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Thread: Beguiler help

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Beguiler help

    Hi

    I need help with feat selections for a level 5 beguiler.
    Attributes are pretty bad (were rolled, so nothing I can do there): 8,8,10,12,12,18
    I thought 18 in int (+1 at level 4), 12s in con and cha, 10 dex, wis and str 8

    Obviously it will never be a great melee fighter so I thought I concentrate pretty much on my casting.

    It's a human, so 3 feats.
    Spell Focus Illusion and Enchantment, Greater SF Illusion ?
    Or maybe drop GSF and get Combat Casting?
    Or another idea what to take?

    Oh and while on the topic already, is Spellcraft important at this level? (I know it gets important when you go into the epic range, but in low levels?) There's also a wizard in the group, so I guess identifying magic will be his job anyway.

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    Keld Denar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Beguiler help

    Check out Complete Mage. Unsettling Enchantment is awesome for a Beguiler. Most wizards tend to drop Enchantment, denying them access to this great feat. It basically tacks on a nasty debuff for when foes MAKE the save vs your debuffs. Instead of all or nothing, this gives you an all or little effect, a Will Partial if you will.

    Another great feat for Beguilers is Versatile Spellcaster (RotD). When you get higher levels, you're lower level spell slots tend to sit around neglected. This feat lets you pool together 2 slots a level lower to cast a higher level spell. If you just use it like this, its good. The funny thing about Beguilers is that they technically know EVERY spell on their list. That means that theoretically, you could burn 2 slots of your highest level to cast a spell from the next spell level up. It also means that you can qualify for higher level Advanced Learnings than normal. This function rates middle-high on the scale of abusive stuff, so if you don't do it, thats fine. Its still a VERY useful feat for turning all of those 1st level slots into something more.

    Look into taking a level of Mindbender (CArcane) for your 6th level. Beguilers have no problem meeting the prereqs, since they are all skills. Telepathy out to 100' is pretty awesome, but particularly awesome is the ability then to take the Mindsight feat from Lords of Madness (somewhere around page 126 IIRC). This feat lets you "see" people based on their Int score. This is immensely helpful if your DM likes to have bad guys sneak up on you by magical or mundane means.

    As long as you have Lords of Madness open, take a looksie at the players section. There is a feat there called Darkstalker. If you want to be the sneakiest sneak to ever sneak a peek, this is the feat you want. Normally, features like Blindsense, Blindsight, Tremorsense, Scent, and such will defeat mundane hiding. Darkstalker blinds you to these features, assuming you can make the stealth checks. Probably not a great one at low levels because you won't have the super high skills nor will most foes have heightened detection, but definitely something worth picking up around level 9 or so.
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Beguiler help

    Thanks for the answers, very helpful!
    Unsettling Enchantment sounds nice, and from how I understand it the debuff also works if the enchantment hits, not just those that save against it.

    I'm not sure that Versatile Spellcaster trick to cast higher level spells actually works though.

    In the Beguiler description it says "When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler’s spell list", it doesn't say anything about you knowing them before you get that new level of spells. But even if it works, you're right it sounds more like an exploit than intented.
    But yes, it may definitely be nice later when level 1 spells aren't used that often anymore. I guess you can also use 2 level 0 spells to cast a level 1.
    Can you use 4 level 1 to cast a level 3 spell?

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    Default Re: Beguiler help

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    Can you use 4 level 1 to cast a level 3 spell?
    No, the feat doesn't give you an actual spell slot, so you can't chain it.
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    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
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    Default Re: Beguiler help

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    Thanks for the answers, very helpful!
    Unsettling Enchantment sounds nice, and from how I understand it the debuff also works if the enchantment hits, not just those that save against it.
    Yea, but if someone failed their save vs your Dominate Person, they are now YOURS to do with as you please. If you want them to die, you can accomplish this easily with little persuasion, and a -2 penalty isn't gonna make a big difference. The biggest part of it is that you always at least get SOMETHING, which is the main complaint about the Enchantment school. Its either all or nothing. This gives you all or something, which is remarkably better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    I'm not sure that Versatile Spellcaster trick to cast higher level spells actually works though.
    Oh trust me, it does. When you burn 2 of your highest level slots, you gain a pseudo-slot 1 level higher. You are now "able to cast" that level of spells and thus know all of the spells in that level.

    It works, as written, but whether or not you use it like that is between you and your DM and your comfort level on power. If you only have 1 encounter per day, its REALLY powerful to nova your highest level spell slots. If you have more than 1, its wise to be more conservation minded.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY! AILHAY THULUCAY!
    _________________________________
    A beholder’s favorite foods include small live mammals, exotic mushrooms and other fungi, gnomes, beef, pork, colorful leafy vegetables, leaves, flower petals, insects, and birds.

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    Default Re: Beguiler help

    Even if the DM disallows Versatile Spellcaster getting you access to spells you can't normally cast, the ability to burn two level 0 spells for a level 1, or 2 level 1 spells for a level 2, is still mighty handy.

    Another handy feat (maybe for later in your career) is Song of the Dead (Dragon Magazine Compendium, if that's available) - lets your mind affecting spells affect intelligent undead, for a +1 level metamagic.

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    Forever Curious's Avatar

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    Good question

    Default Re: Beguiler help

    For great annoyance, you can go Sacred Vow (1st Human), Vow of Nonviolence (1st), and Vow of Peace (3rd) all from Book of Exalted Deeds, netting you a +4 DC to ALL your spells (due to none of them causing lethal damage), a constant aura of calm emotions, and weapons that attack you breaking on a failed save. Unfortunately it has a nasty drawback of imposing penalties on you and your party for killing things unless you give them a chance to surrender and you losing the feats permanently if you let someone die/deal lethal damage. Consult with your DM, but these feats are amazing for Illusion and Enchantment caster builds.
    Kaalia Verk avatar by Rauthiss.


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    Default Re: Beguiler help

    Skill Focus: Concentration is better than Combat Casting. You get +3 all the time, as opposed to +4 some of the time. But I'd probably focus on the feats that jack your save DCs & secondary effects, like unsettling enchantment.
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    Default Re: Beguiler help

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever Curious View Post
    For great annoyance, you can go Sacred Vow (1st Human), Vow of Nonviolence (1st), and Vow of Peace (3rd) all from Book of Exalted Deeds, netting you a +4 DC to ALL your spells (due to none of them causing lethal damage), a constant aura of calm emotions, and weapons that attack you breaking on a failed save. Unfortunately it has a nasty drawback of imposing penalties on you and your party for killing things unless you give them a chance to surrender and you losing the feats permanently if you let someone die/deal lethal damage. Consult with your DM, but these feats are amazing for Illusion and Enchantment caster builds.
    Also consult your co-players, because the feats essentially forces you to police them and apply penalties on them (and if one of them wants to be a barbarian, the constant calm emotions puts a bit of a damper on her).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.
    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
    Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Beguiler help

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Also consult your co-players, because the feats essentially forces you to police them and apply penalties on them (and if one of them wants to be a barbarian, the constant calm emotions puts a bit of a damper on her).
    Yes, that surely won't work, I find all those Vows pretty overpowered anyway.

    Skill Focus: Concentration is better than Combat Casting. You get +3 all the time, as opposed to +4 some of the time. But I'd probably focus on the feats that jack your save DCs & secondary effects, like unsettling enchantment.
    I heard that before, but isn't concentration used mostly when casting defensively anyway?

    Even if the DM disallows Versatile Spellcaster getting you access to spells you can't normally cast, the ability to burn two level 0 spells for a level 1, or 2 level 1 spells for a level 2, is still mighty handy.

    Another handy feat (maybe for later in your career) is Song of the Dead (Dragon Magazine Compendium, if that's available) - lets your mind affecting spells affect intelligent undead, for a +1 level metamagic.
    Oh i completely agree the Versatile Spellcaster feat is worth it, and its certainly on my list of things I want, together with Unsettling enchantment.
    Now I just need to decide which 3 feats I keep.
    Spell Focus Enchantment, Unsettling Enchantment, Spell focus (Illusion) most likely, and get Versatile Caster at level 6

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    Default Re: Beguiler help

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    I heard that before, but isn't concentration used mostly when casting defensively anyway?
    Depends on the DM's style, mostly. Concentration has quite a few other uses, but whether they will be relevant really depends on when the DM remembers to require them. Given that the difference is just one point, but the other always applies, I'd go with Skill Focus if I had to choose just between them.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2010-08-25 at 06:27 PM.
    Quotes:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.
    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
    Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.

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