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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    I missed a big game session last week, and I finally got filled in as to what happened.
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    The PCs tried to enter a castle while armed. The guards demanded they place the weapons into a bag for safety reasons. 1 PC, a rogue, conceals his main +5 weapon and drops the rest. The other PC is a sword mage, so he simply sword bond his main weapon back when nobody is looking. The last pc simply goes with his bare fists. As they walk down the hall with the man holding their weapons, the BBEG shows up. He starts attacking and the man holding all the weapons DROPS the bag and flees. Everybody charges the bad guy and starts whaling on him. Three rounds later, the BBEG sees the bag on the floor full of weapons and threatens to planeshift the items unless the PCs back off. They charge him and the BBEG planeshifts the weapons away.
    Here's everybody's excuse:
    DM: You guys left the bag of loot on the ground forever. Then you attacked me when I threated to planeshift the loot away.
    Rogue: Left for vacation after that session. Still no response from him.
    Swordmage: "It's not my problem or my fault."
    PC#3: "I lost my weapons too, I had to fight with my fists"

    TLDR: The BBEG managed to get all our weapons into a bag, and then planeshifted the bag. Then as the boss died, the boss casted Disjunction on everybody.

    Afterwards, the DM said the Disjunction was to clear away some overpowered, messy, custom items that he wanted gone. But he also said that he wasn't going to replace our lost weapons. Now that isn't a problem for the three who still have a main weapon, but my wizard and seeker don't have anything that is close to a +5 magic item anymore.

    What should I do?
    1. I can say this is outrageous and play as if nothing happened.
    2. Go on an adventure and grind my way back up the magic item ladder.
    3. I can fudge what weapons that "I" placed in the bag, and go retrieve my "spares" from my wizard tower.
    Who the heck do I blame, or get petty revenge on? Is it anybody's fault? Other than not being terribly sympathetic, perceptive, or not realizing how shafted I am, I can't blame them for having tunnel vision.

    Edit: The player with the PC with the bare fists is around 8 years old, so I don't blame her.
    Last edited by HMS Invincible; 2010-08-23 at 01:40 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Its only loot. Theres nothing intrinsically wrong with destroying all of the PCs stuff, and the DM may have a very good reason.

    If the DM is doing it just to screw you guys around, then you may have a point, but the problem then becomes "this group isnt fun", and not "my dm destroyed my items".

    You should be having fun roleplaying and killing monsters, not treating d&d like some sort of world of warcraft clone where the only goal is to grind epic lootz.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    I'd just talk to your DM if you are really unhappy about it.

    Argue that you were not present but being a wizard you would have retrieved your items as soon as the fighting started due simply to high intelligence if nothing else.

    On the other hand he may also use retrieving your lost items as a plot hook for the next adventure.

    At any rate its just loot and I'm sure seeing the party gear levels become that unbalanced you'll be seeing another (Item you use) showing up the the near future.

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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    As far as I see it you are going to be out of luck. You can try to reason with the DM. I'm guessing that won't get you far. According to what you said he got rid of the items cause they were too powerful and he wanted them gone and he wasn't going to let you get them back.

    If your DM was reasonable he would have talked to everyone in the first place come to some common ground like admitting the items are too powerful so they go away and a quest will start to find them again, or just change the weapons to something a bit less powerful and move on or the weapons are less powerful for now but as you level they will become stronger again. almost anything could have been done

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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    If you want a loophole, go with Gandalf's. Basically, you were asked to drop your weapons, and my wizard's glass sphere is clearly not a weapon.

    Seriously though, talk to your DM about it. Suggest to him that your wizard might use divination to find out where the items got planeshifted to, and ask that the next session be a short extraplanar quest where the party gets their loot back.

    You say you "don't have anything that's close to a +5", so what do you have? Still got a +3 implement around? If not, why not use the Enchant Magic Item ritual to make one? Even a +4 should be affordable from spare change if you're around level 20. And if you're not around level 20, that begs the question why you had +5 gear in the first place

    Note (1) having a +3 implement instead of +5 reduces your to-hit chance by 10%, which is not desirable but not the end of the world either; (2) since wizards have many area attacks and autohit effects, your to-hit bonus is less important to you; and (3) there will be more loot in the future.
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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    1. I can say this is outrageous and play as if nothing happened.
    Unless I greatly mistake your meaning, this is just nonsensical. It's not your reality, it's a shared reality and the DM is the arbiter. If he says it's gone, it's gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    2. Go on an adventure and grind my way back up the magic item ladder.
    What grind? You go on an adventure and find an item in the treasure. It's not like you have to find a 1st level magic item, then a 3rd, then a 5th, or they have a 1% drop rate and you have to grind Molten Core for months to get the item you like. You can just find one that's great for you already. This is entirely up to your DM, obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    3. I can fudge what weapons that "I" placed in the bag, and go retrieve my "spares" from my wizard tower.
    Cheating is just sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    Who the heck do I blame
    The DM. Why do you need to blame anyone, though? It's just items. Get new ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    or get petty revenge on?
    Come on, you know what people are going to say about this one.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    What a bunch of BS. This BBEG's sole purpose is to relieve you of items. What kind of bad guy has the goal of taking away your items at the expense of his own life?

    I could planeshift myself to safety as the party beats me down.....or... better yet, planeshift their items muhahahahahhh!! That is stupid. That is related to the enemy stopping to coup de grace your unconscious/helpless team mates when there are active threats with whom they should be more concerned.

    I am not saying that taking away items when the DM whoopses and gives the party too much power is a bad thing but at least be smarter about it and at least give the party something a little more legit and believable. Plenty of monsters out there that can do the trick or have a sundering big bad guy.

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    Killer Angel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    IAfterwards, the DM said the Disjunction was to clear away some overpowered, messy, custom items that he wanted gone. But he also said that he wasn't going to replace our lost weapons. Now that isn't a problem for the three who still have a main weapon, but my wizard and seeker don't have anything that is close to a +5 magic item anymore.
    Probably, if magical objects of the group were too powerful, and someone saved his main +5 weapons, the DM is planning to get rid of them too the next time.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2010-08-23 at 07:01 AM.
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    One thing often gets overlooked when DMs destroy stuff:
    It means that the players get shiny new stuff in the future! And new stuff is usually shinier than old stuff. It is because it is newer, i think.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Would be interested to know what level you guys are, indeed.

    And Enchant Magic Item is the way to go.

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    Afterwards, the DM said the Disjunction was to clear away some overpowered, messy, custom items that he wanted gone. But he also said that he wasn't going to replace our lost weapons.
    This is the root of the problem. Using DM fiat to "fix" overpowered loot just makes everyone upset. Far better to just tell the players "hey, I think I gave you some stuff that was too powerful, mind if I tweak it?" If the players object, well, point out that they can either agree or the DM shuts down the campaign.

    I imagine the DM's original plan was for the bag to be dropped and for the PCs to spend a round to recover their equipment. Why none of the PCs bothered to do so is beyond me. Then the DM had a moment of Questionable Inspiration and used this new fact with a Plot Power to threaten the PCs.

    If your DM is wise, he will accept the counsel to either replace the missing PC equipment with acceptable gear (from the BBEG's armory, for example) or allow the PCs to quest for new gear. If the DM refuses, then you have the option to either stay in the game (meaning it was otherwise fun and the gear isn't that important) or quit (meaning that you've lost trust in the DM's judgment, or the gear really was that important).
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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Before the PHB2 even came out, I played a Bard (using the preview of it) from level 1 to 7. The DM was terrible about giving out magic items, so I never received a magic item for 7 levels. That is frustrating. Yes, I know that a +2 weapon only makes a 10% difference, but this DM was throwing encounters at us that I needed to roll an 18 (or sometimes even a 20) just to hit. That +2 would have possibly tripled my hit range. That's a lot.

    I was obviously becoming frustrated. Then, when I was about to hit level 8, he gives me a +5 amulet of something-another. It was basically a level 24 item. Amazingly, I was even more frustrated. I didn't want an epic level item at level 7, I wanted appropriate gear.

    My point? For me it is frustrating to have gear that is far too good or inadequate. Talking to my DM did not do any good (we talked to him about it several times). Eventually we just started getting him modules where they included loot -- and even that rarely worked, as he often would not hand it out anyway.

    Sometimes DM's just don't want the players to have loot then they overcompensate by giving out too much. Or they give out too much and overcompensate by taking it all away and underpowering the players. The best bet? Talk to him and try to get it straightened out, but don't try to cheat. Just be up front and honest. Let him know your feelings towards the game and encourage the other players to speak to him as well. If the game becomes unbearable, then the other option is to leave. But cheating? That just annoys the other players, too.
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by tcrudisi View Post
    Then, when I was about to hit level 8, he gives me a +5 amulet of something-another. It was basically a level 24 item. Amazingly, I was even more frustrated. I didn't want an epic level item at level 7, I wanted appropriate gear.
    What you could have done is Disenchant the +5 amulet to gain over 100,000 gp worth of residuum, and use that to Enchant about 40 level-appropriate items...
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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    What you could have done is Disenchant the +5 amulet to gain over 100,000 gp worth of residuum, and use that to Enchant about 40 level-appropriate items...
    It sounds like the DM would've found a reason to disallow that anyways.
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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Being a DM myself, I very rarely use DM Fiat. I never use it to take away items (that's what rust monsters and disenchanters are for). It does seem like you guys got hit by the "DM fiat" pimp-slap.
    But, then again, if I give you an item, you'll need it. Maybe not now, maybe not next week, but a situation will arise that will make you say, "CRAP!!! I wish I hadn't sold that Wand of Frost!!!"

    EDIT: That was an exact (read: cleaned) quote from one of my players after running into something that was weak against cold damage, at a pre-cone of cold caster level.
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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    What you could have done is Disenchant the +5 amulet to gain over 100,000 gp worth of residuum, and use that to Enchant about 40 level-appropriate items...
    Yeah, that crossed all of our minds, actually. The problem was his house-rule: if you want to have a magic item made, only one wizard can do it, and it takes 1 week per level of the item. Showing him that item creation had changed would not sway him; this was his preferred house-rule.

    Also, it was how he handed out items. Two of the other characters had artifacts. The Paladin had a +3 or +4 shield (my memory fails me)... yeah, it added an extra +3 or +4 to AC/Reflex. The DM was still definitely in 3.x mode.
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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    Three rounds later, the BBEG sees the bag on the floor full of weapons and threatens to planeshift the items unless the PCs back off. They charge him and the BBEG planeshifts the weapons away.
    The bag was on the ground for three full rounds and no one bothered to pick it up. The person you were attacking wasn't some random encounter troll, it was the BBEG, so the DM must play him smart. He uses the mistake your party made to buy himself some reprieve. The party attacks anyway. He carries out his threat. All of this, and its still the DM's fault?

    All the DM's magic item removal reasons aside, I'd say the DM was more than fair in giving your party plenty of opportunity to get your items back.

    On the issue of what to do next. I'd say that it bubbles down to one thing. Aside from the items thing, were you enjoying the campaign? Do you like the DM's style and the group dynamic? If so, then simply take it as a challenge to overcome. Not all challenges to the party will come in the form of CR+4 encounters. Some are political, some are intellectual, and some, like this one, are about playing with a handicap. You're playing a wizard right? You're probably the least magic item dependent out of the rest of your party. Capitalize on that.

    If you trust your DM, then let him know your concerns and then just play on, adapting as best you can to your situation.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by W3bDragon View Post
    The bag was on the ground for three full rounds and no one bothered to pick it up. The person you were attacking wasn't some random encounter troll, it was the BBEG, so the DM must play him smart. He uses the mistake your party made to buy himself some reprieve. The party attacks anyway. He carries out his threat. All of this, and its still the DM's fault?
    Apart from, well... houseruled in Plane Shift and Disjunction, neither of which exist in any way, shape, or form in 4e. Both of which are a evil in 3.x. Given to a BBEG at level 8.
    Yeah, that seems perfectly fine. Where can I get those on my wizard?

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Have you considered showing your GM the 'fixed enhancement bonuses' option in the DMG 2 and the Dark Sun Campaign Guide? If you use those, your magic items become more ways to do fancy stuff rather than things you desperately need to face CR-appropriate encounters.

    EDIT: Which reduces gear-dependence, which means shenanigans like this aren't such a big deal, being my point.
    Last edited by potatocubed; 2010-08-23 at 05:50 PM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    And as Wick said, why didn't the BBEG just escape with his "plane shift"?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Alright, I've calmed down a bit, so here's some more info:
    We're all lvl 15-17. The party agrees that we should try to get the stuff back...from the other plane...somehow. I hope he doesn't make this take too many battles. Whatever, that'll be up to the DM.
    I'll push for Planeshifting and disjunction, but I've never gotten npc spells before and I doubt he'll do it now. =\
    Last edited by HMS Invincible; 2010-08-23 at 08:46 PM.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    It sounds like you've got a couple of issues:

    1) A party used to getting their way. Setbacks are part of what make the game fun. Apparently, they felt so secure that they didn't feel the need to pick up their bag of loot or actually believe that the BBEG might really destroy it.
    2) A DM who didn't know how to handle the situation well - if there was an item issue, the DM should have talked about it to the players and found some way to deal with it.
    3) This is the biggie - there seems to be a real trust issue between the players and the DM. The players don't seem to trust that the DM will make the game fun in the long run (ie, give them level-appropriate gear or tailor the encounters to their gear-less state), and the DM doesn't trust that the players can maturely handle a reasonable request about getting too-powerful items under control.

    The lack of trust is most likely the biggest issue to deal with.

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    We're all lvl 15-17.
    At level 16, the game expects you to have a +3 enhancement bonus to attack, damage, and all defences. If you had +5 items then those items were overpowered, and may have been helping you to break your game.

    IMO you shouldn't try and get the items back. They were making you more powerful than you should have been, which is making the DM's job harder. What you do need, and quickly, is replacement items with the correct power level. Talk to your DM, without the aggro, and ask him to give you new more suitable items right away. You could also switch to the inherent bonus system.

    Personally, if I was DMing in a similar situation I would explain that the players' overpowered items were breaking the game, and remove and replace them "out of game". Breaks the immersion a little, but done in-game the removal of items would seem to overshadow the story.

    In-character, next time someone asks you to put your hard-earned and stupidly expensive magic items in a bag, kill him.
    Last edited by Excession; 2010-08-23 at 11:40 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Not Sure What to Say/Do 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    At level 16, the game expects you to have a +3 enhancement bonus to attack, damage, and all defences. If you had +5 items then those items were overpowered, and may have been helping you to break your game.

    IMO you shouldn't try and get the items back. They were making you more powerful than you should have been, which is making the DM's job harder. What you do need, and quickly, is replacement items with the correct power level. Talk to your DM, without the aggro, and ask him to give you new more suitable items right away. You could also switch to the inherent bonus system.

    Personally, if I was DMing in a similar situation I would explain that the players' overpowered items were breaking the game, and remove and replace them "out of game". Breaks the immersion a little, but done in-game the removal of items would seem to overshadow the story.

    In-character, next time someone asks you to put your hard-earned and stupidly expensive magic items in a bag, kill him.
    For a newly created character, you are correct. However, at lvl 17, the party receives one lvl 21 magic item as a parcel. It was an unidentified +5 Tome. In addition, I was not present, but the DM demanded my PC be there. Secondly, my PC could not participate in the battle, but had to disarm. So I was risking my PC for absolutely no reward other than half xp gain.

    A couple things don't add up, and the group has agreed to talk with the DM. If he wanted to remove OP items, the disjunction + dice fudging would have done it very well. In addition, if he wanted to remove OP items then I'm sure that we'll get new items quickly. However, if the DM was punishing us for not grabbing the bag of loot immediately; then the two of us will be languishing for a while.
    Lastly, I've been building a batman wizard by spending nearly all my gold on low level staffs, wands, and orbs. I guess the DM doesn't know how weapon heavy and gold lite I am. Nor do I know the DM's intentions other than to have fun and be challenged.

    There's nothing I can do until our next meeting.
    Last edited by HMS Invincible; 2010-08-24 at 01:37 AM.

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