[3.5] Kitsune Arcane Rogue?

[Amoren]

Alright, I'm creating a kitsune for an online RPG campaign (racial info here, but the basics is its a +1 LA race that gets Alter Self as an at will ability at 1/2th character level ability, fey-type, and -4 Str, +2 Dex, Cha). And, for the strongest while, I've had an itch to play an arcane rogue (key emphasis on /rogue/. Not a wizard with sneak attack, but a rogue).

As a point of reference (this might be important), I rolled really well on my attributes (18, 18, 16, 16, 14, 12), and have currently allocated it to these stats (although the game hasn't started yet and these can change): Str 12 (16-4), Dex 20 (18+2), Con 14, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 18 (16+2).

I want him to have some staying power in melee (ya know, stabbity stab stabbing) which I think is possible with defensive spell buffs and some items. I was originally planning on using a build I found on the rogue handbook on wizards.com, but after reading the one on this forum (which is much better, kudos to the author) I think I'm going to try something different.

My idea so far is something along the lines of Rogue 3-4/Sorcerer 1-2/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 4. I know that people say/think that the wizard is the much stronger of the two, but I just think that a spontaneous spell caster fits the character concept better than a prepared caster. It gets BAB 12, which is enough to qualify for six attacks per round if dual wielding and should hit pretty well with wraithstrike. 8d6 base sneak attack (+6d6 from Hunter's Eye, and maybe +3d6 more with Nightsong Transformation if they stack), and cast 8th level spells.

My question is, would this build work (and be effective) in game? I'm probably going to play him as a melee attacker using his spells to considerably increase his survivability and damage (the party already has a druid/kobold theurge kobold and a gnome wizard planning to go effigy master/alchemist savant). And, as a rather guilty pleasure, he's probably going to use a two-bladed sword (perhaps with the fey template, if that allows dex to be used; after all at least one half of the double-sword is considered a light weapon) since it does some pretty good damage and as a double weapon he can hold it with one hand to cast a spell with his off hand, use it two handed for a single attack, or dual wield it for more attacks in full round actions. At low levels he'll probably be using a quarterstaff and a healthy supply of daggers for piercing/slashing.

I'm also open to suggestions about how to (perhaps) play a better arcane rogue. I thought about factotum (which seems pretty... awesome, if my DM allows it), but I fear that the factotum wouldn't contribute much to combat if he's not abusing the iajutsu skill (which I'm also not comfortable using, as I believe the skill didn't make it into 3.5 outside of Dragon, and taking anything there is always sketchy). I've also thought of using/being a bard, but the idea of a music playing spell caster doesn't really appeal to me. /:

I do have a few questions though; as in people's thoughts of going rogue vs. spell thief for entry requirements, or maybe basing the build off of beguiler instead of sorcerer. Beguiler seems pretty awesome, but unfortunately I think I'd have to resign to being a sneaky controller instead of a sneaky backstabber (as the beguiler lacks the spells wraithstrike and nightsong transformation, which is part of the reason I think this can idea can work (in addition to the defensive spells that can be used)).

Edit: I'm using the race MINUS the possession power. The DM interpreted it as an ability the fox got at level six, not as a sixth level spell he could take as a casting class.
Edit2: Flaws are allowed for the campaign, but I would try to keep those at a minimum. :3

[Diarmuid]

What level are you starting at?

Figuring out your build to level 20 is great and all, but if you're actually starting at level 1...some of that may be pretty painful to get through until you really hit your stride.

[Amoren]

The campaign is level two right now, so depending on how things go I might jump in at level two. I understand that I might be a bit less effective at the beginning, although he'd probably default to being a rogue (with a level of sorcerer) until he starts getting into Unseen Seer and starts blending the arcane with his rogue.

I also just realized that my idea to have a fey templates double-bladed sword fails miserably (it can only to applied to one handed weapons). So any suggestions about what to do for weapons (specifically to ease spell casting while dual wielding beyond using daggerspell mage) would help.

And, I also think I forgot to mention that its not exactly an optimized/munchkin campaign (well, except for that one kobold sorcerer/druid, who had a caster level of three at level one and could use scorching ray...). So he doesn't need to be broken, but just needs to be effective and fun.

[Diarmuid]

Pretty sure there's a feat that lets you cast with weapons to hand, Somatic Weaponry or something from Complete Arc or Mageor possibly even Adv.

As for weapons...as is normal for TWF, if you're going to take any feats to make yourself better with weapons then you'll likely want two of the same light weapon so you can wield one of each in each hand and reap full benefit, most common options being Weapon Finesse.

[Greenish]

As for weapons...as is normal for TWF, if you're going to take any feats to make yourself better with weapons then you'll likely want two of the same light weapon so you can wield one of each in each hand and reap full benefit, most common options being Weapon Finesse.

In 3.5, you don't take Weapon Finesse for a specific weapon, it applies to all that qualify. Weapon Focus is pretty poor, Imp. Critical comes online for non-full BAB guy when you could just get keen enchants even if you go crit-fishing, and so forth.

An interesting option (if you can spare the feat) is the gnomish quickrazor for offhand. It's a free action to draw and sheathe, and is designed to be sheathed after each hit.

[Amoren]

Well, campaign's started now, and my little fox thief is now a level one/two rogue (the next level will come after this last encounter that the group decided to wait till next week since it was late). Thanks to someone who's privately messaged me, I got the hook up on a few feats that have helped a lot.

Currently he has Str 12, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 18 after his racial bonuses/penalties. He has the flaw shaky (explained in character as him being a bit to eager to shoot/throw before he can aim, thus causing the penalty to his ranged attacks), and his feats are Faerie Mystery Initiate (using the Int instead of Con to HP), and Nymph's Kiss (yay 13 skill points per rogue level!). So far, he's been disguising himself as a half-elf while around the group (for the bonuses to listen, search, spot and diplomacy/gather information, since he's most likely the best face the group has).

I'm still unsure if I should develop him into an arcane rogue (I've come to grips with the fact that a wizard actually works just as well, if only because the idea of a feral fox flipping through his spell book was so cute to not use), so something along the lines of Rogue 1-4/Wizard 1-4/Unseen Seer seems like it would work well, especially since with the Mystery Feat I'm getting +4 HP per level to offset the d4 hit die (more, if I pump my intelligence instead of dexterity). On the other paw, if I go a more mundane route, picking up three levels in Swashbuckler and some levels in Invisible Blade, that juicy intelligence stat would net me damage and AC (or hell, that Int based Monk feat added into the mix would make him an hittable thinking machine).

At least if I go the arcane rogue route, I don't have to worry about crafting (and thus potentially free to trade in scribe scroll for a fighter bonus feat), since a gnome wizard in the party is planning on going Effigy Master and Alchemist Savant to handle all our crafting needs.

I've also wanted to get your guys impression on taking Improved Familiar. I'm unsure that if increased spell casting level (from Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster) would also apply to increasing my familiar's strength without taking the feat that gives you a familar in the first place (applying it to my Unseen Seer levels and what not), but I just like the idea of a blink dog that can teleport to positions for easy flanking with my rogue.

[FMArthur]

Maybe you should consider asking to change to a Psychic Rogue. It is basically everything you are asking for with the word substitution of "psychic" or "psionic" wherever you'd see "arcane", is very simple as one single class, and progresses its spells and Roguish abilities simultaneously and much more evenly, which I think you'll appreciate a great deal when starting at a low level. Plus, that spell list? Almost entirely buffs and defensive spells. Your Int-based casting in addition to having all levels in a 6+Int class will probably net you more skill points, too.

[Amoren]

I actually kept juggling back and forth with the psychic rogue option. It seemed pretty good, but given that I've never played (or hell, even seen) a psionic class in play during DnD I wasn't sure how the mechanic behind it would work out (and especially how the psychic focus thing works). I do have a PDF of complete psionic, but really, it's just a mechanic I'm unfamiliar with. And if the DM's unfamiliar with it as well... Heck, he might not even have psionics in his campaign (so getting Use Psionic Device over Use Magic would be a nice loss).

That, and I wasn't sure how the thematic of being a psychic would mesh with the fey concept behind the character.

[FMArthur]

I actually kept juggling back and forth with the psychic rogue option. It seemed pretty good, but given that I've never played (or hell, even seen) a psionic class in play during DnD I wasn't sure how the mechanic behind it would work out (and especially how the psychic focus thing works). I do have a PDF of complete psionic, but really, it's just a mechanic I'm unfamiliar with. And if the DM's unfamiliar with it as well... Heck, he might not even have psionics in his campaign (so getting Use Psionic Device over Use Magic would be a nice loss).

That, and I wasn't sure how the thematic of being a psychic would mesh with the fey concept behind the character.

Complete Psionic doesn't have as much information on Psionics as the Expanded Psionics Handbook, but that's actually a really awesome thing: Expanded Psionics Handbook is mostly up on the internet as part of the SRD.

Anyway, it's not incredibly different from spells. You 'manifest' all of your psionic powers from one unified power point reserve (instead of a complex 'Spells Per Day' chart). Your class dictates how many power points you get (and you add 1/2 your manifester level times your casting stat to get bonus power points in addition to that), what powers you can know and what power level they can be just like spellcasters and spell levels. If the power you manifest has an 'augmentation' option, you can spend more power points to give it extra effects. You cannot spend more power points at once than your manifester level. Also, it's only mentioned in one place so it's not immediately obvious, but Psionics by default interact with everything else as if it were normal magic, including magic items and Spell Resistance.

Psionics is just a more natural magic, man. Why would that be out of line with a fey theme?

[Amoren]

Actually, I went through my book list and found that I did, in fact, have the expanded psionic handbook (after looking through Comp. Psion, when it stated that they the rules were stated in there). I went through it, read some of it, and came across the statement when it gave the assessment that psionics acted just like spells in relation to the effect. So I suppose it is possible that I could fluff it all as 'wild/manifesting' magic outside of the typical disciplines of other arcane classes.

However, I still feel like I have to talk to the DM to see if he's willing to have a psychic rogue run around in his campaign. I then have to see if he'll be willing to let me modify my character into a psychic rogue... Of course, the only problem I see is A) what skills am I going to have to take away (and UMD most likely isn't an easy one since that might go to Autohypnosis, which has some pretty awesome effects), and B) not having trap sense to trade for Penetrating Strike is going to suck.

It's still an interesting option if the fluff and the transformation is allowed, although I guess I'm still left with deciding between mundane rogue or 'spell/psychic rogue'... And, I'll be quite honest, I really liked the idea of the kitsune in fox form riding around by sitting on top of his blink dog familiar.

[true_shinken]

Amoren, I believe you are talking abou the Lurk. People in this thread are talking about the Psychic Rogue.

[Amoren]

No, no, no. I am, in fact, talking about the Psychic Rogue. The problem is, however, that even with my 18 Intelligence and Nymph's Kiss, I still found my skill points rather tightly spread out along the social skills (to be the party's face and to fit the character), and the trap/scout skills, as well as tumble to avoid AoOs from flanking and moving around. If I change to a Psychic Rogue, I'm going to have to try to figure out where to cut back, as the Psychic Rogue only gets 6+Int skill ranks per level.

[true_shinken]

No, no, no. I am, in fact, talking about the Psychic Rogue. The problem is, however, that even with my 18 Intelligence and Nymph's Kiss, I still found my skill points rather tightly spread out along the social skills (to be the party's face and to fit the character), and the trap/scout skills, as well as tumble to avoid AoOs from flanking and moving around. If I change to a Psychic Rogue, I'm going to have to try to figure out where to cut back, as the Psychic Rogue only gets 6+Int skill ranks per level.

Well, that is a prolem with Rogues. You just never seem to have enough skill points.

[Amoren]

Alright, so far so good. Got to level three (two for me), and picked up another level of rogue along with a flaw/feat (weapon finesse). I'm still unsure of whether to make it an arcaney class or not, but I think I've finalized a few ideas.

If I go the arcane route, I'll probably take beguiler as the base class since it practically fulfills everything I wanted arcane for the fluff. Not sure if I want to take it deeper than a one or two level dip (perhaps R 19/B 1, or mixing up those last three levels with something else).

I've also thought about fulfilling the fluff part of the class with swordsage, as its a rather mystic-ee type class with great melee support. Again, whether this is going to be just a one or two level dip I'm not sure about. Although if there was a Daring Outlaw for Swordsage and Rogue I would be happy as all hell. :D