[3.5] DMing Tomb of Horrors

[MachineWraith]

I'm going to be DMing the Tomb of Horrors fairly soon, and I wanted to ask for advice from the Playground.

There are going to be five players for sure, and possibly a sixth. They'll be starting at level nine like the book suggests, with standard WBL. All 3.5 books are available, with the caveat that I must look over and approve everyone's characters before play. I don't expect much cheese from this group, as most aren't much for optimizing, and those that are usually do so more as a thought exercise in their spare time.

Is there anything I should know going into the game that the book doesn't tell me? With possibly six players, will I need to ramp up any of the encounters?

I've DMed several campaigns before, but they were all very open, sandbox-style games. I'm pretty good at thinking on my feet, and in my campaigns would freely alter encounters on the fly. My players were informed that I'd be doing this, and had no complaints, before or after.

However, for this adventure, I'd like to keep to hard numbers as much as possible. I'm fine with changing the adventure from what's in the book beforehand, but I want to stick to what I have planned as much as possible during play.

Thoughts?

[Tyndmyr]

I'm going to be DMing the Tomb of Horrors fairly soon, and I wanted to ask for advice from the Playground.

There are going to be five players for sure, and possibly a sixth. They'll be starting at level nine like the book suggests, with standard WBL. All 3.5 books are available, with the caveat that I must look over and approve everyone's characters before play. I don't expect much cheese from this group, as most aren't much for optimizing, and those that are usually do so more as a thought exercise in their spare time.

I wouldn't worry about optimization. If they have played ToH before, they know what to expect. If they haven't, it probably won't help.

Is there anything I should know going into the game that the book doesn't tell me? With possibly six players, will I need to ramp up any of the encounters?

No. Heh, heh, no.

Having pen and paper is useful for notes if the party gets split up and such. It's not unlikely. It's ever so much fun keeping them all in the dark.

I've DMed several campaigns before, but they were all very open, sandbox-style games. I'm pretty good at thinking on my feet, and in my campaigns would freely alter encounters on the fly. My players were informed that I'd be doing this, and had no complaints, before or after.

However, for this adventure, I'd like to keep to hard numbers as much as possible. I'm fine with changing the adventure from what's in the book beforehand, but I want to stick to what I have planned as much as possible during play.

Thoughts?

Be sure to emphasize beforehand that people will end up dead. That's sort of what it's designed to do. It's important to set expectations beforehand.

The dungeon doesn't usually require a lot of improv anyhow, so that should work out nicely. Keep in mind that this dungeon is much less about encounters than traps and such. Be careful not skim on describing details, as some involve clues.

[Vangor]

The dungeon in 3.5 is far removed from the original nightmare of traps without saves or little hope of saves. As long as the group has a few full casters, dungeon-useful skills, and a basic level of optimization, the tomb should be overcome with a few difficulties.

[Tyndmyr]

I wouldn't say that.

**spoilers ahead**

There are still completely lethal traps with no saves, including the classic one in the initial hallway. For appropriately leveled characters, the damage dealt by most of the traps there results in death frequently. Optimization isn't what saves you...paranoia is what saves you. It's not a hard dungeon if you as a player are used to sadistic dungeon diving. It's fairly hard if you view dungeons as convenient receptacles for monsters and loot.

You also have an easy way of disposing of the demilich removed from 3.5.

I wish more dungeons were designed like it.

[MachineWraith]

I wouldn't worry about optimization. If they have played ToH before, they know what to expect. If they haven't, it probably won't help.

They haven't, so that'll be fun.

Be sure to emphasize beforehand that people will end up dead. That's sort of what it's designed to do. It's important to set expectations beforehand.

I have. I have a tendency to run fairly high-mortality campaigns, and I've told them to expect to die. Two of them are planning on making 3 characters, so that when one character dies they can just pick up the next.

[Shadowbane]

Tomb of Horrors is simple if you have a cleric who has a hatred of celestial monkeys.

[MachineWraith]

Maybe so, but I doubt my players will do that. Given their history, I expect them to stay "in the spirit of the game".

[huttj509]

They haven't, so that'll be fun.





I have. I have a tendency to run fairly high-mortality campaigns, and I've told them to expect to die. Two of them are planning on making 3 characters, so that when one character dies they can just pick up the next.

Just checking, but how you notify them can be key (though the 3 characters thing implies to me it was appropriately conveyed).

For example, there's a difference between:

"This is a dangerous dungeon and you will likely have character death"

and

"This dungeon is based on an old tournament module, where sheer survival was an accomplishment. Many have succumbed to the perils, and many facets of the dungeon have gone down in gamer history in terms of their sheer danger, and at times straight out unfairness. Through thought, skill, and a little bit of luck, you may survive. Maybe."

*spoiler*

Spoiler

Show

Heck, isn't the main entrance a possible origin of the classic "rocks fall, everyone dies" bit? Though in the 3.5 version I think it's toned down to "rocks fall, hope you roll well".

Edit: Does the 3.5 inclusion of Search and Disable Device make the traps near jokes if a rogue's around, or did they manage to avoid that somehow?

[MachineWraith]

How I notified them: "I've looked through the module. Plan on dying. If you don't play smart, plan on dying a lot."

[huttj509]

How I notified them: "I've looked through the module. Plan on dying. If you don't play smart, plan on dying a lot."

That works :-)

I guess one of the things that bugged me was so many folks know it as a killer dungeon, but forget that in its original incarnation it was specifically supposed to be so as a tournament module, and not meant to be interjected into a normal campaign willy nilly. Don't think it was an issue here, but I've seen other posts where it was.

[Badgerish]

work out in advance what happens if (when?) characters die and don't get raised/resurrected/reincarnated

Do you only have your starting characters, and death is death. When you are all dead, it's game over and you do something else?
Is there a fixed list of reinforcements available, so dead characters can be replaced?
Is there a support-organisation outside to provide raise-dead and open-ended reinforcements?

[Tyndmyr]

Edit: Does the 3.5 inclusion of Search and Disable Device make the traps near jokes if a rogue's around, or did they manage to avoid that somehow?

If you can hit a DC 50 reliably, then yes. There are, however, a few traps that cannot be disabled. There are plenty more that rely on searching the right thing. Everyone searches the floor. Those traps are supposed to be relatively easy. It's the other stuff that kills you.

[Serenity]

Also remember: just because it's not trapped, doesn't mean it's not filled with snakes!

[Diarmuid]

I know you said they're only 9th level, but in case they try to be fancy with scrolls or wands, make sure you ban Find the Path.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just fyi, I did come up with a thread that talks about the sorts of things PC's can do for this module:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163734

The useful, helpful replies start at about post 18 or so! But by that point the thread is quite interesting! :)

[Morithias]

If you really, really, REALLY want to be a **** about it. Swap out one of the archlich's feats (like iron will or what not) for Landlord (Stronghold builders).

800,000 extra gold to work with, and you buy everything for half price? You could probably make the tomb literally unbeatable with the money.

That's what my group is doing soon, my one friend is going to run the standard tomb, then I'm going to be the jerk Dm who runs the "Tomb of Hor". You die before you even say the name! XD

[MachineWraith]

Ha! That would be cruel.

I think I'm gonna start 'em off with the standard one, though. From the sounds of it, that will be nasty enough. Besides, my friend already wants to run the 4e ToH after mine's done. I think that will be enough horrifying tombs for everyone.

[Esser-Z]

Is the 3.5 Tomb high enough level for the Summon Elemental reserve feat? If so, it's pretty much blown wide open. Traps are no good against infinite scouting capacity.

[Tyrmatt]

Also remember: just because it's not trapped, doesn't mean it's not filled with snakes!

Or bears. That are on fire.

@Machinewraith: Let us know how the Tomb of Horrors 4E goes will you? I'm considering running it as a joke for my friends who really dislike high-fantasy stuff. What I've read so far seems like its been toned down quite a bit by default.

[Jack_Simth]

Is the 3.5 Tomb high enough level for the Summon Elemental reserve feat? If so, it's pretty much blown wide open. Traps are no good against infinite scouting capacity.

9th, yes. I keep getting mentions.

And the method is actually doable Core, due to the 3.5 Tomb permitting you to rest up whenever. A Wizard-3 could take out all the traps in the Tomb in that manner (although that pesky drowning one would be annoying, and you'll need a necklace of adaptation or some such for that).