3.5 dervish

[heymejack]

why doesn't anyone seem to think dervish is any good? full attack on the move? double full attack at 10th level? scimitars as light weapons + improved critical? with fighter, or rogue for sneak attack? seems awesome to me.

[Snake-Aes]

"scimitars as light weapons for TWF purposes" is a very small bonus actually. Kukris can achieve the same effect as scimitars for 1d4 dice instead of 1d6.
depending on light armor kinda screws it over for full heavy armored builds, and the loss of sneak attack doesn't pay off in the double full attack. It's a reasonable class, but far from a powerful one. Excellent for gestalt.

[Boci]

In addition to what Snake-Aes said: Requires some subpar feats to gain access too, for a fighting style that is very feat intensive. Light weapons means no power attack bonus. Move and full attack come with some annoying limitations, capstone requires there to be multiple enemies edit:to work reliably and can only be used once per day.

[Snake-Aes]

In addition to what Snake-Aes said: Requires some subpar feats to gain access too, for a fighting style that is very feat intensive. Light weapons means no power attack bonus. Move and full attack come with some annoying limitations, capstone requires there to be multiple enemies and can only be used once per day.

You can use the capstone on a single enemy if you can circle him or you can move enough to walk around the previous squares without losing your round's movement to allow a full attack. Not really gonna happen in tight spaces, especially against medium- enemies.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Someone thought it was good enough to warrant it's own handbook

In addition to that I have seen it used extremely well in a TWF swift hunter build

[Boci]

Someone thought it was good enough to warrant it's own handbook

In addition to that I have seen it used extremely well in a TWF swift hunter build

Its not a weak PrC, its just not as good as it appears at first glance. A swifthunter dervist has the problem of not progressing skirmish or FA for example.

[Greenish]

The only major attraction of the class is the dance, which can only be used a limited number of times a day, only once per encounter, and leaves you fatigued afterwards.

The ten levels are worse than a single level dip in spirit lion totem barbarian, and you'll need two poor feats to enter. No dice.

[Snake-Aes]

It's not a weak class, but if you aren't playing in your preferred field (something on the lines of The Bride vs the Crazy 88), it won't be doing its full potential, and even that potential, sadly, is somewhat behind many popular builds.

My last Long campaign had a samurai (gestalt incarnate/dervish and warblade) who was basically the god of clearing the field. And crossing oceans on foot.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I know it is not a good class per se, but nor it is a bad class, your previous responses kinda infered the latter.

I may have misunderstood you and I am actually biased towards Dervish cause I like the class so much, sorry if my post was rude or dismisive.

[Snake-Aes]

It is made of awesome. Sadly, its awesome is akin to that of a monk. It just doesn't work well with anything that we usually stack to be effective in melee. Beats a monk tho.

[Vangor]

For entry, the feats range from avoided to just basic, four of them. Mediocre feats can hurt melees pretty badly, with those four requiring most classes to be a human and expend every feat (ignoring flaws and taint) they have which leaves them without power attack or similar.

As for the main dance, I am not sure why this has a limit, an extremely low limit, of times per day considering the movement requirements and AoO generated for what is a +1-5 bonus to hit and damage. Plus, the duration requiring Perform: Dance, which few of those entering will have as a class skill, with no minimum just hurts, especially until level 9 due to fatigue.

Add to this the losing power attack for scimitars in offhand, and I just feel as though the class is not well designed.

[Greenish]

It is made of awesome. Sadly, its awesome is akin to that of a monk. It just doesn't work well with anything that we usually stack to be effective in melee. Beats a monk tho.

Hmm, if I was banned from using ToB, MoI or psionics and told to make a melee, I'd probably make a mix of ranger, barbarian, fighter, Revenant Blade, Dervish and Shadowdancer. Maybe monk dip for some skills and feats. Perhaps rogue for Craven.

HiPS, Pounce (with the appropriate charger feat), dance to finish 'em off.

[Edit]:

Add to this the losing power attack for scimitars in offhand, and I just feel as though the class is not well designed.

You'll also lose PA from scimitar in your main hand. They explicitly treat scimitars as light weapons for all purposes.

[Eldariel]

It is made of awesome. Sadly, its awesome is akin to that of a monk. It just doesn't work well with anything that we usually stack to be effective in melee. Beats a monk tho.

It's definitely a fine class; just needs a ToB update. It was on the top of the heap that came out of CWar; it's just since been supplanted by more efficient options by and large. It's worth noting though that other non-ToB melee still has trouble full attacking as reliably as Dervish.

Travel Devotion is really the only means and that's equally limited on times per day; Pounce requires charge which isn't nearly as automatically available as movement, and Dervish Dance also ensures you'll get away so as to avoid the respective counter full attack. Also, it has Elaborate Parry without actually having the shell suck and takes 10 on Tumble-checks, both of which have nice uses; Dervish quickly gets to 10' steps and can actually make use out of defensive fighting with solid -4/+8 returns.


So it's not bad, it's just not the best at what it does either. Its prerequisites really keep it down; you need like 16 feats to actually get to the worthwhile feats they all enable and work them into a Dervish-shell. I once did such a build but it took like Monk+Psy War+Fighter+Martial Rogue and some ACFs. For the record, the worthwhile feats were Melee Weapon Mastery (WF), Knock-Down (Combat Expertise) & Elusive Target (Dodge/Mobility) respectively. I also needed to fit Combat Reflexes-tree with the usual suspectssince it goes so well with high Dex typical for a Dervish, and it's necessary to make Knock-Down really work out. And then you'd want synergistic class features (Revenant Blade Dervish is incredible for example; two-weapon two-handed power attack with class-based +5 to hit?!)

[Vangor]

[Edit]: You'll also lose PA from scimitar in your main hand. They explicitly treat scimitars as light weapons for all purposes.

Hrmm, I swore the feature specified offhand, but you're correct, which is simply worse on an already meh class.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Would you mind posting that build Eldariel? it seems interesting

[Eldariel]

What I actually statted out was a simple level 16 Fighter 4/Monk 2/Dervish 10 with feats:


ECL 1 - Cobra Strike Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...tm#cobraStrike) 1: Dodge (Bonus), Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike (Bonus), Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes (Flaw), Two-Weapon Fighting (Flaw)
ECL 2 - Cobra Strike Monk 2: Mobility (Bonus)
ECL 3 - Fighter (Exoticist) 1: Pick Dwarven War Axe as one of your 4 Exotic Weapons, Power Attack (Bonus), Improved Trip
ECL 4 - Fighter 2: Weapon Focus: Dwarven War Axe (Bonus)
ECL 5 - Fighter 3:
ECL 6 - Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization: Dwarven War Axe (Bonus), Knock-Down
ECL 7 - Dervish 1:
ECL 8 - Dervish 2:
ECL 9 - Dervish 3: Spring Attack (Bonus), Melee Weapon Mastery
ECL 10 - Dervish 4:
ECL 11 - Dervish 5:
ECL 12 - Dervish 6: Elusive Target
ECL 13 - Dervish 7:
ECL 14 - Dervish 8:
ECL 15 - Dervish 9: Robilar's Gambit
ECL 16 - Dervish 10:


Sources:
Cobra Strike Monk ACF: Unearthed Arcana/SRD
Exoticist Fighter ACF: Dragon #310/Crystalkeep (http://www.crystalkeep.com)
Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting: Complete Adventurer
Melee Weapon Mastery: Player's Handbook II
Knock-Down: SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/div....htm#knockDown)
Elusive Target: Complete Warrior
Robilar's Gambit: Player's Handbook II


Note that as you might see, the character in question dualwielded Dwarven Waraxes; Exoticist is otherwise strictly optional. Also, it had HD and LA, but that's besides the point. Anyways, that's the husk; it lacks Mage Slayer & Double Hit from its final guide (it was a low-magic world) but all the logical lead-ins and developments are there. Obviously standard version could just use Scimitars and pick up Deadly Defense or so. But with Trips, Str-focus, wielding one-handed weapons and all that, Power Attack seemed obvious.

[Boci]

Why oversizes two weapon fighting and power attack? You get the benefit of the former from the class, and the ability disallows PA. Did I miss something?

[Darastin]

Why oversizes two weapon fighting and power attack? You get the benefit of the former from the class, and the ability disallows PA. Did I miss something?

Yes, you did. The charakter in question doesn't use scimitars.

While Dervishes get more out of TWF than other classes without sneak attack, it's still better if you wield something that can use Power Attack. So you either go the Oversized TWF route (expensive, but stylish) or the much more effective two-handed weapon route.

Two-handed weapons get a little less from the Dervish Dance damage bonus, but they require a lot less feats and - most important - require less movement, thus increasing your effective striking and retreat distance.

BTW, it usually pays to include a level of Barbarian in a Dervish build. Its untyped movement bonus stacks with the Dervish's enhancement bonus to movement, and a TWF Dervish will need every inch of it.

Just my two €-cents;
Darastin

[Boci]

Yes, you did. The charakter in question doesn't use scimitars.
Darastin

Facepalm. Serves me right for posting in the morning before a cup of tea.

[Master_Rahl22]

I'm currently playing a Warblade 10/ Dervish 10. Sudden Leap for extra mobility, X Mongoose, Punishing Stance or Blood in the Water for damage, and at high level Thousand Cuts + Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip + X Mongoose for OMGWTFBBQ attacks. Throw in Imp. Crit or Keen on your scimitars and you're doing crazy damage against anything not immune to crits. It's insanely feat intensive for the prereqs and the TWF feats, and I only pulled it off due to being human and having 2 flaws, but it's also a really fun build. I have nifty maneuvers, I'm fairly dextrous and intelligent, and several times a day I can become a whirling buzzsaw of death.

[gallagher]

I'm currently playing a Warblade 10/ Dervish 10. Sudden Leap for extra mobility, X Mongoose, Punishing Stance or Blood in the Water for damage, and at high level Thousand Cuts + Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip + X Mongoose for OMGWTFBBQ attacks. Throw in Imp. Crit or Keen on your scimitars and you're doing crazy damage against anything not immune to crits. It's insanely feat intensive for the prereqs and the TWF feats, and I only pulled it off due to being human and having 2 flaws, but it's also a really fun build. I have nifty maneuvers, I'm fairly dextrous and intelligent, and several times a day I can become a whirling buzzsaw of death.

now, how would this work as a crusader? i can see all the self-healing and white raven shinanigans would make this quite...interesting

[Greenish]

now, how would this work as a crusader? i can see all the self-healing and white raven shinanigans would make this quite...interesting

The only healing maneuver that would work with the dance is Martial Spirit stance, where you can heal an ally for 2 hp every time you hit someone.

As for White Raven, you could render a bunch of enemies unable to AoO for 3 rounds with Covering Strike. No other interaction.

[Master_Rahl22]

Yeah, Iron Heart and Tiger Claw are pretty important to the concept, so Warblade is a better fit. Also I love Diamond Mind, so even though it doesn't contribute much to this particular concept I still have Emerald Razor and Moment of Perfect Mind. Oh, and I should've said that we started at level 6 and are currently level 9, so I'm actually playing a Warblade 6/Dervish 3 with plans to make him 10 and 10. He's very playable, as most of the time he's a TWF fighter with some nifty tricks (maneuvers) and when I can tell it will be a tough fight he pulls out his blender imitation.

[Crasical]

Hmmm.

Going for swashbuckler -> Dervish seems interesting, and you can fluff your Scimitar as a cutlass. You need to wait 6 levels to get cross class perform-dance.... which is just enough to get the proper number of feats, too. But, then you don't have any feats left to buy TWF with. And level 5 Swashbuckler's not that great, so you should take a level of.. barbarian?

[Eldariel]

Hmmm.

Going for swashbuckler -> Dervish seems interesting, and you can fluff your Scimitar as a cutlass. You need to wait 6 levels to get cross class perform-dance.... which is just enough to get the proper number of feats, too. But, then you don't have any feats left to buy TWF with. And level 5 Swashbuckler's not that great, so you should take a level of.. barbarian?

The standard entry is Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2. Gets all the relevant stuff from Swash and Fighter feats.