Neogi character

[Paganboy28]

I am having a dumb moment...

If I want to create a Neogi character then its LA is +3. It also receives 5d8 HD for its aberration monstrous levels.

So does this mean that the ECL of a Neogi is actually 8, thus if I was to create a Neogi sorcerer at level 1 the ECL would be 9 or is it just Class Level + LA for a total of 4?

[Draz74]

So does this mean that the ECL of a Neogi is actually 8, thus if I was to create a Neogi sorcerer at level 1 the ECL would be 9

This is correct. The rules for monster-race characters are harsh.

[Paganboy28]

This is correct. The rules for monster-race characters are harsh.

But how does that work then? In Lords of Madness there is a Neogi Sorcerer entry with 6 levels of Sorcerer yet it is only CR 8.

I know CR isn't necessarily the same as ECL but there seems to be a huge disparaty here.

A 6th level neogi sorcerer PC would have a ECL of 5+3+6 = 14.

ECL 14 = CR 8????


I am setting up a jungle adventure whereby a Neogi outpost has been set up in the ruins of an ancient civilisation (the Neogi invaded and ate/enslaved the inhabitants). I want Neogi NPC's so need to know how to create them. I am assuming you create them just like PC's.

For standard Neogi I can use the basic stats, but for special NPC's I want them to have class levels.

[Mando Knight]

ECL 14 = CR 8????

Roughly. Note also that a 40-HD dragon is only CR 20-ish. It's not a 1-1 ratio.

[Draz74]

I know CR isn't necessarily the same as ECL but there seems to be a huge disparaty here.

ECL 14 = CR 8????

In this case, yes. Thing is, there are monster abilities that aren't that powerful in combat, but that are super-powerful in terms of PC Utility. These types of abilities (like flight, teleportation, innate spellcasting ...) make ECL go up without making CR go up.

The game designers also go overboard and make ECLs too high to really be playable in many cases.

[awa]

look at a vampire cr +2 level adjustment +8. If their npc ignore level adjustment just worry about cr, actually crs pretty lousy to (from the perspective trying to determine the creatures actual power)

at will incoporality is good for a monster but insanely powerful for a pc particularly at low levels

[Skaven]

If you're playing a full caster, unless the monster type states it progresses spellcasting then the HD alone is enough of a penalty, spellcasters can pretty much replicate racial abilities as a matter of course anyway with spells, so talk to your DM about just having the HD as a penalty.

Personally I use that rule myself (if you're a full spellcaster, I discount LA and just have monster levels as a penalty) and then I let the player convert monstrous HD to class levels using LA buy-off rules at their leisure.

[Paganboy28]

If you're playing a full caster, unless the monster type states it progresses spellcasting then the HD alone is enough of a penalty, spellcasters can pretty much replicate racial abilities as a matter of course anyway with spells, so talk to your DM about just having the HD as a penalty.

Personally I use that rule myself (if you're a full spellcaster, I discount LA and just have monster levels as a penalty) and then I let the player convert monstrous HD to class levels using LA buy-off rules at their leisure.

I'm the DM and its to create an NPC not a PC.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm the DM and its to create an NPC not a PC.

Then ignore LA altogether. It's a PC mechanic, not a DM one.

[The Glyphstone]

Indeed - as an NPC, you only need to care about CR, not ECL or LA. LA is inflated compared to CR because of, as mentioned, monsters tend to have abilities that aren't usually available to PCs. For the monsters, this isn't a big deal, because they'll usually be dead at the end of the fight, but the PCs get to use those special abilities repeatedly. That's in addition to stuff like flight adn teleportation, which are the same problem - a bit of extra mobility for the monsters in their designated encounter, a fundamental game alteration for the PCs.

[Swooper]

Remember that a CR n monster is supposed to challenge four ECL n characters. CR and ECL are measuring totally different things, hence the disparity.

Edit: Oh, I was going to mention this too: Read this, especially the paragraphs about Associated and Nonassociated Class Levels. Note that Sorcerer is not an associated level for neogi.

You're welcome

[Urpriest]

Probably going to be ninja'd, but to find CR for NPCs add their monster CR to their class level or half their class level, depending on whether it's associated or nonassociated. There's a chart in the back of the MM, but basically a class is associated if it's a sneaky class for a sneaky monster, a combat class for a combat monster, or a casting class for a monster that already can cast spells. Classes also become associated when they reach some threshold (half the RHD or something).

[Swooper]

Probably going to be ninja'd

Yup. By twelve minutes.

[BobVosh]

note any class is "associated" after it passes the monsters HD in class levels.