to fight a greater evil; RP and rules speaking, there are no trouble about that when it comes to a good aligned mage or warrior.

The problem is, I really, REALLY want to play a Paladin. And in the group, there's a Lawful Neutral Priest specialized in conjurating and animating the dead. The player is cool, and could manage to tone down the evil side of his character for a more pragmatic, near-good user of Necromancy. But I must first find a deity, a way, or a plausible explanation for a Paladin to accept Undeads by his side.

If it can be any help, with multiclassing or whatever, the character will be level 8.

Thanks for your advices!

Wee Jas is Goddess of Magic/death (she likes undead)

[Reis Tahlen]

Thanks all, there're a lot of good ideas I can work on.

Paladin of Liberty: "Leave the guy alone: he fought evil more often than you'll ever do, and that's enough for me"
Paladin of Tyranny: "First we control undead... THEN THE WORLD!"
Paladin of Osiris: "These are nothing but empty shells, for their souls have already been judged."
Baby-sitter Paladin of X :<Point his eyes, then the Cleric, and silently says: "I'm watching you">
Future Blackguard: "We fight evil by all means necessary, and sacrificed as much as we could, and THIS is how the gods treat me?! The hell with them!"

[Ashiel]

My Paladin of Wee Jass doesn't mind undead, and even professes their usefulness (as well as the blessings of the witch goddess); and plays almost like a gish-caster half the time.

If I can get it OK'd, I might see about getting her a wand of animate dead later on before she becomes an archlich.

[Reis Tahlen]

Oooh, I like the Paladin of Wy-Djas!

[Eurus]

Maybe the Mulhorandi (Egyptian) pantheon? They have a Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral death deity (Osiris) and "undead" ruler deity, don't they, and use mummies as tomb guardians and all that jazz? Seems like it'd fit right in - paladin who sees undeath not as abomination, but as a potential tool that can be used right or wrong.

I've actually seen someone play a mummy paladin before. It was pretty awesome.

[Dr.Epic]

Unless your deity specifically denies it, undead are not inherently evil (kinda like constructs recycling spare parts... from bodies).

Name five undead that aren't evil.

[Tiki Snakes]

If my memory serves, I believe one of the common fallback solutions to this kind of thing is roll a Crusader, pick an appropriate God and call yourself a Paladin.

Benefits; Apparently plays like a slightly better paladin, without the more extreme silliness of the Paladin's code stuff.

I'm just going by memory of other peoples advice though, so YMMV.

[Sir_Elderberry]

I think the CG Paladin - LN Cleric interaction would be pretty fun. You'd be cool with him raising the dead--assuming that your DM says that's not an Evil act--but have a huge alignment conflict nonetheless.

[Tiki Snakes]

Name five undead that aren't evil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummies_Alive!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duckula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_%28TV_series%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_de_Pointe_du_Lac
half the cast of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Being_H...28TV_series%29
and that's just a few off the top of my head.

Notable mention goes to the billion sad and harmless ghosts in all manner of media.
I won't include the sparkly guys, because they are clearly Fey.

[Dr.Epic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummies_Alive!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duckula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_%28TV_series%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_de_Pointe_du_Lac
half the cast of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Being_H...28TV_series%29
and that's just a few off the top of my head.

Notable mention goes to the billion sad and harmless ghosts in all manner of media.
I won't include the sparkly guys, because they are clearly Fey.

Undead in D&D (I thought that was implied)

[Evard]

Crusader is a great option, they are all around a better class than the paladin...

[Reis Tahlen]

Crusader, isn't this a Tome of Battle class? Because it isn't available in french (I think you could assume english is not my mother language with all the numerous errors here and there) and my GM doesn't allow english books... Meh!

[Ashiel]

Undead in D&D (I thought that was implied)

Skeletal Dragons (Draconomicon)
Zombie Dragons (Draconomicon)
Archliches and Baelnorn (Monsters of Faerun and Libris Mortis)
Ghosts (Monster Manual - they can be any good or neutral alignments)
Necropolitan (Libris Mortis - like ghosts)

As well as all skeletons and zombies in 3.0 and prior. Also in earlier editions, mummies were often Lawful Good.

[Ravens_cry]

Skeletal Dragons (Draconomicon)
Zombie Dragons (Draconomicon)
Archliches and Baelnorn (Monsters of Faerun and Libris Mortis)
Ghosts (Monster Manual - they can be any good or neutral alignments)
Necropolitan (Libris Mortis - like ghosts)

As well as all skeletons and zombies in 3.0 and prior. Also in earlier editions, mummies were often Lawful Good.

And mummies are only usually lawful evil. This leaves plenty of Neutral and even a few Good mummies.

[Starbuck_II]

Also afew more (non-evil) undead type:
Bloodrot (Always Neutral)
Blood Amniote (Always neutral)
Brain in a Jar (usually NE, so possible to be good or neutral)
Deathlock (usually NE, so possible to be good or neutral)
Ghost Brute (Usually neutral)
Gravetouched Touch (Usually Neutral)
1/2 Vamp (Usually NE, so possible to be good or neutral)
Gooded Pupil (Usually CE, so possible to be good or neutral)
Raiment (Usually CE, so possible to be good or neutral)
Swarmshifter (Usually NE, so possible to be good or neutral)

[WinWin]

Death Delver prestige class from HoH. A divine caster with access to Rebuke Undead. One of the prerequisites is that you must have been near death (0hp or lower). Might make a good PrC dip for a chosen of Wee Jas.

[hamishspence]

The Faerun deity Tyr has had some undead paladins before- though in some cases they failed in life, and were given a second chance in death.

1/2 Vamp (Usually NE, so possible to be good or neutral)
Hooded Pupil (Usually CE, so possible to be good or neutral)

Hooded Pupils are Always Evil (any)- the sample hooded pupil is an Ettin, which is why it's "usually chaotic evil"

The half-vampire template doesn't have a listed alignment- but the sample one was a gnoll- which is "usually chaotic evil" So you could have a Good half-vampire- if the base creature doesn't have an alignment restriction.

However, neither of these templates actually changes the base creature into an undead.

Curst (MoF, Lost Empires of Faerun) are "Always Chaotic Neutral"
Revenants (MoF, City of the Spider Queen are "Always Neutral"