Thrown Shrunk Item

[liquid150]

Let's assume for a second, that I have a shrunk piece of stone that was originally of large size (10x10). I throw the stone and then speak the command word. May I treat the thrown stone as a splash weapon since it occupies such a large space, and make a ranged touch attack at an intersection?

[Snake-Aes]

Hmm, that's rather tricky. Calling it a splash attack is kinda hard to swallow because the rock won't actually splash, just punch through a large area.

Is there actual rules on that? Siege setups could have made up something you can use. The actual rule on shrunk items only covers normal attacks.

[liquid150]

Hmm, that's rather tricky. Calling it a splash attack is kinda hard to swallow because the rock won't actually splash, just punch through a large area.

Is there actual rules on that? Siege setups could have made up something you can use. The actual rule on shrunk items only covers normal attacks.

AFAIK there isn't a rule. Where can I find seige rules?

I agree that it doesn't fit the exact definition of a splash weapon, but it logically makes sense to my weak mind.

[Snake-Aes]

There's little consistency on rules around "huge objects thrown at your direction". Some allow reflex saves to take less damage. Some allow reflex saves to not be stuck under it. Some go by attack. The damage itself sometimes goes by weapon rules (colossal sling bullet!), some goes by falling items damage.

[liquid150]

There's little consistency on rules around "huge objects thrown at your direction". Some allow reflex saves to take less damage. Some allow reflex saves to not be stuck under it. Some go by attack. The damage itself sometimes goes by weapon rules (colossal sling bullet!), some goes by falling items damage.

I hate inconsistency.

[Enguhl]

Giants throw boulders, there's some inspiration.

[liquid150]

Giants throw boulders, there's some inspiration.

While true, the boulders giants throw aren't quite so large they occupy an area greater than a 5 foot square.

[sdream]

The golden rule for balance is "there's no such thing as a free lunch", also "nobody likes a wise guy".

A low level utility spell should not be interpreted as to provide for massive reliable damage. If you want to do damage, use a damage spell.

An easy explanation for shrink item being a non-damaging spell is that the item returns to it's normal size and mass gradually, and may easily be prevented from doing so by obstruction or motion.

In RAI vs RAW terms, it is "Shrink Item for X days" not "Throw boulders to crush foes".

There are no rules for exploiting the expansion of objects, and it should not be done. The spell is plenty useful already.

[Foryn Gilnith]

The golden rule for balance is "there's no such thing as a free lunch", also "nobody likes a wise guy".

Generic adages are not guaranteed to be true. Given that they have to be rather simple to catch on, it's arguable that they're usually false. In any case, they're not context-sensitive, and many GMs won't mind such a use of the spell. Some will support it. Some will oppose your partitioning of spells into damage/not-damage.

Unnecessary ranting aside, I do think you're on to something. Command words with items take a standard action to activate; it could be the same here. If it takes at least a good few seconds to activate, the unshrinking is most definitely not instantaneous. There could be a whole host of aiming/timing/etc problems making the offensive use of Shrink Item impractical.

[Greenish]

There are no rules for exploiting the expansion of objects, and it should not be done. The spell is plenty useful already.

Yeah, being creative with spells is doin' it wrong.

Anyway, there was an Eberron monster somewhere, a flying construct that bombarded enemies with boulders it carried shrunken. I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Edit]: Warforged raptor. Not much help though. There's also a 2nd level druid spell in spell compendium that causes thrown stones to grow into boulders.

[subject42]

Unnecessary ranting aside, I do think you're on to something. Command words with items take a standard action to activate; it could be the same here. If it takes at least a good few seconds to activate, the unshrinking is most definitely not instantaneous. There could be a whole host of aiming/timing/etc problems making the offensive use of Shrink Item impractical.

Readied actions and hirelings with high dex mods could probably get around that.

[Darrin]

Let's assume for a second, that I have a shrunk piece of stone that was originally of large size (10x10). I throw the stone and then speak the command word. May I treat the thrown stone as a splash weapon since it occupies such a large space, and make a ranged touch attack at an intersection?

Thrown weapons use the scatter diagram on page 158 of the PHB. It's not exactly the same as throwing a splash weapon, but it uses the same rules.

I'd probably discourage treating a 10'x10' block of stone as a splash weapon, simply because it's fairly obvious you're dealing with a solid object and not a liquid. Rather than a ranged touch attack, you'll want to target an intersection and make a normal ranged attack roll against an AC of 5. To determine the damage, calculate the height of the throw (or use height = 1/2 distance to target) and use the falling object rules in the PHB/SRD (roughly, 200 lbs falling 10' = 1d6 damage, +1d6 per additional 200 lbs or 10', capped at 20d6).

Note: If you're using the falling object rules in the PHB, targets in the square where the object falls *do not* get a save to avoid the damage. If you have Heroes of Battle, then there is a rule in there somewhere that grants a Ref save to avoid falling objects.

[Admiral Squish]

Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster.

This line was a lot of fun, because I had a DM who let me cast shrink item on an iron golem. Lob it over the enemy lines and it unshrunk to lay waste.

Also, would a person count as a solid surface? If you had, say, a colossal arrow shrunk down, then fired it into a person, would the arrow enlarge inside the person?

[liquid150]

Thrown weapons use the scatter diagram on page 158 of the PHB. It's not exactly the same as throwing a splash weapon, but it uses the same rules.

I'd probably discourage treating a 10'x10' block of stone as a splash weapon, simply because it's fairly obvious you're dealing with a solid object and not a liquid. Rather than a ranged touch attack, you'll want to target an intersection and make a normal ranged attack roll against an AC of 5. To determine the damage, calculate the height of the throw (or use height = 1/2 distance to target) and use the falling object rules in the PHB/SRD (roughly, 200 lbs falling 10' = 1d6 damage, +1d6 per additional 200 lbs or 10', capped at 20d6).

Note: If you're using the falling object rules in the PHB, targets in the square where the object falls *do not* get a save to avoid the damage. If you have Heroes of Battle, then there is a rule in there somewhere that grants a Ref save to avoid falling objects.

Yeah, this is kindof where I was going with this.

I found the Aerial Bombardment rules in Heroes of Battle, these rules are for dropped objects from overhead (I could do nearly the same thing by flying overhead and dropping the object, after all). These state that you make an attack roll against an AC of 5, and entitles the target to a DC 15 reflex save to avoid the damage. Were the exact situation given and I were DM, I would give the target at least a -2 circumstantial penalty due to not having the full range of options available to dodge (since the rock was larger than a full square).

[herrhauptmann]

In RAI vs RAW terms, it is "Shrink Item for X days" not "Throw boulders to crush foes".
There are no rules for exploiting the expansion of objects, and it should not be done. The spell is plenty useful already.

There is actually a bag of giants boulders or somesuch, probably in MiC since I recall it being a 3/day item.
I'd recommend looking at that as the basis for the item

[Curmudgeon]

Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster.

Foryn Gilnith has started down the right path, so let's finish killing this off.

Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

So you've got a shrunken boulder. You throw it, and that's an attack. Following the rules, you resolve that attack, then you can perform some other action if you've got any left. Normally you don't get an extra standard action, but some mechanisms would allow this. Say you had a Belt of Battle; you could activate it as a swift action and get an extra standard action, which you could use before your shrunken boulder attack , or after the attack is resolved.

Absent some special ability that would allow you a standard action between the attack roll and damage roll, you're just not going to be able to make this work under the D&D rules.

[Admiral Squish]

Foryn Gilnith has started down the right path, so let's finish killing this off. So you've got a shrunken boulder. You throw it, and that's an attack. Following the rules, you resolve that attack, then you can perform some other action if you've got any left. Normally you don't get an extra standard action, but some mechanisms would allow this. Say you had a Belt of Battle; you could activate it as a swift action and get an extra standard action, which you could use before your shrunken boulder attack , or after the attack is resolved.

Absent some special ability that would allow you a standard action between the attack roll and damage roll, you're just not going to be able to make this work under the D&D rules.

Second character readies an action.

[Curmudgeon]

Second character readies an action.

Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.

So this second character can ready the action to happen before the attack. How is that going to help (other than providing amusement from crushing the intended thrower)?

[Set]

An easy explanation for shrink item being a non-damaging spell is that the item returns to it's normal size and mass gradually, and may easily be prevented from doing so by obstruction or motion.

My players are pretty science-minded, so I'd rule (or have ruled against me, if I tried it) that the force generated doesn't magically multiply with the size of the item. If I throw a 5 lb rock with 100 lbs of force, and in mid-flight it turns to a 1000 lb rock, it drops from the air, as there is no longer enough force to budge it. The spell becomes a good way to perhaps create some obstacles to movement in a hurry, or, in the case of a sack full of smaller boulders / caltrops / etc., fill some squares with difficult terrain, but a shrunk Colossal crossbow bolt doesn't turn into a ballista bolt, it just goes thunk to the ground, as your medium-sized crossbow wouldn't have put enough force into it to make a difference.

If I *drop* such an item, then gravity does all the work, and it's all good. But I'd allow a Reflex save to leap clear and avoid all damage, in most cases (with the DC set by the size of the item, and perhaps modified by the circumstances. Someone trapped in a hedge maze or standing in ankle-deep mud might have problems with the dodging thing...).

Another way to seriously hurt someone with shrink item would be to cause an arrow, bolt, harpoon-head, etc. to expand greatly *after* it hits. I'd still allow some sort of save, to take advantage of the expanding weapon to pull it free suddenly before it reaches full size (half damage, in this case?), but this would be a pretty vicious tactic in combination with a crossbow bolt.

Similarly, shrink item cast on a ginormous net, which is then expanded in size after it entangles someone, could appropriately increase the DC to escape from it (as you've suddenly got the sort of net that usually gets pulled behind a fishing trawler weighing you down) and make it ridiculously impractical to cut oneself out of.

There'd still be lots of creative potential, but nothing quite so easy as throwing rocks (firing arrows, etc.) at people and having them turn into catapult stones (ballista bolts) mid-flight.

[Saurus33]

How about using it as part of a siege? Shrink a massive boulder. Place your shrunken boulder in a crack in a castle wall or something along those lines. Speak the command word, and then the wall is ripped apart by the expanding boulder.

[Cespenar]

It's a 3rd level spell. Another 3rd level spell is Fireball. Just make the expanding boulder do xd6 damage to a 10'x10' area with a reflex save for half, and it's cool. Avoid making things more complicated than they need to be.

[Project_Mayhem]

I would have thought dim. dooring or flying with it over the enemy would get round the standard action thing. Hold it above the enemy very lightly between your thumb and forefinger and say the word

[herrhauptmann]

My players are pretty science-minded, so I'd rule (or have ruled against me, if I tried it) that the force generated doesn't magically multiply with the size of the item. If I throw a 5 lb rock with 100 lbs of force, and in mid-flight it turns to a 1000 lb rock, it drops from the air, as there is no longer enough force to budge it. The spell becomes a good way to perhaps create some obstacles to movement in a hurry, or, in the case of a sack full of smaller boulders / caltrops / etc., fill some squares with difficult terrain, but a shrunk Colossal crossbow bolt doesn't turn into a ballista bolt, it just goes thunk to the ground.

I like the idea of instant difficult terrain... (Had thought of shrinking a pond into a cloth, then using that when fleeing upstairs to stop pursuit)

For the other part, what does your group do when an enlarged person throws an object, or fires a weapon? I psywar expanded up to huge size from medium launches an arrow at someone, mid flight the arrow goes back to medium size, so it deals only the 1d8 damage of a medium arrow, rather the 2d6 damage of a huge arrow. Do you rule that upon shrinking and becoming a quarter its previous weight that the arrow suddenly quadruples in speed? Either the arrow should shatter under the acceleration, get ripped to shreds from friction, or get a big range increase.
Plus your shot would now miss, timing off for a shot against a moving target, and the amount of drop over a given distance would change.
Well crap, coulda sworn it was projectiles and thrown. Point remains about it speeding up with the size change.

[Esser-Z]

From the SRD, thrown weapons shrink down and so return to their previous damage. Projectiles, however, do damage based on the weapon firing them, so there is no change when they shrink back down! This makes sense, with physics, to an extent. The thrown weapon gains more power from being a heavier impact. The projectile gains more power because the bow fires it with more power. It's the the size of the bow there that matters, not the size of the projectile.