AC Irks Me [3.PF, 'specially Swordsage]

[Esser-Z]

I find it very, very irksome that AC always ends up outclassed. I want to build a Swordsage who can (A) dodge things and (B) use stances other than Child of Shadow. On paper, it looks like it can be done pretty well--chainshirt, decent wis, decent dex. But, with just a little thought in, no, it's not going to work out. The AC will fall behind. I love the flavor of Pearl of Black Doubt... but the stance winds up being pretty bad.

It's very, very frustrating. I want to dodge. But it seems the only way to do so is to rely on equipment (concealment granting armor bonuses, and such) or get access to spells. The latter doesn't fit the character and the former isn't so accessible at the level 5 the game I'm trying to plan for plays at. Grarg.

This is part rant and part plea for anything I missed.


(It doesn't help that the character I'm rebuilding uses a greatsword. In her previous game it worked out because the DM was insanely loot heavy, but....)

[FMArthur]

Pearl of Black Doubt is great if you wade through a pile of enemies on your turn to collect AoOs before your attack, with Mobility, enhanced armor, and yes, miss chances. It's also significantly better on a Crusader or even a Knight than on a Swordsage, because they make it difficult for the enemy not to attack them and often gain things when they are attacked. It's good for tanks.

It's still mostly just good for opposing humanoid enemies. If you're playing at the level where D&D falls apart (15+) and against big monsters with stupidly large stats, then Pearl of Black Doubt does suck, and that's pretty much the end of it. It's frustrating but there is really no solution at that level if you want to be super-evasive without just being undetectable. Kill or be killed.

[Techsmart]

potions can help, since they technically don't require spellcasting on the PC's part. This actually helped me a lot with my githzerai monk. Our 3-man lvl 3 party (me a lvl 1 monk) fought 2 owlbears, and after chugging a potion of mage armor, my 29 AC could only be broken by a natural 20 attack roll (note, The DM kinda pissed me off with some prior actions, including 2 TPKs, and didn't expect something like that).
Maybe look into feats that help improve ac, or get stat-boosting items. I would also look into special materials that allow for better armors with less drawback. For example, one of my first actions with any "light armor" character is to get a mithral chain shirt, since it offers a higher AC bonus than leather, with all the benefits of leather.
From what I've seen, AC is usually not going to grow in line with the AC of an individual creature of the same CR as the character, and I think part of this is because, as levels go up, you shouldn't expect to fight 4-on-1 with as many creatures, and instead usually do 4-on-4 battles, or something with more creatures. usually things that provide concealment or something of the sort are better in many cases anyways, since it is a flat 50%, reguardless of what is thrown at you.

[HunterOfJello]

AC is one of the obvious problems in 3.5e since it doesn't scale well compared to Attack bonuses. Characters who use heavy armor will have their AC scale somewhat as they approach level 5 and can finally afford Full Plate's +8 AC bonus. However, other classes aren't so lucky.


If you spend a feat (or take a level of warblade) you could grab Wall of Blades from the Iron Heart school. Its a counter that lets you use an attack roll instead of AC against an attack.

Your options consist of grabing feats, magical items or levels in another class really.

edit: oh, and templates like Feral or Mineral Warrior help too

[Esser-Z]

Pearl of Black Doubt is great if you wade through a pile of enemies on your turn to collect AoOs before your attack, with Mobility, enhanced armor, and yes, miss chances. It's also significantly better on a Crusader or even a Knight than on a Swordsage, because they make it difficult for the enemy not to attack them and often gain things when they are attacked. It's good for tanks.

I actually ran with that strategy with a previous iteration of this character--worked pretty well, but the DM had given absurd amounts of loot. Level 10, I had several +6 stats and nice armor and weapons and other slot items.

I suspect I am overestimating level 5 attack rolls. I may indeed be able to get something out of AC, for now. Hmm. 10,500 gp rather limits what I can get for stat ups...

Could dip in the Beta Psychic warrior if the DM lets me--take the wisdom-to-AC-and-saves-when-in-trance ability (I note that my group has replaced Concentration with Autohypnosis for PF Diamond Mind), though that feels a wee bit cheesy... And I'd rather not lose the level 3 maneuvers at stat. :|

I'm not helped by my own reluctance to give up on using a greatsword, heh. Switching to finesse would let me put more points into wis/dex, but... It's kinda become integral to the character.

[Tequila Sunrise]

I find it very, very irksome that AC always ends up outclassed.

I feel your angst, man. When I played 3e regularly, it bothered me that high level AC isn't supposed to actually prevent hits -- it's just supposed to prevent the bad guys from all-out power attacking.

[Esser-Z]

Actually, hm, I should look up some reasonable level 5 era bonuses. Check if AC's been outscaled yet*, heh.

EDIT: Hm. 16 in dex and wis at 5, pre magic item (also 16 str. 22 pathfinder PB, with a +1 to two different at 4,8 etc rule and the human +2.). 4 from chain shirt, can reinforce** and magic it to get up to +6. That's 22 there. A +2 wis item, maybe... 23, 24 with dodge. Could go up to 25 if I spent the rest of my stuff on a +dex item, but I'd like to go for str because I really like the big sword. Switching down to a rapier or something and grabbing finesse would let me get higher dex, but...






*I have a tendency to plan much farther ahead than games ever get
**Old Dragon supplement thing. 1000gp to increase armor bonus by one. Basically magic that stacks with a +1 magic. :D

[Eldariel]

Swordsage's AC doesn't get outscaled pretty much ever if you go Dex- or Wis-focus. Outside slightly more heavy optimization, you should be able to reach mid-50s by 20, which tends to be enough to at least have decent protection and it starts off really nicely.

But yeah, high Dex, high Wis, Chain Shirt > Mithril Breast Plate > Mithril Chain Shirt > Celestial Armor and max Wis preferably ('cause it's uncapped) and you should be fine.

[Esser-Z]

Basically, I need to drop str, yeah. That'd fix my problem. It'd be plenty effective, thanks to all the nice SS damage boosts, but...

I think I'll try to con my DM into a finesse-able greatsword. An extra d6 of damage isn't much. <.<

[Boci]

*tries to con his DM into a finessable greatsword*

Reflavoured spiked chain?

[Greenish]

*tries to con his DM into a finessable greatsword*

Elven Courtblade. It's d12, 18-20/x2, finessable 2-hander if my memory serves. It does cost yet another feat for EWP.

[Edit]: It's from Races of the Wild and counts as a greatsword for feats such as Weapon Focus. (Might get the swordsage one on it too.)

[Esser-Z]

That or just use an Elven Curve Blade, as it's a PF core finesse twohander. I was hoping to avoid using an exotic weapon, because Master of Nine, my planned goal, is a feat tax enough itself.... Under 3.5 progression. It's a lot better in PF, and Adaptive Style is a must anyway. Dodge and Improved init both help me, I do like having imp. unarmed for flavor, just leaving blind-fight as a tax. Ohoho.

Elven Court Blade sounds like the way to go!

I'm still horribly tempted by the dip into Psychic Warrior... But that's silly. Not only kinda cheese, but I lose a stance and access to anything level 3. On the other hand, bonus feat, a single power, +2 fort, +1 BaB, extra wis to AC... Hrm. I'll see if it's allowable before I decide.

[demidracolich]

Elven courtblade is actually a 1d10 damage 18-20/x2 exotic weapon.

[Esser-Z]

1d10? Exactly the same as Curve then. Okay.

Doing some quick math. 18 in dex and wis, maybe 20 in one of them if I buy an 18, 6 from armor as before, one dodge... 25 or 26. Would be upped to 29 or 31 if I took the dip, possible 30 or 32 if I took psionic dodge... but I don't think that's a worthwhile trade for my level 3 stuff. Also it reeks of cheese.

[Elfin]

Are you sure you want to go Master of Nine? It's a very cool class, flavor-wise, but swordsage does the job just as well - and without the heavy feat tax.
Double kukris would work well for finessing, but if you skip Mo9 an elven courtblade would be more viable, since it wouldn't suck up one of the few feats you have left...

Actually, what I'd recommend you do for the courtblade is pick up EWP and take a level of Warblade - Weapon Aptitude will let you make full use of EWP by allowing you to switch the weapon it applies to whenever you want, and you can pick up the Wall of Blades counter mentioned above to help your dodging concept.

[Another_Poet]

This may be obvious but I hope you are stacking a pile of small bonuses right? At level 5 you can afford a +1 amulet of nat armour (2000gp), a +1 ring of protecn (2000 gp), a command-word activated wondrous item of Shield (1800 gp unlimited use - or 1260 gp if it is only usable by someone of your alignment). Drop one of those if you like and pick up a wondrous item of +1 Dodge bonus for just 2500 gp. Dodge bonuses stack with each other so party on with the Dodge feat too. With just 3 of those 4 items you are at +6 AC and have only used half of your WBL.

I assume this is on top of cheap +1 armour. Add a potion of haste every now and again for another dodge bonus that stacks with the others.

For 8,000 gp you can also have a Defending weapon. So start saving for level 6 or so.

So with 3 of the 4 items, the potion, the armour, and no special weapon properties yet you should be at:

10 + 4 dex + 4 wis + 5 (+1 light armour) + 4 shield + 1 deflection + 1 natural armour + 3 dodge (item, haste, feat) = 33 AC.

If that's not enough at level 5 then I really don't know what to say to your DM except "Dude."

Aside from the defending weapon, think about command-word or continuous-use items of other spells e.g. shield of faith, cat's grace, owl's wisdom, barkskin, etc. We haven't even talked about miss chances yet. Or damage resistance (item of continuous protection from arrows and/or resist energy).

Remember that the Shield spell item also makes you immune to magic missiles, which your DM will probably forget about half the time, giving plenty of chances to laugh at him/her.

Really, if AC can't keep up with attack rolls something is wrong. AC is priced at half the cost of to-hit. There are as many or more defensive spells as there are attack-roll-boosting spells.

And there's always the "add x to y" thread to see what other stats you can throw at AC. Nothing like adding your charisma to your AC against AoOs or some crazy crap to really feel like you own the battlemat.

[Esser-Z]

Aha, there we go. I'll admit, my magic-item-fu is a bit rusty. Last couple characters have been a Wizard, Paladin, and PF Cavalier, none of which needed AC itemization.

[Boci]

Elven Court Blade sounds like the way to go!

Fey craft will save you a feat at the cost of 1 point of damage and some gp. Its from the DMG II. I take it then you aren't planning on usaing shadow blade for dex to damage?

[Zaydos]

This may be obvious but I hope you are stacking a pile of small bonuses right? At level 5 you can afford a +1 amulet of nat armour (2000gp), a +1 ring of protecn (200 gp), a command-word activated wondrous item of Shield (1800 gp unlimited use - or 1260 gp if it is only usable by someone of your alignment). Drop one of those if you like and pick up a wondrous item of +1 Dodge bonus for just 2500 gp. Dodge bonuses stack with each other so party on with the Dodge feat too. With just 3 of those 4 items you are at +6 AC and have only used half of your WBL.

I assume this is on top of cheap +1 armour. Add a potion of haste every now and again for another dodge bonus that stacks with the others.

For 8,000 gp you can also have a Defending weapon. So start saving for level 6 or so.

So with 3 of the 4 items, the potion, the armour, and no special weapon properties yet you should be at:

10 + 4 dex + 4 wis + 5 (+1 light armour) + 4 shield + 1 deflection + 1 natural armour + 3 dodge (item, haste, feat) = 33 AC.

If that's not enough at level 5 then I really don't know what to say to your DM except "Dude."

Aside from the defending weapon, think about command-word or continuous-use items of other spells e.g. shield of faith, cat's grace, owl's wisdom, barkskin, etc. We haven't even talked about miss chances yet. Or damage resistance (item of continuous protection from arrows and/or resist energy).

Remember that the Shield spell item also makes you immune to magic missiles, which your DM will probably forget about half the time, giving plenty of chances to laugh at him/her.

Really, if AC can't keep up with attack rolls something is wrong. AC is priced at half the cost of to-hit. There are as many or more defensive spells as there are attack-roll-boosting spells.

And there's always the "add x to y" thread to see what other stats you can throw at AC. Nothing like adding your charisma to your AC against AoOs or some crazy crap to really feel like you own the battlemat.

Problem is how many DMs will allow that shield item? Even the guidelines say that it should cost 1800 x 2 (because it has a 1 minute/level duration) and possibly be reduced by alignment (if the DM will let you). They also say that if there is a specific price already for the bonus the spell grants then go with that. Which would make it 16000 for a +4 shield bonus.

[Greenish]

Custom magical items (such as the aforementioned at-will shield) are a bit iffy. The guidelines for pricing items lead to some crazy stuff if you're allowed to create any custom items.

[Edit]: Swordsage'd.

[Esser-Z]

Fey craft will save you a feat at the cost of 1 point of damage and some gp. Its from the DMG II. I take it then you aren't planning on usaing shadow blade for dex to damage?

I would, but it requires Shadow Hand weapons which... aren't what I'd like to use.

As for the custom item...the only other melee class is another swordsage, so I think I can squeeze through on the grounds of 'dude, we need *somebody* to be able to defend'.

(The others are all casters, but Tier3ville, so it's all good)

[Boci]

I would, but it requires Shadow Hand weapons which... aren't what I'd like to use.

Thats why I recommended a refluffed spiked chain.

[Esser-Z]

Thanks for all the assistance. I'm annoyed by the reliance on items, but that's melee for you.

And even as I complete that, I note the PF Metoer Hammer is apparently a d10/d10 double weapon with reach and trip and 19-20/x2 and am suddenly drawn to TWF, probably with Warblade. XD

[klemdakherzbag]

Isn't a pathfinder elf be a better choice with the elven curve blade, you wouldn't need to burn a feat, plus a bonus to Dex

[Zaydos]

Thanks for all the assistance. I'm annoyed by the reliance on items, but that's melee for you.

And even as I complete that, I note the PF Metoer Hammer is apparently a d10/d10 double weapon with reach and trip and 19-20/x2 and am suddenly drawn to TWF, probably with Warblade. XD

You don't actually need the custom shield item. A CR 5 red dragon only has a +14 to hit in melee (and dragons tend to have within 1 or 2 points of the best attack bonus for their CR... sometimes the best by 1 or 2 levels). Even without the shield item you have 29 AC (it needs a 15) which is very respectable at Lv 5. Getting a 33 just means the DM has to either find a way around AC entirely, or really optimize monster attacks to compensate. When the monster still has a 15% to 25% chance of hitting you the DM can let it just wail on you, but once it needs a nat 20 they're going to find a way to make you hurt.

[Loren]

for a Shadow Hand, that feat that adds your dex to damage is very useful, but you need to be using a Shadow Hand weapon. What I convinced my DM to do was drop my proficiency in martial weapons in exchange for proficiency in Shadow Hand weapons. Thus, I had profieincy and weapon focus for a spkied chain. Got finesse, then shadow blade and was off to the races.

-At level five you shouldn't be too worried about AC not scaling, many other class (ex rogue) have the same issues as you without the Wis bonus and they make it just fine.
-dex is the new strength. Yes it sucks that you need to invest feats, but Tome of Battle is not an autowin. Just remeber that your still way ahead of your core peers.
-remember your role, which is striker not tank. Swordsages can dish out alot of damage, but they don't work well in straigh up fights. You need to use party mate, cover, etc maximize your likelihood of connecting (note the lak of full BAB)
-have fun, it's just a game. No, you won't be superman, but you can be an acceptible Spiderman, if you need to be the hottest thing at the table... CoDzilla.
--------
edit
going over my notes,
enchantments
-Shield, if you get a limited number of uses per day or command word you can get it much cheaper
-protection against evil, lots of nice little riders and put it on the same command word as above
-shield of faith (deflect) and entopic shield (vs ranged) could be useful
-later on get mirror image, it's a great way to cut down on attacks against you

[Snake-Aes]

A little thing on ac scaling that people usually miss:
The game was never designed around having you fight only level appropriate encounters. The game flows incredibly faster and easier if most of the challenges are a level or two behind, the tough ones appropriate, and the big bads being the ones actually over your level. It's less rocket tag, ac gains importance, old abilities remain useful longer, most combats are faster, your characters get to pull stunts for the lulz, the big bads won't necessarily risk killing half the party in one round...


Tons of ways to boost your ac were given. I cannot add to that.

[Esser-Z]

Yeah, I was misvalueing based on previous experience. Like I said, I'd not done a noncaster/tank for a bit, now. I misremembered when AC becomes useless. I tend to think too far ahead, instead of realizing that we likely won't even get passed 10.

As for remembering my role... "I have lots of HP" is not the only way to tank. I get a bonus to AC, a significant one. In theory, it should be perfectly possible to dodgetank, too. It's an established archetype--the skilled swordfighter who just is never where the foe's weapons are.

I guess now my biggest irk at the Levels We Actually Play is more the need for magic items to get my score where I want it, but that's a symptom of every non caster, and not just AC.

The biggest irony is that I'm now tempted to switch to a Warblade, either wielding a meteor hammer or two-bladed sword.

(Also, it's nice to be back in the playground)

[FelixG]

Have you considered a warforged character? can use a feat to get the +8 armor skin that can be enchanted like armor but as far as i know it doesn't hurt a sword sages other abilities?

[Zaydos]

Have you considered a warforged character? can use a feat to get the +8 armor skin that can be enchanted like armor but as far as i know it doesn't hurt a sword sages other abilities?

Adamantine Skin counts as wearing heavy armor for class features.