[3.5] Arcane PrC with good skills/level

[Thurbane]

Hi all,

Looking for full (or close to full) arcane casting progression PrCs with a good amount of skill points per level. I know of a couple with 4 (Loremaster etc.) but can anyone think of any with 6, or maybe even 8?

For base classes there is Beguiler & Bard, each with 6.

Cheers - T

[kestrel404]

Unseen seer. It's got 6 and full casting, and entry is just skills (mostly CC for wizard, but lots IC for bard or beguiler).

[Fax Celestis]

Lyric Thaumaturge is 6+Int, I think.

[Greenish]

The urban something from Cityscape (man, I suck with names).

[Edit]: Urban Savant, 6+int, 9/10 casting and loses the last level which can be skipped.

[Eldariel]

Lyric Thaumaturge is 6+Int, I think.

4+Int. One of the major reasons I find the whole class a bit poor compared to straight Bard/SC. Virtuoso is 6+Int tho, but loses casting on the first level.

[JoshuaZ]

Hi all,

Looking for full (or close to full) arcane casting progression PrCs with a good amount of skill points per level. I know of a couple with 4 (Loremaster etc.) but can anyone think of any with 6, or maybe even 8?

For base classes there is Beguiler & Bard, each with 6.

Cheers - T

Keeper of the Cerulean Sign from Lords of Madness has full progression with 6 + int.

[Andion Isurand]

If you use the Bardic Knack variant from PH2, the loremaster can outweigh other classes for effective skills.

[Thurbane]

Great suggestions all.

I like Unseen Seer...I'd feel obliged to take a level of Rogue to take advantage of the Sneak Attack progression, though. Is there any relatively easy way to get Sneak Attack (say, for a Beguiler, or Sorcerer) without giving up caster levels? I'm not that familiar with ToB, but I believe there is a stance that gives 1d6 SA...would this stack with the US advancement?

[Greenish]

Great suggestions all.

I like Unseen Seer...I'd feel obliged to take a level of Rogue to take advantage of the Sneak Attack progression, though. Is there any relatively easy way to get Sneak Attack (say, for a Beguiler, or Sorcerer) without giving up caster levels? I'm not that familiar with ToB, but I believe there is a stance that gives 1d6 SA...would this stack with the US advancement?

Assassin's Stance is 2d6 SA, and should count for US.

Requires level 10 though.

[DragoonWraith]

There is a 3rd level Stance to get +2d6 Sneak Attack. In order to take it, you need one other Shadow Hand maneuver (there's a 2nd level short-range Shadow Walk-like maneuver that might be worthwhile to a caster), and you need an Initiator Level of 5, which means if you have no Adept class levels, you need ECL 10. That'll delay your start into Unseen Seer quite badly, unless (I don't have it in front of me and can't check) you can take US levels, then get the feat to "turn on" the Sneak Attack.

I'm not sure 2 feats and waiting 5 levels is worth 1 spellcasting level.

[Thurbane]

Maybe if I have to give up a caster level, take a level of Spellthief, then the Master Spellthief feat.

At the moment I'm leaning towards Spellthief 1/Beguiler 4/Unseen Seer X.

[kestrel404]

Unless you can find a way to externally raise Spellthief's caster level (ioun stones, feats, etc.), the Master Spellthief feat will do you no good. Starting spellthief caster level is 0 until they get spells.

[Greenish]

Unless you can find a way to externally raise Spellthief's caster level (ioun stones, feats, etc.), the Master Spellthief feat will do you no good. Starting spellthief caster level is 0 until they get spells.

Well, "no good" isn't really what I'd say. Master Spellthief allows you to ignore light armour's ASF, and sets your CL to your level in arcane casting classes, which bypasses US's penalty on non-divination spell CL.

[PId6]

Rogue 1/Arcane 4/Unseen Seer 10/Anything 5 is a pretty good build. Unseen Seer is one of my favorite PrCs, and it's quite powerful if used correctly. Human with Able Learner is the best race entry, and Practiced Spellcaster deals with the lost rogue CL as well as the lost CL from Divination Spell Power. Make sure to pick up Hunter's Eye (PHB2) as an Advanced Learning spell.

[gallagher]

Maybe if I have to give up a caster level, take a level of Spellthief, then the Master Spellthief feat.

At the moment I'm leaning towards Spellthief 1/Beguiler 4/Unseen Seer X.

switch beguiler for sorceror. take advantage of a better spell list and have at least 14 INT for your skills. it also will help if you take levels of spellwarp sniper so you can deal sneak attack with touch spells

[Keld Denar]

Isn't Ruather 6 skillpoints/level on top of being full casting, 2/3 BAB, full casting, 2 good saves, free proficiences (go go AbjChamp) and a bunch of garbage about dancing around with fairies?

[Frosty]

I thought it's 4 points per level? I am away from books right now though...

[Adumbration]

I thought it's 4 points per level? I am away from books right now though...

Jeah, just checked it. 4+int modifier.

[olentu]

Well, "no good" isn't really what I'd say. Master Spellthief allows you to ignore light armour's ASF, and sets your CL to your level in arcane casting classes, which bypasses US's penalty on non-divination spell CL.

I believe it just stacks with arcane casting classes for caster level. If this is so then as stacked is not set it does not do such a thing.

[Greenish]

I believe it just stacks with arcane casting classes for caster level. If this is so then as stacked is not set it does not do such a thing.

"Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."

You use your arcane caster levels to determine your caster level, instead of your normal caster level, so neatly avoiding the penalty from US. It works, and isn't much different from using Practiced Spellcaster.

[Tyndmyr]

The urban something from Cityscape (man, I suck with names).

[Edit]: Urban Savant, 6+int, 9/10 casting and loses the last level which can be skipped.

This one. It's actually slightly better than it appears, as it gives you bonuses to a few skills. It's one of the better ways to become a highly skilled arcanist.

[ErrantX]

Maybe if I have to give up a caster level, take a level of Spellthief, then the Master Spellthief feat.

At the moment I'm leaning towards Spellthief 1/Beguiler 4/Unseen Seer X.

Good choice. Master Spellthief combined with these classes is pretty much king. Consider Arcane Trickster at top tier for continued skill, spell, and sneak attack progression.

switch beguiler for sorceror. take advantage of a better spell list and have at least 14 INT for your skills. it also will help if you take levels of spellwarp sniper so you can deal sneak attack with touch spells

Eh... that's not necessarily always the case for being a better choice. It depends mostly on what you're trying to accomplish. Sorcerer is best for being a bit more utilitarian and choosing the best possible spells for your specific design, but you're a bit more MAD and you have the problem of cross class skills in sorcerer. Beguiler gets all the skills you need in in class, as well as having Int based casting which is going to net you a ton more skill points anyway, plus trapfinding (neatly filling a role as party trapfinder and skill monkey) and a few other useful low level class features. With Unseen Seer, I often am torn between Wizard or Beguiler.

-X

[Keld Denar]

Wizard or Beguiler

The only issue with this is that the Arcane Rogue archtype generally flourishes on using RTA spells to apply Sneak Attack. Beguiler gets no RTAs, and only a could of touches. They also lack a lot of the good Gishy buffs (other than Illusions like Greater Mirror ImagE) that keep your behind safe while trying to use melee as a method of delivering your SA. Sorcerer or Wizard would give you access to the amazing Cloud of Knives spell for 1 ranged sneak per round for free for the rest of the fight. It also has all of those nice Orb spells and Lesser Orb spells that are delicious for delivering SA hell, and the Whirling Blade spell so you can deliver SA to each foe in a line.

Lots of good stuff there that Beguiler's just don't get. Plus, with Wizard as a base, you should have a GREAT Int score, so you should be able, with Able Learner, to keep up nearly all of the skills you really need to.

[Fax Celestis]

I prefer Sorc 6/Spellthief 1/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Unseen Seer 8 myself.

[Thurbane]

If you are a Beguiler with Sneak Attack, you could always UMD a Wand of Acid Splash and use it out to 30-ft, although that precludes flanking.

[Frosty]

Eccletic Learning? Or Advanced Learning for Ray of Stupidity? That'll get you a ranged touch attack.

[olentu]

"Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."

You use your arcane caster levels to determine your caster level, instead of your normal caster level, so neatly avoiding the penalty from US. It works, and isn't much different from using Practiced Spellcaster.

Er no that just means that your spellthief and arcane caster levels stack. There is no setting involved any more then there would be setting when you you use your insert applicable caster levels here to determine your caster level.

Edit: Or perhaps that is what you mean and your argument is that it is impossible to ever apply a penalty to caster level. I do not believe that is what you mean but it does seem to be what you are saying. So clearly in some way I am misunderstanding just what your argument actually is.

[Greenish]

Er no that just means that your spellthief and arcane caster levels stack. There is no setting involved any more then there would be setting when you you use your insert applicable caster levels here to determine your caster level.

Edit: Or perhaps that is what you mean and your argument is that it is impossible to ever apply a penalty to caster level. I do not believe that is what you mean but it does seem to be what you are saying. So clearly in some way I am misunderstanding just what your argument actually is.

My argument is that with Master Spellthief, you use your arcane caster level + your spellthief level as your caster level for all arcane spells you cast. US applies -3 penalty to your CL for non-divination spells, but you get to apply such things in the order that's most beneficial to you, so you take the -3 penalty to your normal CL, then use your arcane caster level as your CL.

[Edit]: So in the end, you achieve about the same as rogue/caster/US does with Practiced Spellcaster, though you get less skillpoints but can ignore ASF in light armour.

[Keld Denar]

You generally apply things in the order that is most advantageous. In this case, when adding up your CL for a ST1/Wizard4/USS10, you would:

Add up your spellcasting levels: 14
this is your normal CL.
Apply -3 penalty for USS: 11
Apply Master Spelltheif: CL = 1 +4 +10 = 15

And when you figure out your Divination CL, you do this:
Add up your spellcasting levels: 14
this is your normal CL.
Apply Master Spelltheif: 1 +4 +10 = 15
Apply +3 for USS: 15 +3 = 18

Make sense?

[olentu]

No that makes no sense since that is again setting not stacking. Anything done with the combined levels must have just as easily been able to be done by just the levels in the class so unless you are saying that all casters can choose to calculate caster level like this.

-all penalties
caster level is set to the number of levels in the class (or the stacked class levels + spellthief)
+all bonuses

Making it impossible for a caster level to ever be reduced except voluntarily then I must say that your argument seems inconsistent to me.