help with an eldritch disciple (3.5)

[Ankhman]

after DMing our last campaign (shackled city) and the conclusion is in sight, i'm hoping to play again. i'm a fan of clerics and know many of the mechanics but the idea of the eldritch disciple fascinated me. i'm experimenting with some ideas but i'm aware that here lies much more knowledge then in my brain. and i think of flavor >>> power/cheese.
already used some googlefu and some threads in the WotC-forum.

starting is at level 1.
most probably there will be a 32 point buy and as with books - the corebooks and the complete series are available (without psionics).
str8 dex8 con12 int12 wis18 cha15
human NG cleric of lathander (strength and sun )(we're probably playing in FR) shifting to CG after lvl3

1 cleric 1 zen archery, extra turning
2 cleric 2
3 cleric 3 point blank shot
4 warlock 1 cha+1, eldritch spear, EB 1d6
5 eldritch disciple 1 see the unseen, healing blast
6 eldritch disciple 2 precise shot, EB 2d6
7 eldritch disciple 3 entropic warding
8 eldritch disciple 4 wis+1, EB 3d6, protective aura
9 eldritch disciple 5 empower spell-like, fell flight
10 eldritch disciple 6 EB 4d6
11 eldritch disciple 7 eldritch chain, damage reduction
12 eldritch disciple 8 practised spellcaster (cleric), wis+1, EB 5d6
13 eldritch disciple 9 flee the scene
14 eldritch disciple 10 EB 6d6, vitriolic blast, strength of will
15 ? ?feat?
16 ? wis+1
17 ?
18 ? ?feat?
19 ?
20 ? wis+1

i'd really like another doublecaster-class but i'm not aware,that there is one .. any suggestions? something i've missed?
also the number on warlock and clericlevel aren't firm ... but somehow given through my background (faithful cleric, who will discover some ancient tomes with rituals and knowledge to tap into the warlock powers ... )

[Yorrin]

Firstly, you can't qualify for the skill ranks without another level of something. I'd personally say Cleric. That way at the end of ED you're gonna be casting as a Cleric 13 and Warlock 11, with five levels to go. 11th level warlock gets you your one greater invocation, and that should be pretty sufficient, but it would be criminal to lose much more than one more divine caster level (missing out on 9th level spells!), so you're gonna want to progress that Cleric side.

[Asheram]

Firstly, you can't qualify for the skill ranks without another level of something. I'd personally say Cleric. That way at the end of ED you're gonna be casting as a Cleric 13 and Warlock 11, with five levels to go. 11th level warlock gets you your one greater invocation, and that should be pretty sufficient, but it would be criminal to lose much more than one more divine caster level (missing out on 9th level spells!), so you're gonna want to progress that Cleric side.

If the OP wants cheese, how about extending Eldritch disciple with some Legacy Champion Emmentaler?

[Yorrin]

If the OP wants cheese, how about extending Eldritch disciple with some Legacy Champion Emmentaler?

I was saving the cheese until after he had exhausted all other options and was getting desperate

[Asheram]

I was saving the cheese until after he had exhausted all other options and was getting desperate

Cheese for dessert? I've always preferred to start of with it as an entrée.
But I see the build and I wonder "Where's the divine metamagic"?

[Yorrin]

Cheese for dessert? I've always preferred to start of with it as an entrée.
But I see the build and I wonder "Where's the divine metamagic"?

You must not be a fan of cheesecake

But that's a great point. From an optimization standpoint you want to replace Empower Spell-Like with DMM: Persist. And assuming your DM listens to the errata, you'll need Empower and Persist metamagic feats to qualify for that. If you can take flaws, I'd pick them up there. If not, get rid of Extra Turning and push Practiced Caster back.

Of course if you need the Extra Turning to have enough Turning attempts for DMM:Persist then push back your PBS and Precise Shot...

[DarthCyberWolf]

My favorite eldritch disciple build is the eldritch glaive one.

Cleric 3/Warlock 1/Binder 1/Eldritch Disciple 10/Hellfire Warlock 3/??? 2. Use divine metamagic for persisted buffs including divine power for a nice full attack with a hellfire augmented eldritch glaive. Yum.

Edit: Though I just now realized it said only core and the complete series...

[Greenish]

Of course if you need the Extra Turning to have enough Turning attempts for DMM:Persist then push back your PBS and Precise Shot...

I would drop PBS and Precise Shot altogether. For the build, EB will be a filler, not the main point, due to being behind in already poor progression, and it's a touch attack with to-hit keyed to the stat a cleric will be focusing on heavily.

[Yorrin]

My favorite eldritch disciple build is the eldritch glaive one.

Cleric 3/Warlock 1/Binder 1/Eldritch Disciple 10/Hellfire Warlock 3/??? 2. Use divine metamagic for persisted buffs including divine power for a nice full attack with a hellfire augmented eldritch glaive. Yum.

That's a solid option, but it looks like he's going for a pseudo-archer build here. And there's something to be said for staying out of range.

I would drop PBS and Precise Shot altogether. For the build, EB will be a filler, not the main point, due to being behind in already poor progression, and it's a touch attack with to-hit keyed to the stat a cleric will be focusing on heavily.

While it's true that it's an afterthought, it still would be good to have those feats in the build somewhere, if a bit later. As I said above- it looks like he's going divine archer on us, and while not super-optimized I like the flavor he's got going with it.

[Greenish]

While it's true that it's an afterthought, it still would be good to have those feats in the build somewhere, if a bit later. As I said above- it looks like he's going divine archer on us, and while not super-optimized I like the flavor he's got going with it.

Yes, but with full BAB and wis-to-hit for touch attacks, burning two feats to avoid situational -4 penalty to hit seems wasteful, especially since it's the damage he should be worrying about. Was it Eldritch Disciple or the arcane/warlock one that got to add spells to EB?

[Yorrin]

Yes, but with full BAB and wis-to-hit for touch attacks, burning two feats to avoid situational -4 penalty to hit seems wasteful, especially since it's the damage he should be worrying about. Was it Eldritch Disciple or the arcane/warlock one that got to add spells to EB?

Eldrich Theurge.

But yeah, when you put it like that... avoiding a situational -4 on a touch attack seems a bit silly....

[Ankhman]

thanks for the suggestions so far ... but for some of the posters .. i said, that i like flavor over power/cheese. our campaigns are never for power and optimisation but for fun.

that char is intended to be a kind of divine archer warlock with the backing of his spells. perhabs i should had made that clearer, but i thought the base was obvious enough. binder is out of question as is hellfire .. see accepted books.
DMM persistend is banned because of broken cheese - this time my fault of not mentioning it. i'm aware of this option and it's not included in this build because of .. well .. banning.
no flaws allowed .. so no extra feats. the extra turning is for the uses of "gift of the divine patron".

as for the requirements - thanks .. adding a lvl of cleric over one of warlock would be okay .. so 4 of cleric first, then one warlock, then the disciple. then again cleric? the only option of strengthening the EB would be the warlock sceptre (okay with lathander as a light mace) and the chasuble of fell power?

with pbs and precise shoved back, what feats to take then? extra invocations? otherwise your're right with the situational .... and with zen archery i already got a nice bonus on the ranged touch. but there is almost always a tank in the party .. a fighter or barbarian, who runs into the crowd and gets pummeled. a missing healing blast from the back of the line would be desastrous ...

aunt edith thinks: as for extra invocations there would be two least (beguiling influence, otherworldly whispers), two lesser (voracious dispelling, walk unseen) and one greater (cone) that would fit with the flavor. or spell penetration for better piercing?

[Yorrin]

DMM persistend is banned because of broken cheese

Bummer

so 4 of cleric first, then one warlock, then the disciple. then again cleric? the only option of strengthening the EB would be the warlock sceptre (okay with lathander as a light mace) and the chasuble of fell power?

Yeah, that's the build you want. If you're focusing on EB then those two items are your best bet. Keep in mind, though, that by this point your blast will be 6d6. That's more than most archers of your level already, so don't feel too disappointed with it.

with pbs and precise shoved back, what feats to take then? extra invocations?

Knowledge Devotion is good, especially if you plan to take otherworldly whispers. Extra Invocations are rarely as useful as they sound. Honestly, though, you're best with stuff like metamagic.

as for extra invocations there would be two least (beguiling influence, otherworldly whispers), two lesser (voracious dispelling, walk unseen) and one greater (cone) that would fit with the flavor. or spell penetration for better piercing?

I notice that in your original list you've got eldrich chain. Drop it. I made the mistake of taking it the first time I was a Warlock and was sorely disappointed. You're better off with walk unseen, or charm, or witchwood step, or curse of despair, or voracious dispelling. You could also afford to replace eldrich spear with one of the options you suggested here, but I can see the benefits of having massive range on this build.

But as I said above, extra invocations are rarely worth it. I think you're working with a fine set that will serve you well.


I understand that you're playing a warlock-archer with Clerical flavor, but you're going to discover that your spells will be the most important part of the build. If nothing else you can buff your blasting ability through the roof, with proper spell selection. Remember that any spell which can affect your ranged attacks can also affect your EB. And you can keep massive defenses up at all times. While it's tempting to just run in blasting don't neglect your buffs.

I think you'll enjoy this character, though. And as you play him you'll start seeing other things you want to be able to do, and will be able to tailor your feats and spell selection to whatever that is.

[aeauseth]

I play a CloisteredCleric3/Warock1/Binder1/EldrichDisciple5. The DM allowed me to use a House Feat called "Practiced Invoker" which brings my effective warlock level (+4) to 10, so I do 5d6 damage.

My build is based around the Eldritch Glaive and DMM Persisted Defenses, but I can still give some insight as to how to play a Blaster (with Cleric flavor).

You will find that during battles you will use Eldritch Blast/Spear over & over again, only using spells when you can't get thru an enemy's Spell Resistance or to save a party member from death.

Most of your spells will be pre-fight buffs, between fight fixing, or utility spells.

It's just hard to beat the Eldritch Blast damage verses what your spell can do. If your party has a fabulous damage dealer then you might decide to buff them instead of attacking... Maybe. Your flamestrike might be better than your Eldritch Blast, but you probably will only have 1 of those. If you can afford a Circlet of Rapid Spellcasting (15,000gp) then you can do both (cast spell + Eldritch Blast).

I'd take Warlock at level 1 or level 2. Waiting until level 4 is just too long. Even a 1d6 eldritch blast with a ranged touch is likely to do more damage than your sling/crossbow or whatever.

I love my Gloves of Eldritch Admixture & Bracers of the Entangling Blast! I've considered buying a second set, but usually 3/day is enough.

The mortalbane feat (BoVD) adds 2d6 five/day. If your campaign is largely mortals, then something seriously consider.

Don't dismiss the Eldritch Glaive entirely. Once your BAB allows for 2 attacks you can combine this with Healing Blast and do some pretty serious healing. With my Eldritch Glaive + Healing Belt I rarely use a cure X wounds anymore.

I suspect Eldritch Chain won't be that useful, I've seen straight warlocks use it well, but you can probably use an AOE spell for the few times that eldritch chain might be effective. Depends on how often your DM throws lots of small creatures at you.

Precise Shot and any other feat that improves your ToHit is unnecessary. These are touch attacks. Most foes will have a touch AC of 10-13 (even at level 20). At level 6 your tohit will be around +5 so you hit on a 5 or more. Even if they are in melee (-4), you hit on a 9 or more. BTW: This is one reason why I took Eldritch Glaive, to avoid the -4 melee penalty.

Zen archery? Interesting concept. I see that you dumped your STR & DEX. This can be risky. First off a well placed Ray of Enfeeblement can one shot you (Third Eye Dampening can help). It is also a problem for you AC, leaving your to be reliant on your fell flight. Dungeons with low ceilings may be an issue. Consider lowering your CHA (only need for turns) and WIS (just a bit, say to 16) and bring your STR/DEX to at least a 10. I did a point buy at Str: 12 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 14 Cha: 14.

For the most part take buff invocations, avoid the ones that allow for a save, thus CHA isn't really that important. If you aren't taking any divine turning feats then you could consider dumping CHA, you still get 3 turns/day (probably enough).

Pay careful attention to your alignment and diety requirements for Eldritch Disciple, might limit your domain selections. Also your alignment limits your Gift of the Divine Patron (so much so that I might ask my DM for a waiver).

I'd also suggest using the alternate turning rules (Complete Divine I think) called Destroy Undead. This does damage to undead instead of making them run away. A Nightstick and Reliquary Holy Symbol will give you some extra turning, should you need it. I used my turns largely for DMM, but only 1 or 2 per day outside of DMM.

A Rod of extend metamagic + Luminous Armor (BoED) + Lesser Restoration + Monk's Belt can bring your AC into line with a Fighter's. Fell Flight (outdoors) is your best AC option.

I'm not aware of any other PrC that dual progresses for this build. Your likely going to have to pick a Cleric PrC. You can try to convince your DM to allow Mystic Thurge. I wonder if you could take 1 level of Wizard (or any arcane caster) to enter Mystic Thurge, then level up in Cleric/Warlock after that?

[Ankhman]

.oO(why nobody but yorrin is really reading my posts .. or at least the starting post ...?!)

so .. after much thought and your advices my char will be something like that (if nothing is changing).
starting is at level 1.
most probably there will be a 32 point buy and as with books - the corebooks (phb, mm1, dmg) and the complete series are available (without psionics).
str8 dex9 con12 int14 wis18 cha13
human NG cleric of lathander (strength and sun)(we're probably playing in FR - otherwise pelor) shifting to CG after lvl4

1 cleric 1 zen archery, extra turning
2 cleric 2
3 cleric 3 knowledge devotion (dungeoneering)
4 cleric 4 cha+1
5 warlock 1 entropic warding, EB 1d6
6 eldritch disciple 1 practised spellcaster (cleric), eldritch spear, healing blast
7 eldritch disciple 2 EB 2d6
8 eldritch disciple 3 wis+1, see the unseen
9 eldritch disciple 4 EB 3d6, protective aura
10 eldritch disciple 5 extra invocation: otherworldly whispers, fell flight
11 eldritch disciple 6 EB 4d6
12 eldritch disciple 7 empower spell-like, wis+1, walk unseen, damage reduction
13 eldritch disciple 8 EB 5d6
14 eldritch disciple 9 flee the scene
15 eldritch disciple 10 EB 6d6, timeless body, vitriolic blast, strength of will
16 radiant servant of lathander 1 wis+1, extra invocation: voracious dispelling, extra greater turning, radiance
17 rsol 2 divine health, empower healing
18 rsol 3 ?feat?, aura of warding
19 rsol 4
20 rsol 5 wis+1, bonus domain (glory or purification)

so casting will be cleric 18 (CL 20) and warlock 11.
still having one feat open at lvl 18
role: hovering in the back, sniping with EB and buffing with his spells before a combat. living band aid.

interesting .. i'd never given much thought to the complete champion. dropping con to 10 and raising int to 14 .. with knowledge devotion i need al the skillpoints i can get. plus i don't intend to stand in the frontline anyway, there are at least always 3 other targets that can catch the fireball (our partysize is usually 4 - 6).
i will ask about the homebrew "practised invoker" for raising the damage, but i'll doubt it.
perhabs i can talk my DM into allowing the nifty little magic item that allows for an extra invocation (8000gp) from the ravenloft setting.
is voracios dispelling at lvl 16 that useful?

and thanks for aeauseth, but ..
circlet, bracers, gloves and healing belt are from MIC, so not available.
cleric first levels is preferred because of the backstory of my char.
mortal bane - besides that it is vom BoVD - does not fit into the char (and my view as a good cleric of lathander).
eldritch glaive is still out of question - see allowed books.
ray of enfeeblement can't bring me below 1, so i always have the chance to dispel the effect.
lowering cha is a good point. with cha 13 i can raise con to 12 to give a little cussion of HP. and with extra turning i still have 8 attempts after lvl4 for the gift-uses (and 13 after lvl15). and with the lack of skillpoints i better leave the role of the partyface to the bard and concentrate on knowledge, concentration, a bit healing and spellcraft.
how should mystic theurge work?! first it needs 2nd lvl arcane spells, so 3 lvls in sorc or wizard. second it improves divine and arcane spellcasting ... not the invoker level. :\
and for DMM i have not enough free feats. besides the persistent-cheese is banned as already mentioned.
good idea with the cleric PrC .. never thought of that, but neat ... strange as i had already played two of them ^^. hello, mister radiant servant ^^

PS: the luminous spells from BoED are the only things i would really like to have because of the flavor ... but neither is the book allowed nor i'm a sanctified ..

[aeauseth]

how should mystic theurge work?! first it needs 2nd lvl arcane spells, so 3 lvls in sorc or wizard. second it improves divine and arcane spellcasting ... not the invoker level.

You might try getting a DM waiver to let 2nd level invocations qualify in place of 2nd level arcane spells. I might try the same with my DM. My basic argument will be that when the DMG was written there was no such thing as a warlock or invoking class. I believe the Warlock is considered an arcane caster, so if you can get into Mystic Theurge you should be able to advance in Cleric & Warlock just fine.

As to not reading your original post, I did. I wasn't trying to talk you into going the DMM route, I was just using it to contrast with my PC. As for the other sources, your OP gave expected point buy and book sources but you weren't certain at the time. You also mentioned you liked the "chasuble of fell power" which is in the MIC. Regargless you picked out a few tidbits you found interesting, maybe other readers will find something else useful.

[Ankhman]

chasuble of fell power is in the complete arcane too ..
and the first sentence wasn't especially for you, no hard feelings!