Wildly different optimization levels

[WarKitty]

How do you build challenges for a party of wildly different optimization levels? I have a party of 6 with everything from "spends hours poring over books to build their character" to "eyes glaze over trying to pick a bonus feat out of the SRD list" to "picked combat reflexes because he thought it increased his AC." It's getting pretty hard to design encounters for them; either the optimized portion walks all over the encounter or the non-optimized members get killed.

Edit: Here's what I have

Optimized barbarian; party damage-dealer.
Optimized rogue; decent at dealing damage, great at sneaking and such Decent ranger; getting better with the addition of some to-hit bonuses
Decent sorcerer; contributes well as needed due to being a sorcerer
non-optimized bard; has not used spells to my memory
Non-optimized barbarian; can't hit anything at all

[Awnetu]

Fights with reasons for the party to split up?

Say an army of mooks that badger the lower optimized players, while the more powerful ones deal with the Boss or whatever?

Encounters designed not around the rules of the game, but around riddles or puzzles?

Maybe bring a NPC along whose entire goal is to lift up the weaker members via buffs, and battlefield control?



Alternatively, you could sit down with the players and help them rebuild. Or talk to the optimizing players and ask them to tone down their characters. Or pick classes from a lower tier.





Another solution, but uglier is to run the campaign to the power level of your better optimized players, but suitable for a smaller amount, and have the poorly built character's players come to you after their characters get destroyed by a random fireball of doom.

*Edit* Seems like you have 4 characters who do well, just 2 lackluster ones? In that case, try interesting them in something a bit more powerful that fits the same role? Say warblade or druid?

[Zeta Kai]

Split the party in two for combat challenges. The non-optimizers get a light challenge (under-CR monsters, some easy traps, an antagonistic NPC with high-tier class levels), while the optimizers get put through a threshing machine (over-CR monsters, SoD/S, NPCs with caster levels). A good way to arrange this is to have a clear goal, two separate sub-goals that depend on each other & a tight time-table.

Example: The party needs to rescue the princess from the enemy's extradimensional stronghold before the portal closes forever, but also needs to destroy the portal-projection crystal before the BBEG uses it to [bring in his armies/merge the two dimensions/shunt all sentient life to the Far Plane/do something else really bad soon]. If they don't split up, they'll only have time for one of the two tasks. The crystal is lightly protected by the BBEG; the real challenge is his stronghold, which is on their home turf & houses most of the enemy's forces.

[WarKitty]

I have actually tried to split the party. Unfortunately it seems to end up with one optimized and one non-optimized in each group whenever I try it. I have done some puzzle or riddle-based encounters, but my optimizers get bored without enough combat.

[Awnetu]

Maybe give the optimizers a heads up on what you are trying to do?

Otherwise, this looks like a case of the needs(wants in this case) of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If talking to the optimizers has already been tried, and you cannot help the non optimized players out for whatever reason, it seems like you are stuck catering the lowest denominator. That sucks, but the players need to come together to help you out in that case.


*edit* Do your less optimized players care about being overshadowed?

[Zeta Kai]

I have actually tried to split the party. Unfortunately it seems to end up with one optimized and one non-optimized in each group whenever I try it. I have done some puzzle or riddle-based encounters, but my optimizers get bored without enough combat.

Try again, but this time, steer the KitD-types to the combat-oriented goal, while the non-opts get the exploration & puzzles. This shouldn't be to hard if your up-front with your players & they're game. If they deliberately try to thwart that plan, even after understanding your reasons for it, then you have a different problem (IE jerks).

[Frosty]

You need to train your players better, Warkitty I've went through entire sessions without my players swinging their weapons a single time. They need tolearn to enjoy being immersed in the story and investigating and stuff.

[WarKitty]

I really don't want to punish the optimizers. None of them are min-maxed really. Boosting up the non-optimizers might be the best option if I can find a polite way to do so. Part of the problem is I have two players that really don't want to have to deal with OPTIONS. And it's a fairly high-level game (level 10). These two want a pretty much predictable routine that they can use on everything, and I'm not sure what to give them.

And I do hate to cheat my optimizers out of the puzzles and such. They really are good role-players. The rogue especially is great at RP, one of the best characterizations I've seen.

[Awnetu]

Trippers/Chargers? Point them to a blaster wizard or better yet, a warlock.

[Greenish]

I really don't want to punish the optimizers. None of them are min-maxed really. Boosting up the non-optimizers might be the best option if I can find a polite way to do so. Part of the problem is I have two players that really don't want to have to deal with OPTIONS. And it's a fairly high-level game (level 10). These two want a pretty much predictable routine that they can use on everything, and I'm not sure what to give them.

Hmm, DFI for the bard and the basic charger stuff for the barbarian?

[Edit]: Also, from both the players' and their characters' perspective it makes sense that if the party is split, both groups have a stronger PC in it, just in case.

[WarKitty]

Hmm, DFI for the bard and the basic charger stuff for the barbarian?

[Edit]: Also, from both the players' and their characters' perspective it makes sense that if the party is split, both groups have a stronger PC in it, just in case.

DFI? The bard's the hard one really. Thankfully the optimized and the non-optimized barbarians have very different styles (TWF versus sword-and-board), so it's easier to tailor loot.

[Frosty]

Dungeoncrasher Fighters are pretty simple. They'll just rush-rush everything. IF they'll let you re-spec for them, build them some comeptent PCs with just a few options. For the bard, he can spend all day Inspiring Courage. You just make sure the bard has all the items and feats to buff IC to the sky.

[Awnetu]

DFI - Dragonfire Inspiration

Turns your Inspire Courage into Horrible Rays of Death.

1d6 points of damage per +1 of Inspire Courage.

Essentially, Words of Creation (BoED) + Song of the Heart (ECS) + Badge of Valor (MIC) + Vest of Legends (DMG 2) to maximize the Inspire Courage boost, pick a dragon type with the Dragonfire Inspiration feat, and go to town.

Also by using the feat Lingering Song, the Inspire Courage will last for a minute.

so you start off singing Inspire Courage normally, then the next round start a new song, this time using the bonus granted by Dragonfire inspiration.

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Only problem with that trick is, in 2 rounds, hes done, now he just hits stuff. Maybe exactly what he is looking for though.

[Tengu_temp]

Ask the underpowered players do they feel overshadowed. If they do, tell them they can rebuild their characters if they want, and give them some tips that will let them make their characters more effective, while still being the same concept-wise.

Another problem here is that you seem to have two differently underpowered PCs. The barbarian is badly built, while the bard is badly played. The above advice is useful for both, but unless the bard's player learns at least the basics of the game, he might still end up being useless.

[Greenish]

DFI - Dragonfire Inspiration
<…>
Only problem with that trick is, in 2 rounds, hes done, now he just hits stuff. Maybe exactly what he is looking for though.

Well, he can just keep singing, maybe even pick, say, Extra Music instead of Lingering Song. Then he can just sing all the time. I'd find it boring, but if he specifically didn't want options…

[WarKitty]

Ask the underpowered players do they feel overshadowed. If they do, tell them they can rebuild their characters if they want, and give them some tips that will let them make their characters more effective, while still being the same concept-wise.

Another problem here is that you seem to have two differently underpowered PCs. The barbarian is badly built, while the bard is badly played. The above advice is useful for both, but unless the bard's player learns at least the basics of the game, he might still end up being useless.

That might be the biggest problem. The bard's player really likes the idea of a bard, but she doesn't really want to learn the intricacies of the game. Although I might be able to fix a bit of that - anyone know any good fun spells? She doesn't like attacking, but wreaking havoc with a grease type spell seems her style.

[Awnetu]

Uh...http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.a...sb/sb20010126a What? Too powerful?

Improvisation (SC) is a fun spell, but requires a bit of knowledge about the Skill system.

Glitterdust of course, Glibness/Prestidigitation.

Marbles and maybe caltrops to interest them in thinks like flat footedness while making the player more aware of the benefits of certain skills?

Amplify(SpC) could be fun if they like to screw around with people/learn things as well.

Greater Blink? (SpC) gives a little night crawler like element to the bard.

Celebration (SpC), people who fail the saves get more and more intoxicated, pretty much emulating a night out on the town, and the hangover.

Cheat(SpC), only works on in game games, but is fun none the less.

Creaking Cacophony(SpC), disrupts enemy spell casters and makes enemies weak to sonic attacks.

Delusions of Grandeur (SpC). The opponent is amazing... or rather.. he THINKS he is amazing.

This list is making me wanna play a bard again.

[WarKitty]

Uh...http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.a...sb/sb20010126a What? Too powerful?

Improvisation (SC) is a fun spell, but requires a bit of knowledge about the Skill system.

Glitterdust of course, Glibness/Prestidigitation.

Marbles and maybe caltrops to interest her in thinks like flat footedness while making her more aware of the benefits of certain skills?

Wrong style. She'd make a great battlefield controller with the right spell set, it seems her style.

[Awnetu]

Alright Celebration, Creaking Cacophony are probably more in line I think?

[WarKitty]

Chatted with one of my more experienced players just now. The biggest problem is the bard's player. She's a great role-player, but she just doesn't seem to get the system. Doesn't seem to understand what feats do, or what to do when a bonus or penalty to something gets applied. (Barbarian not as much concern because he's leaving soon.)

Anyone have any handy tips on teaching the 3.5 system to a confused player? My other players love it so I don't think we want to switch.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well... I would say just have a session where you get out the player's handbook, and sit down, and with her paying close attention, go through all the steps of creating a level 1 character that has spells that affect enemies, spells that affect themselves, some class abilities, some useful skills, and go through a sample encounter specifically designed to teach her how to use the abilities of that character. Also sit down and tell her that D&D mostly has rules for running a combat miniatures game, where characters are designed to fight enemies using class abilities and support a group which is also fighting enemies using class abilities, and just have a talk about the KINDS of things she wants to be able to do in that context, and then show her the rules (from whichever books are relevent) that would support her preferred playstyle, and just, as a group, help her build the sort of character that she wants to play, and talk about the abilities of the build... Talk about how rules mastery and making the numbers follow her idea of the character, and understanding what those numbers mean, improves the capability of having the character be able to interact with the world in the ways she imagines.

[Kantolin]

If all she wants to do is sing, then I say let her sing! If the worry is optimization, then as the DM hand her some extremely useful things that help her sing better.

Rather than giving her dragonfire inspiration, have a plot sequence where a king, or other bard, or grateful town that's just been saved, or something. He/She/They give her an instrument (Or weapon, if she sings) which can change her song into doing +1d6 element damage. Pick the element for her or give her multiple instruments or let her pick which element it is.

Have her hang around the back. Have monsters just not attack her terribly frequently - tactics frequently can make an encounter tougher or not. She's probably not well built to be swung at, and that can be fine too - have her not be swung at often and suggest she keeps back.

Now, the barbarian is a bit tougher to do this to, but you can do similarly insofar as his inability to hit things - have him get a cookie which helps him do his job somewhat more effectively. Depending on optimization, it can give him more accuracy (Perhaps a [weapon] that gives him a very large to-hit and a smaller damage?), or make his attack touch attacks, or something. Make sure it's specialized to him - race, specific class, tribe he's from, alignment, whatever about him's different from the other barbarian. Ensure this comes up in plot.

Something like that. Not RAW, but certainly aids in fun - they may be more appreciative of this than being asked to rebuild their character when they clearly don't find it fun to do so. You can add lateral cookies later on if the others get unhappy - cookies that are neat, but provide lateral options and not more power.

[WarKitty]

I'm getting a sort of feeling that the two non-optimized players are hanging back in combat. When your bard says "I play inspire courage the whole time, run the combat while I go get more soda," something's wrong. I'd really like all my players to be involved. We already have plenty of RP stuff, which they do enjoy, so I don't think adding more non-combat RP would be fair to my other players. I have a feeling if I could get the two of them to see combat as another chance to roleplay their characters they would be much more engaged.

[Gavinfoxx]

Give the Bard player an autoplaying instrument that automatically does their inspire courage, so they have their full level of actions available to them....

[arrowhen]

Anyone have any handy tips on teaching the 3.5 system to a confused player?

The best way to teach a new player 3.5 is to let them start with a first-level character in a party of normal characters built with standard PHB races and classes. It might not be practical for your group, but it's the best way for a new player to learn the basics.

Throwing them into a high-level campaign with optimizers in the group is like handing someone a guitar and expecting to be a contributing member of your highly technical power-metal band when they haven't even learned their basic chords and scales yet.

[Cespenar]

Involve the "bored with the combat" players individually to make them more interested. During combat, pick one of the enemies, customize it just a bit more (give it a name, perhaps), make it go for the bard, and do something antagonizing - taunt her, grapple/trip/disarm her, something specific to stir her up and differentiate from "I use my song the entire time" or "I attack". Do this a couple of times, then point out subtly that choosing this feat over that would help her in these kinds of situations, etc.

Also, since she doesn't seem like enjoying combat a lot, give her some extra stuff to do in combat. Perhaps she can go and pull a lever somewhere that closes the portcullis that divides the enemy ranks in two. Or she can throw a torch just in the right place to make all the barrels go boom. Think of action movies and get inspiration from how non-combatant characters make do with what they have, and apply them to your game.

[Awnetu]

An Archrival perhaps? Nale would be a good one.

[WarKitty]

The best way to teach a new player 3.5 is to let them start with a first-level character in a party of normal characters built with standard PHB races and classes. It might not be practical for your group, but it's the best way for a new player to learn the basics.

Throwing them into a high-level campaign with optimizers in the group is like handing someone a guitar and expecting to be a contributing member of your highly technical power-metal band when they haven't even learned their basic chords and scales yet.

None of my players are really super experienced. The high level was an unfortunate result of a switch over to 3.5 from a homebrew system. It's just sort of surprised me - most of my players took to it pretty well, it's just these two.

[Greenish]

If the worry is optimization, then as the DM hand her some extremely useful things that help her sing better.

Now, the barbarian is a bit tougher to do this to, but you can do similarly insofar as his inability to hit things - have him get a cookie which helps him do his job somewhat more effectively.

Something like that. Not RAW, but certainly aids in fun - they may be more appreciative of this than being asked to rebuild their character when they clearly don't find it fun to do so. You can add lateral cookies later on if the others get unhappy - cookies that are neat, but provide lateral options and not more power.

I feel you'd be doing a disfavour for the players doing this. It's all fine and dandy for one campaign, but if you're trying to teach them the basics of the game, just fiating their characters to be better won't help them learn anything.

[bokodasu]

Hey, this could be me sometimes - I'm busy, I don't always have time that I want to spend learning new systems. And 3.5 is a big system and kind of intimidating.

What worked for me was when my DM broke it down and made me learn one rule at a time. I'm learning all the druid rules right now, so last session we focused on how I can (and mostly can't) use my animal companion, this session we're going to just go over all the tripping-related rules. It's not a quick-fix solution, but it is effective over time.

Pick one new thing she might like to learn to do, and just do singing + that one thing. Then next session, do singing + that one thing + one new thing. Break down any things that are really complicated into smaller component things. (e.g. "Cast spells, dammit!" isn't a thing; "cast spell x" is.)