[3.5]Improved monster classes(2.0):adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

[dragonsamurai77]

flight doesn't follow the correct rules, You shouldn't get wing attacks until level 4, bite attacks don't get 1 and a half strength mod, too many dead levels (you need to put the attributes in too.) DR doesn't work that way in this thread (It's half full hitdice on dragons), spellcasting is incorrect, alternate form is 1/day per HD and you don't get frightful presence until huge size.

Would you mind elaborating on some of these? (What are the rules for flight and spellcasting?) Also, I thought wings that were Medium and above could attack, and the dragon starts at Medium, so...

[Mystic Muse]

Would you mind elaborating on some of these? (What are the rules for flight and spellcasting?) Also, I thought wings that were Medium and above could attack, and the dragon starts at Medium, so...

sure

1. Flight is equal to your hit dice times ten.
2. Nope. Wings come in at fourth level. They can attack then and fly then. At least in this thread.
3. SR comes at level 11 and is equal to hit dice+11 and DR/magic comes in at 12 and is equal to half your full hit dice.
4.A dragon receives spells known and spells per day as a bard of same level, but he casts as a sorceror and takes his spells known from the sorceror/wizard spell list.

[dragonsamurai77]

Better now?

[Mystic Muse]

Better now?

Spellcasting still needs to be fixed to this.

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Arcane Blood:A red dragon receives spells known and spells per day as a bard of same level, but he casts as a sorceror and takes his spells known from the sorceror/wizard spell list.

If it multiclasses as a bard it's spellcasting increases as a bard.
If it multiclasses as a sorceror it counts as already having sorceror casting depending on it's dragon level, as shown on the following table.

{table]Dragon level | Virtual sorceror casting
1|-
2|1
3|2
4|3
5|4
6|5
7|6
8|6
9|7
10|8
11|8
12|9
13|10
14|10
15|11
16|12
17|12
18|13
19|13
20|13
[/table]

So for example a dragon 2 who takes a level of sorceror would count as already having 1 level of sorceror and gains the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorceror gains when leveling from level 1 to 2, but not the spell slots and spell knowns from the 1st level of sorceror. He would get the familiar ability, but dragon levels wouldn't count for it.

A dragon 18 who takes a level of sorceror would count as having 14 levels of sorceror(13+1) and gain the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorceror gains when leveling from level 13 to 14, but not the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorceror gets from level 1 to 13, He would get the familiar ability, but dragon levels wouldn't count for it.

His Caster level remains equal to his full HD when multiclassing to sorceror.

If a dragon takes a casting prc, it may choose to advance his casting as that of a sorceror. So a dragon 10/loremaster 10 would cast as a 18th level sorceror (he would still receive spell slots and spells knowns from a bard 10 from the first 10 dragon levels and then the spell slots and spell knowns from a sorceror 11-18 for the loremaster levels)

DR comes in at level 12 but is only equal to half full hitdice. Not 12 plus half Hitdice. Sorry if I wasn't very clear on that.

alternate form, wings, SR, and DR all say they're equal to a "level" but they should say hit dice. They're supposed to advance even after you get into a different class.


I may notice other things later. I'm kind of tired.

[Grytorm]

The Deathdrinker and the Marraenoloth when they multiclass as spell casters they have special rules. I don't really understand it. Could someone explain?

[Gorgondantess]

The Deathdrinker and the Marraenoloth when they multiclass as spell casters they have special rules. I don't really understand it. Could someone explain?

Well, examples are given... though it's pretty complex. In simple, say you have 3 marraenoloth levels, and you take a level of sorcerer. What happens is you get, in terms of spellcasting, what you would've gotten leveling up from 3 to 4- a level 2 spell known, a few level 2 spells per day, and I think a cantrip, but no level 1 spells known. Honestly, it's not vital to know- it just gives you options for multiclassing out.

[Makiru]

anyone want to do a rukanyr (fiend folio, if i remember right)?

I'll take a crack at this, since I happen to really like the rukanyr. It would be my first time doing one of these, but I'll give it my best.

[Grytorm]

Well, examples are given... though it's pretty complex. In simple, say you have 3 marraenoloth levels, and you take a level of sorcerer. What happens is you get, in terms of spellcasting, what you would've gotten leveling up from 3 to 4- a level 2 spell known, a few level 2 spells per day, and I think a cantrip, but no level 1 spells known. Honestly, it's not vital to know- it just gives you options for multiclassing out.

Cool, but a bit weird. If I am not mistaken you can get cantrips, 1st level spells and 6th level spells by taking a level of wizard after your tenth marraenoloth level. I may be wrong though.

[*.*.*.*]

Anyone mind doing the Frostwind Virago?

[Gorgondantess]

Bronze dragon:

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HD:d12
{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
1 | +1 | +2|+0 |+2 |Bronze Dragon body, Arcane blood
2| +2| +3|+0 |+3 | Keen senses, Lightning Breath
3| +3| +3|+1| +3| Blindsense, Repulsion Breath, +1 Cha
4| +4| +4| +1|+4 | Wings, +1 Str
5| +5| +4| +1| +4| Float Like a Dragon, Swim Like a Fish, +1 Cha, +1 Con
6| +6| +5|+2 |+5 | Speak With Animals, +1 Str
7| +7| +5| +2| +5| Alternate Form, +1 Cha
8| +8| +6| +2| +5| Growth, Tail Slap, +1 Str, +1 Con
9| +9| +6|+3 |+6|Create Food & Water, +1 Cha
10| +10| +7|+3 |+7 | Detect Thoughts, +1 Str
11| +11| +7| +3|+7 | Arcane Skin, +1 Cha, +1 Con
12| +12| +8| +4|+8 | Iron Scales, +1 Str
13| +13| +8| +4| +8| Fog Cloud, +1 Cha
14| +14| +9| +4| +9| Frightful presence, +1 Str, +1 Con
15| +15| +9| +5| +9| Growth, Crush, +1 Cha,
16| +16| +10| +5| +10| Cloying Breath, +1 Str
17| +17| +10| +5|+10 | Control Water, +1 Cha, +1 Con
18| +18| +11|+6 |+11 | Master of the Oceans, +1 Str
19 | +19| +11| +6| +11| Irresistible Breath, +1 Cha
20| +20| +12| +6| +12| Control Weather, +1 Cha, +1 Con, +1 Str

[/TABLE]
4 Skill points+int per level, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills: Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Spot, Survival, Swim.

Proficiencies: A Bronze Dragon isn't proficient with any armor or weapons, besides its own natural weapons.


Features:
Bronze Dragon Body: The blue dragon loses all other racial bonuses gaining Dragon traits (including darkvision 60' and immunity to paralysis & sleep), as well as the water subtype (granting water breathing and a 30' swim speed) with one bite as a primary natural attack dealing 1d8+str, as well as 2 claws as secondary natural attacks dealing 1d6+1/2 str damage each, 40' base speed, medium size. The bronze dragon has wings, but they're too weak to do anything for now. His claws are capable of fine manipulation and can be used for somatic components of spellcasting or anything else a human hand could do.

The bronze dragon also gets a natural armor bonus equal to his Con modifier. Whenever the bronze dragon grows one size category, his natural armor increases by a further 1.

The bronze dragon is immune to electrecity. It has no particular vulnerability.


Arcane Blood:A bronze dragon receives spells known and spells per day as a bard of same level, but he casts as a sorceror and takes his spells known from the sorceror/wizard spell list.


If it multiclasses as a bard it's spellcasting increases as a bard.
If it multiclasses as a sorceror it counts as already having sorceror casting depending on it's dragon level, as shown on the following table.

{table]Dragon level | Virtual sorceror casting
1|-
2|1
3|2
4|3
5|4
6|5
7|6
8|6
9|7
10|8
11|8
12|9
13|10
14|10
15|11
16|12
17|12
18|13
19|13
20|13
[/table]

So for example a dragon 2 who takes a level of sorceror would count as already having 1 level of sorceror and gains the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorceror gains when leveling from level 1 to 2, but not the spell slots and spell knowns from the 1st level of sorceror. He would get the familiar ability, but dragon levels wouldn't count for it.

A dragon 18 who takes a level of sorceror would count as having 14 levels of sorceror(13+1) and gain the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorceror gains when leveling from level 13 to 14, but not the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorceror gets from level 1 to 13. He would get the familiar ability, but dragon levels wouldn't count for it.

His Caster level remains equal to his full HD when multiclassing to sorceror.

If a dragon takes a casting prc, it may choose to advance his casting as that of a sorceror. So a dragon 10/loremaster 10 would cast as a 18th level sorceror (he would still receive spell slots and spells knowns from a bard 10 from the first 10 dragon levels and then the spell slots and spell knowns from a sorceror 11-18 for the loremaster levels)


Keen senses: At 2nd level, the bronze dragon sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet.

Lightning Breath: As a standard action no more than once every 1d4 rounds, the Bronze dragon may breathe out a line of lightning out to 60', plus 10' per class level. It deals 1d6 damage/HD, with a reflex save (10+1/2 HD+Con Mod) for half.

Blindsense: As the ability, out to 10' plus 10' per 2 HD.

Repulsion Breath: Instead of the line of lightning the Bronze dragon may breath out a cone of repulsion gas out to 30', plus 5' per class level. Those caught in the blast must make a will save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Cha Mod) or be forced to do nothing but move away from the dragon for 1d6 rounds. This increases to 2d6 rounds at level 6 and by another 1d6 every 3 levels thereafter, up to 6d6 at level 18. This is a mind affecting compulsion effect.

Ability score increase: The Bronze dragon gains +1 Cha at every odd level but one and at 20, +1 Str every even level but 2, and +1 Con at 5th level and every 3 levels thereafter, to a total of +10 Cha, +9 Str, and +6 Con.


Wings:At level 4 the Bronze dragon becomes able to fly with a speed of 10' per HD, with poor maneuverability. The maneuverability doesn't increase naturally, but players can take the Savage Species feat that increases it by two steps(stackable). Each wing can also be now used to deliver a secondary natural attack dealing 1d4+1/2 str damage.

Float Like a Dragon, Swim Like a Fish: At 5th level, the Bronze Dragon gains a +5' bonus to its swim speed for every 2 HD it has. It can cast spells, use either of its breath weapons, and attack without penalty underwater.

Speak With Animals: Starting at 6th level: as an SLA, once per day/HD.

Alternate Form (Su): Starting at 7th level, a Bronze dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action 1/day for every 3 HD it has. The dragon can remain in its animal or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.


Growth:At 8th level the Bronze dragon grows to large size.
At 15th level the Bronze dragon grows to huge size.

His AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills change acordingly, but he doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties.


Tail slap:The Bronze dragon can now make a tail slap attack dealing 1d8+1.5 str damage(already taking in acount large size). This is a natural secondary attack.

Create Food & Water: Starting at 9th level: as an SLA, once per day/3 HD.

Detect Thoughts: Starting at 10th level: as an SLA, once per day/3 HD.


Arcane skin: Starting at 11th level, the Bronze dragon gains SR equal to his HD+11.

Iron Scales: Starting at 12th level, the Bronze dragon gains DR/magic equal to half his HD.

Fog Cloud: Starting at 13th level: as an SLA, once per day/3 HD.


Frightful Presence:The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 30 feet × half the dragon's level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.


Crush: The dragon can make a crush attack dealing 2d8 damage base, already taking in acount huge size

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This special attack allows a flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size to land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against opponents three or more size categories smaller than the dragon (though it can attempt normal overrun or grapple attacks against larger opponents).

A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon’s body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don’t escape.

A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus 1½ times the dragon’s Strength bonus (round down).

Cloying Breath: Starting at 16th level, any enemy who fails their save against the dragon's repulsive gas is also slowed for the duration, as the spell.

Control Water: Starting at 17th level: as an SLA, once per day/4 HD.

Master of The Oceans: The Dragon gains a bonus to AC equal to its charisma modifier while underwater, a +5 bonus to its lightning breath DC against creatures under the water, and gains a +10' bonus to its swim speed for every HD it has (This does not stack with Float Like a Dragon, Swim Like a Fish). The Bronze Dragon also automatically succeeds on any swim checks.

Irresistible Breath: Starting at 19th level, the Dragon's Repulsion Breath is no longer considered mind-affecting, and gains a +1 bonus to its DC.

Control Weather: Starting at 20th level: as an SLA, once per day/5 HD.

Comments:

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Bronze dragon, woo! I balanced it against the blue dragon. It's pretty high charisma (second only to the silver dragon and, of course, the gold dragon), so I gave it a nice n' high bonus on that. +1 to ability scores over the blue, because while it actually gets more abilities, most of them aren't exactly combat-worthy: speak with animals? Create food/water? etc., and swim speed is never as good as a burrow speed.
Essentially, it'll dominate an underwater campaign, but that's how it should be. On land, it'll be probably a bit weaker than most of the other dragons. Just a little... though it'll still be more charismatic. I wanted it to have a niche.

[Makiru]

Got that done a lot quicker than I thought I would. Obviously, if any changes need to be made, please let me know so I can fix it.

Rukanyr

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{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Body of Madness, Stunning Slam, Freakish Stability, +1 Str, +1 Con
2|+1|+0|+0|+3|Lesser paralyzing poison, Fast Healing, +1 Str, +1 Con
3|+2|+1|+1|+3|Lesser Deafening Roar, Third Mouth, +1 Str, +1 Con
4|+3|+1|+1|+4|Forest of Claws +2, True Poison, +1 Str, +1 Con
5|+3|+1|+1|+4|Growth, Insane Speed, +1 Str, +1 Con
6|+4|+2|+2|+5|Deafening Roar, Forest of Claws +4,+1 Str, +1 Con
7|+5|+2|+2|+5|Reflexive Sunder, +1 Str, +1 Con
8|+6|+2|+2|+6|Forest of Claws +6, +1 Str, +1 Con
9|+6|+3|+3|+6|Sundering Roar, +1 Str, +1 Con[/table]

Hit dice: d8

Skills: 2+Int modifier. Class skills are Climb, Listen, Search, and Spot

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Natural Weapons, no armor

Language: Common


Body of Madness: A rukanyr loses all racial bonuses and becomes a Medium aberration (darkvision 60 feet). It has a base land speed of 30 feet and a climb speed of 10 feet. It has a primary tail slam that deals 2d6+Str damage and two secondary bites that deal 1d6+(1/2 Str) damage. It also gains a bonus to natural armor equal to 2 plus its Constitution modifier.

A rukanyr can manipulate small objects and levers with its many small claws, but cannot wield weapons, except for mouthpick weapons (LoM).

A rukanyr cannot use items that occupy the ring and hand slots. All other item slots are as normal for a humanoid creature.

Ability score increases: the rukanyr's Strength and Constitution increase by 1 at every level.

Stunning Slam (Ex): 1/day per 2 HD, the rukanyr can attempt to stun a creature it hits with its tail slam. The rukanyr must declare it is using this ability before the attack is made. If it misses, the attempt is wasted.
A creature hit by a stunning slam must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod) or be stunned for 1d4 rounds.

At 9 HD, the rukanyr can make a stun attempt at will.

Freakish Stability (Ex): A rukanyr constantly grows new legs that help it find purchase. It gets a +2 stability bonus per HD to Strength checks to avoid being bullrushed.

Lesser Paralyzing Poison (Ex): The rukanyr begins to develop a venom that slows down its target. Each successful bite attack delivers the poison. Fort DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod. Initial and secondary damage 1d6 Dex.

Fast Healing (Ex): A rukanyr heals from injuries quickly. It gains fast healing equal to 1/2 its HD.

Lesser Deafening Roar (Su): The rukanyr's central mouth has developed, letting it make a weak, yet earsplitting, roar. Once every 1d4 rounds, the rukanyr can roar as a standard action. All creatures besides itself within 30 feet must make Fortitude saves (DC: 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod) or be deafened for 1d6 rounds.

Third Mouth (Ex): The rukanyr gains a third bite attack at the same bonuses as the first two.

Forest of Claws (Ex): Some of the rukanyr's extraneous claws become strong enough to use in battle. Each claw is a secondary attack that deals 1d4+(1/2 Str) damage. It gains two claws at 4th level, which increases to four at 6th level, and 6 claws at 8th level. For every two hit dice beyond 8, the rukanyr gains one extra claw attack.

True Poison (Ex): The rukanyr's venom has reached full potency. Initial and secondary damage is 2d6 Dex.

Growth (Ex): The rukanyr grows one size category. Apply all necessary modifiers to the rukanyr's AC, attacks, skills, grapple, natural weapons, ect, but the rukanyr doesn't get any ability score/natural armor bonus or penalties. In addition, its natural armor increases by one.

Insane Speed (Ex): The rukanyr's land and climb speeds both increase by 10 feet. This stacks with any other ability that increases movement, such as a barbarian's Fast Movement.

Deafening Roar (Ex): The rukanyr has developed its roar to be louder and more potent. Range increases to 60 feet and creatures are deafened for 2d6 rounds.

Reflexive Sunder (Ex): The rukanyr's armor is composed of hard, shifting plates. These plates are now tough enough to grab and crush weapons that strike it. Anybody that strikes the rukanyr with a slashing or piercing melee weapon must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Dex mod) or have the armor plates take hold of it. The weapon takes (2d6/3HD)+Str mod damage and falls to the attacker's feet if unbroken.

This ability cannot be used if the rukanyr is wearing physical armor or barding of any kind.

Sundering Roar (Su): Now fully grown, the rukanyr is able to use its deadliest attack, a sonic lance that vibrates whatever it hits to pieces. While making a deafening roar, the rukanyr can target any object or creature within the radius of effect (60 feet). The target takes 1d6/HD sonic damage (Reflex save half, DC Con based). This damage also applies to the weapons and armor held and worn by any creature hit by this attack.

Sundering Roar can only be used while also making a deafening roar, but the rukanyr can make a deafening roar and not also use sundering roar.

Comments:

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The basis of this class was just to parcel out this scorpion monster's powers through the class at a reasonable pace. The rukanyr has a total of ten natural attacks that also needed to be spaced out along nine levels. I wasn't comfortable giving it three bites along side the tail, but two seemed to be alright for first level judging from other posts. The natural armor and sundering roar damage will be lower than the values in the Fiend Folio, but still feel good for now.

EDIT (8/30/10): Forest of Claws now gives one more claw for every two HD beyond 8. BAB changed to 3/4. Reflexive Sunder now scales with HD (2d6 for every 3 HD). Specified what items is can or can't use and that it can speak Common.

[Crafty Cultist]

Just a bit of advice, I'd make the rukanyr's natural armor 2 + con bonus and make it increase by 1 when it increases in size. since it probably wont be wearing armor and has thick armor plates higher natural armor would probably suit it

[Azathoth888]

If you are still taking requests I would really like to see the Spell weaver.

[Gorgondantess]

If you are still taking requests I would really like to see the Spell weaver.

What book is it from? Sounds interesting.

[Makiru]

Just a bit of advice, I'd make the rukanyr's natural armor 2 + con bonus and make it increase by 1 when it increases in size. since it probably wont be wearing armor and has thick armor plates higher natural armor would probably suit it

I was considering making the NA 2x Con mod, but that seemed a tad high. Your suggestion seems right, though. Change made, thanks for the input.

[Crafty Cultist]

What book is it from? Sounds interesting.

Its from the monster manual II. it has six arms and can cast spells with one arm per spell level, meaning six levels worth of spells per round while weaving

[Kobold-Bard]

Cool, but a bit weird. If I am not mistaken you can get cantrips, 1st level spells and 6th level spells by taking a level of wizard after your tenth marraenoloth level. I may be wrong though.

Assuming 10 monster levels, your first level of Wizard would be W11. This means you get 1x 3rd level spell/day and 1x 6th level spell/day.

At level 12 if you take Wizard again you get 1x 5th level spell/day and another 6th level spell/day.

Basically (asuming my Reading of it is right) you look at the table and only get the new spell slots/spells known that a character of that class would have got.

Edit: Anything else I need to do to the Janni before it gets listed? I've got a long train journey today so I'll probably be doing the Will o Wisp.

[Oslecamo]

dragonsamurai77:Well that's a whole lot of empty levels. I'll have to correct that myself later when I have the time.

Kobold-Bard:Minor correction in your Coautl, at the growth ability either say simply it grows or specify what exactly it gains. Saying it gains everything can be easily misunderstood.

Gorgondantess:Dragons don't get scaling blindsense.
-The bronze dragon's first growth should be at level 9.
-As strong as the red dragon, more charismatic than all the other dragons and standard Con? NO! You don't need to put extra stats in every level starting from 3.
-Save or die breath weapons at minimum level 5, not 3, and remove the custom one.
-Remove irresistible breath. Dragons have plenty of other tricks to rely on besides their breath weapons. If the Silver dragon cannot bypas paralysis immunity, neither should the bronze dragon.
-No to Master of the Oceans. Neither the Styx Dragon or Green Dragon get anything like that and they're both damn good swimmers. That's actualy an horrible ability for being situational and overpowered when it works. Being able to ignore underwater penalties is already aquatic enough, no need to make it better at water than any future aquatic monster we make here when it can also fly and stuff.

Makiru:Don't be lazy and tell the people to look at the table. Make a breakdown of what it's gained at each level. Also why int bonus? It has no Int-based abilities. Just give it 4 base skill points per level.

Give it a capstone that it keeps geting new claws as it increases HD.

Since it has no hands and not much on the way of utility abilities, you can probably afford to give it either another good save or average Bab.

[Gorgondantess]

Dragons don't get scaling blindsense.

Why? Everything else scales, hell, half of this project is to change static abilities to scaling ones.

-The bronze dragon's first growth should be at level 9.

Okies.

-As strong as the red dragon, more charismatic than all the other dragons and standard Con? NO! You don't need to put extra stats in every level starting from 3.

If you moved around any dragon in this thread it could get extra stats every level starting at 3. You just have some ridiculously eclectic statups. At least there's a method to my madness. And it has a grand total of +1 over the blue dragon.

-Save or die breath weapons at minimum level 5, not 3, and remove the custom one.

The slow? ...Alright.

-Remove irresistible breath. Dragons have plenty of other tricks to rely on besides their breath weapons. If the Silver dragon cannot bypas paralysis immunity, neither should the bronze dragon.

Ooookayyyyy...

-No to Master of the Oceans. Neither the Styx Dragon or Green Dragon get anything like that and they're both damn good swimmers. That's actualy an horrible ability for being situational and overpowered when it works. Being able to ignore underwater penalties is already aquatic enough, no need to make it better at water than any future aquatic monster we make here when it can also fly and stuff.

Alright, now this is just getting silly. You're saying no to all of my custom abilities- including one that is not unbalanced in the slightest, just because the base bronze dragon doesn't have it, when we should be adding stuff like that above and beyond what the base creature has. It's not even a custom breath, just a boost to the normal breath. Maybe Master of the Ocean is overpowered & situational, I'll grant you that, but once you strip away all of this stuff the bronze is going to be the worst dragon in this thread. It has SLAs that are pretty much utility, a mediocre speed, and you won't even let me give it high stats. Making all the changes you're giving me, I have nothing at higher levels but stat boosts (pretty much) and a dragon that is fundamentally worse from an optimization sense. Since you've canned all of my custom abilities, what do you suggest I put in their place?

[Kobold-Bard]

Will-O'-Wisp



Class

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Hit Dice: d8
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Translucent Body, Shock, Weapon Finesse, +1 Dex
2|+1|+0|+0|+3|Deter Magic, +1 Dex
3|+2|+1|+1|+3|Barely There, +1 Cha
4|+3|+1|+1|+4|To the skies, +1 Dex
5|+3|+1|+1|+4|Extinguish, +1 Dex
6|+4|+2|+2|+5|Nullify Magic, +1 Cha[/table]

Class Skills: (8+Int Mod, x4 at first level) Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Planes), Listen, Search, Spot, Survival

Proficiencies: Will-o'-Wisps are proficient with their Shock ability.

Class Features:

Translucent Body (Ex): The Will-o'-Wisp loses all racial traits and features, and gains the Aberation type and the traits included in that. It also gains the Air subtype.
It is Small size and has no land speed but has a fly speed of 30ft(G).
The Will-o'-Wisp gains a Deflection Bonus to it's AC equal to it's Cha Score.

Will-o'-Wisps lack fine manipulation, but can partially meld objects into their own body to carry them and perform simple actions like pulling levers and pressing buttons.

Will-o'-Wisp can use their body as either head+neck slot or body+belt slot. The Will-o'-Wisp can wear more magic equipment by having it crafted in the form of ethereal orbs that float around them like ioun stones, but said custom equipment costs double the normal market price.

If it multiclasses to an arcane/divine class it can count it's Will-O'-Wisp levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL and for the purposes of learning new spells and getting new spell slots.

Shock (Su): From first level the Will-o'-Wisp may make a melée touch attack that deals 1d8 electricity damage. It may make multiple attacks if it's BAB allows it to.
Damage increases by 1d8 for each 5HD the*Will-o'-Wisp has.

Bonus Feat: Lacking anything resembling real strength, Will-o'-Wisps learn to use their agility to impressive effect. They gain Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

Stat: Boosts: At levels 1, 2, 4 & 5 the Will-o'-Wisp gains +1 Dex. At levels 3 & 6 it gains +1 Cha.

Deter Magic (Ex): At second level the Will-o'-Wisp gains Spell Resistance equal to 11+HD+Cha Mod.

Barely There (Ex): At third level the Will-o'-Wisp starts to lose it's solidity. From now on it has a permanent 20% miss chance, and may become invisible (as the Invisibilty spell) 1/day for every HD it has. This miss chance is a displacement effect, and doesn't stack with any other miss chances except those granted by cover and from it's own invisibility ability.

This invisibilty cannot be overcome by magic effects like see invisibility, purge invisibility and similar, but still can be by blindsight and normal sense.

To the Skies (Ex): The Will-O'-Wisp's fly speed increases to 50ft(P).

Extinguish (Ex): From fifth level the Will-O'-Wisp's miss change increases by 10%, and by an additional 10% for every 3HD it gains from now on.
It may also now choose to become invisible as the spell Greater Invisibility, though it may still mimic the normal Invisibility spell if it wishes.

Nulify Magic (Su): At sixth level the Will-O'-Wisp becomes the bane of Mages everyhere. It becomes immune to any 0th, 1st & 2nd level spells that allow spell resistance, except Magic Missile.
For every additional 2HD it becomes immune to the next level of spells, assuming they allow Spell Resistance to apply. It is never immune to the Maze spell, this is an exception in the same way Magic Missile is.

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And that's the Will-O'-Wisp.

It can fly right away because it can't walk. I split it's magic immunity into good SR an then the ability to completely ignore some lower level spells. Powerful, but by 18HD 3rd level spells and lower aren't exactly the be all an end all.

Turned it's permanent invisibility into a miss chance and an Supernatural version of the invisibility spell.

In exchange for these it retains it's racial 1 good Save and poor skill points.

The Warlock/DFA thing was to give them something to move into easily, something it seemed to be lacking.

Hope it looks ok to you guys.

[Oslecamo]

Why? Everything else scales, hell, half of this project is to change static abilities to scaling ones.

Because dragons already have a crapload of scaling abilities. Blindsense 60 foot pretty good anyway.

If you moved around any dragon in this thread it could get extra stats every level starting at 3. You just have some ridiculously eclectic statups. At least there's a method to my madness. And it has a grand total of +1 over the blue dragon.

The blue dragon that has one single breath weapon and only one extra speed yes, that's why he gets some extra stats over the other dragons.

Alright, now this is just getting silly. You're saying no to all of my custom abilities- including one that is not unbalanced in the slightest, just because the base bronze dragon doesn't have it, when we should be adding stuff like that above and beyond what the base creature has.

Only when they need it. Dragons, with spellcasting, SLAs, one or more extra forms of travel, extra stats, natural weapons and then some natural extras (like alternate form) don't really need extra stuff. The Styx dragon got some love because diseases are weak on the hands of a player, the Pyroclastic lacked them to begin with and from the remaining dragons only the red gets a couple minor custom stuff, and only because fire is the weakest element.

It's not even a custom breath, just a boost to the normal breath. Maybe Master of the Ocean is overpowered & situational, I'll grant you that, but once you strip away all of this stuff the bronze is going to be the worst dragon in this thread. It has SLAs that are pretty much utility, a mediocre speed, and you won't even let me give it high stats. Making all the changes you're giving me, I have nothing at higher levels but stat boosts (pretty much) and a dragon that is fundamentally worse from an optimization sense. Since you've canned all of my custom abilities, what do you suggest I put in their place?

The bronze dragon has a swim speed, alternate form and a save or die breath weapon over the blue dragon. Wich, BTW, also has pretty much only utility SLAs. Ventricolism? Sound Imitation? I'll take the Bronze abilities any day of the week. So honestly I believe those more than enough to make up for a little smallers stats. If you want to play infiltrator anphibious dragon the bronze will make a great choice.

If you want custom abilities for your bronze dragon, it will cost you in (some more) stats.

[Gorgondantess]

Because dragons already have a crapload of scaling abilities. Blindsense 60 foot pretty good anyway.

Fine, fine.

The blue dragon that has one single breath weapon and only one extra speed yes, that's why he gets some extra stats over the other dragons.

Doesn't it get burrow as well?

Only when they need it. Dragons, with spellcasting, SLAs, one or more extra forms of travel, extra stats, natural weapons and then some natural extras (like alternate form) don't really need extra stuff. The Styx dragon got some love because diseases are weak on the hands of a player, the Pyroclastic lacked them to begin with and from the remaining dragons only the red gets a couple minor custom stuff, and only because fire is the weakest element.

Well, alright. Still, I really don't see the harm of throwing it a few bones for not multiclassing out to abjurant champion for the last 5 levels- and an SLA or two doesn't cut it.

The bronze dragon has a swim speed, alternate form and a save or die breath weapon over the blue dragon. Wich, BTW, also has pretty much only utility SLAs. Ventricolism? Sound Imitation? I'll take the Bronze abilities any day of the week. So honestly I believe those more than enough to make up for a little smallers stats. If you want to play infiltrator anphibious dragon the bronze will make a great choice.

Yes, but it also gets burrow speed, and ventriloquism is a lot more useful than create food/water, or speak with animals.

If you want custom abilities for your bronze dragon, it will cost you in (some more) stats.

So then it's not remove the abilities and the stats, it's remove the abilities or the stats? Because your first reply looked like remove the abilities and the stats.
Anyways, in that case I'll cut down the stats to something like +20, and swap out master of the oceans for adding summon nature's ally to spells known for every spell level (as it explicitly states in the fluff, and crunch really, that Bronze Dragons are good with animals).
Sound good?

[Oslecamo]

Doesn't it get burrow as well?

Actualy it should, will add now.

Well, alright. Still, I really don't see the harm of throwing it a few bones for not multiclassing out to abjurant champion for the last 5 levels- and an SLA or two doesn't cut it.

The dragons get either one last size increase or lots of score increases on their last level on top of some more SLAs.

Yes, but it also gets burrow speed, and ventriloquism is a lot more useful than create food/water, or speak with animals.

Not necessarily better than speak with animals. It's one of those spells that(just like ventricolism) just need a little imagination to be great.

So then it's not remove the abilities and the stats, it's remove the abilities or the stats? Because your first reply looked like remove the abilities and the stats.

Correct. The bronze dragon gets an extra breath weapon and alternate form. Burrow speed is better than swim speed, but when you add in the save or die breath and alternate form the bronze dragon already comes ahead in terms of natural abilities even whitout custom stuff, so it needs lower stats.

Anyways, in that case I'll cut down the stats to something like +20, and swap out master of the oceans for adding summon nature's ally to spells known for every spell level (as it explicitly states in the fluff, and crunch really, that Bronze Dragons are good with animals).
Sound good?

At best it would be worth wild empathy. The fluff never says bronze dragons summon forth their animal hordes to overwhelm the enemy, just that they talk to the local wildlife to get intel (cough speak with animals cough). Just give it around 20 total scores, no custom abilities and it should be ok. Heck, the silver dragon has just 19 total.

[Gorgondantess]

At best it would be worth wild empathy. The fluff never says bronze dragons summon forth their animal hordes to overwhelm the enemy, just that they talk to the local wildlife to get intel (cough speak with animals cough). Just give it around 20 total scores, no custom abilities and it should be ok. Heck, the silver dragon has just 19 total.

It's not a save-or-die: far from it, most enemies should be able to survive it. Adding the slow made it a save or die, but so long as your enemies are at least as fast as you, it shouldn't be that hard for them to get away unscathed, especially at early levels.

Correct. The bronze dragon gets an extra breath weapon and alternate form. Burrow speed is better than swim speed, but when you add in the save or die breath and alternate form the bronze dragon already comes ahead in terms of natural abilities even whitout custom stuff, so it needs lower stats.

You can't possibly say that its abilities are better than a red dragon. Its SLAs are mediocre, and it gets a mediocre alternate breath weapon, and it gets a mediocre move speed.
If you disagree, then I'll just hand it over to you. Removing the high ability scores is reasonable. Removing the custom abilities is reasonable. But both? I'll not bother with the effort, as I'll never use it.

[flabort]

Hey, Kuuubi! remember how you were looking for platinum dragons as a non-unique entity (aka a species)?

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The Immortals Handbook has them as a variety of high epic-low cosmic dragon; Bahamut is a great*3 wyrm with divine ranks.

I doubt you could really use them though; they come out of the egg as Gargantum creatures with CR 29, surpass anything in the Epic Level Handbook by the time they are Mature Adults, and by the time they are Great Wyrms they cast as level 47 clerics, have 3500 hp, and CR 95.

Furthur posts say it's either by Eternity or Mogoose publishing.

Not on the thread you started to find it, but they got it!
Just thought I'd let you know, if you didn't already.

95 levels may be a bit much, though.

[Oslecamo]

It's not a save-or-die: far from it, most enemies should be able to survive it. Adding the slow made it a save or die, but so long as your enemies are at least as fast as you, it shouldn't be that hard for them to get away unscathed, especially at early levels.

Most save-or-die don't actualy kill the target and a lot of them actualy make them harder to hurt. But it doesn't matter, because it takes them out of the battle while you deal with the companions that made their saves or didn't fit on the area. It's much easier to pick off enemies one by one than to face them all at once.

This is, you're basically saying that all fear spells, solid fog, forcecage, maze, entangle and the like are crap!

You can't possibly say that its abilities are better than a red dragon. Its SLAs are mediocre, and it gets a mediocre alternate breath weapon, and it gets a mediocre move speed.

It gets the same "mediocre" move speed of the red dragon, it can swim, it has no elemental vulnerability and better skill points.

If you disagree, then I'll just hand it over to you. Removing the high ability scores is reasonable. Removing the custom abilities is reasonable. But both? I'll not bother with the effort, as I'll never use it.

Will do, thanks for the base!

EDIT:So, why don't you pick one of the other dragons? We've got red, blue, purple, green, white, bone, pyroclastic and silver ready to use.

[Gorgondantess]

This is, you're basically saying that all fear spells, solid fog, forcecage, maze, entangle and the like are crap!

Quite the contrary: however if, say, fighting a creature with a burrow speed, it's worthless. Stuff like forcecage, maze, and entangle keep it in one place, but repulsion breath just forces it to move away.

Will do, thanks for the base!

Good; I'd hate to see it go to waste, but I've really just lost a lot of steam on it.
Anyways, I'm working on the Naztharune now. It should be up in... 10 minutes?

[Gorgondantess]

Naztharune Rakshasa

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HD:d8
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+0 |+ 0|+0 | +2 |Rakshasa Body, Sneak Attack +1d6
2|+1 |+ 0|+0 | +3 |Tyrant Hide, Evasion, Dex +1
3|+ 2|+ 1|+1 | +3 |Manipulator, Sneak Attack +2d6, Looks or Smarts
4|+ 3|+ 1|+1 | + 4|Uncanny Dodge, Detect Thoughts, Dex +1
5|+ 3|+ 1|+1 | +4 |Assassin, Lesser Shadow Jump, Sneak Attack +3d6
6|+4 |+ 2|+2 | +5|Change Shape, Dex +1
7|+ 5|+ 2|+2 | +5|Improved Evasion, Sneak Attack +4d6
8|+ 6/+1|+ 2|+2 | +6 |Improved Uncanny Dodge, Dex +1
9|+ 6/+1|+ 3|+3 | +6 |Master of Disguise, Sneak Attack +5d6, Looks or Smarts
10|+ 7/+2|+3|+3 | +7 |Hide In Plain Sight, Dex +1
11|+ 8/+3|+ 3|+3 | +7 |Greater Shadow Jump, Sneak Attack +6d6[/table]
Proficiencies: The Naztharune is proficient with all simple weapons & all light martial weapons, as well as one other martial weapon of its choice.

Skills: 4+int per level. Class skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Tumble.

Rakshasa Body: At first level, the Naztharune loses all other racial traits and gains outsider traits (basically Darkvision 60'), 2 claw attacks dealing 1d4+str damage, and medium size with a 40' move speed.
It also gains natural armor equal to its constitution bonus.

Sneak Attack: As the rogue ability, +Xd6 as shown in the table.

Tyrant Hide: At 2nd level, the Naztharune gains SR equal to 11+HD, and DR Good & Piercing equal to 1/2 HD.

Evasion: At 2nd level, as the rogue ability.

Ability Score Increases: +1 dex at every even level, for +5 dex at level 11, plus the bonus from Looks or Smarts.

Manipulator: At level 3, the Naztharune gains a bonus to all bluff & disguise checks equal to 1/2 its HD.

Looks or Smarts: At 3rd and 9th levels, the Naztharune gains +1 to either intelligence or charisma.

Uncanny Dodge: At 4th level, as the rogue ability.

Detect Thoughts (su): The Naztharune can use detect thoughts once per day for each HD it has, sustainable as a move action. At 6 HD this decreases to a swift action, and at 8 HD a free action. In addition, whenever successfully reading someone's mind, the bonus from Manipulator doubles.

Assassin: At 5th level, the Naztharune automatically qualifies for the assassin prestige class, despite any other requisites.

Lesser Shadow Jump (su): Starting at 5th level, the Naztharune may travel between shadows as if with a dimension door spell. It can travel a total of 10 feet per 3 HD each day, and may divide its movement amongst multiple uses.

Change Shape (Su): A rakshasa can assume any humanoid form, or revert to its own form, as a standard action 1/day for each HD it has. In humanoid form, a rakshasa loses its claw and bite attacks. A rakshasa remains in one form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but the rakshasa reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals its natural form.

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* The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.
* The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
* The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
* The creature retains all other special attacks and qualities of its original form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.
* The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.
* Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
* The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
* The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
* Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

Using this altered form, it gains a +10 bonus on disguise checks.

Improved Evasion: At 7th level, as the monk ability.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: At 8th level, as the Rogue ability.

Master of Disguise: When targeted by a true seeing spell while in it's altered form, the caster of the spell must make a CL check (DC 10+HD+Cha mod) or not be able to see through the Naztharune's disguise.

Hide in Plain Sight (su): At 10th level, a Naztharune can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a Naztharune can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Greater Shadow Jump (su): At 11th level, the Naztharune may use its shadow jump as a move action, and a number of feet per day equal to 20 times its HD.

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Like most outsiders, this one was pretty easy, and even most of its abilities were flat out vanilla, though I threw my own twist on the shadow jump: 20 feet a day is laaaaaame.
You may be wondering where the 'Assassin' ability came from: check out its favored classes. It has the ability, and I figured it would be a nice bone to throw at neutral or good aligned Naztharune: Naztharune 11/Assassin 9 looks like a pretty good, simple build.
I would've loved to give it full BAB, but methinks as is it might be a bit overpowered. However, if y'all (Read: Oslecamo) think that giving it full BAB would work, I most certainly will.

Changelog: removed good will saves, one looks or smarts, the dex bonus at level 11, and reduced skill points to 4+int.

[Mystic Muse]

EDIT:So, why don't you pick one of the other dragons? We've got red, blue, purple, green, white, bone, pyroclastic and silver ready to use.

I don't see a bone dragon anywhere. You also failed to mention Styx.

Hey, Kuuubi! remember how you were looking for platinum dragons as a non-unique entity (aka a species)?

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Furthur posts say it's either by Eternity or Mogoose publishing.

Not on the thread you started to find it, but they got it!
Just thought I'd let you know, if you didn't already.

95 levels may be a bit much, though.

Well I'd do this (20 Not 95 levels) but I don't have the book. I should also finish the mist dragon when I get the time since nobody else seems to want to do it.

[Gorgondantess]

Well I'd do this (A reasonable amount. Not 95 levels) but I don't have the book. I should also finish the mist dragon when I get the time since nobody else seems to want to do it.

What you might want to consider doing is check out the 2e platinum dragon: if I can remember correctly, it was more... reasonable.