[4e] need 5 optimized builds

[Guinea Anubis]

My friend is playing in a game with 4 other. They just got there butts kicked by a phalanxes of goblins using long spears and god forbid tatctics and terain to there advantage. From what my friend it sounds like the DM was just playing the goblins smart and they did not play there characters smart, but my friend thinks the DM was being to hard on them that they need better characters.

So I said I would help and make them and try and make them 5 optimized characters. Then when they die again I will try and show them they need to play smarter.

So what 5 optimized builds would you guys recommended?

[Fallbot]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...er_Build_Links

Lots of optimization advice here, hope it helps

[Yora]

I don't think this works. Using pre-build high-powered characters will not cause the DM to suddenly be nicer. He'll probably just make the enemies stronger.

[Kurald Galain]

What level?

A standard suggestion are

• Twinstrike archer ranger.
• Stunlock orbizard
• Taclord
• If more than three characters, add more rangers.

Aside from that, having everybody take a divine class and go Radiant Mafia can send your damage output to ridiculous levels.

[dsmiles]

What level?

A standard suggestion are

• Twinstrike archer ranger.
• Stunlock orbizard
• Taclord
• If more than three characters, add more rangers.

Aside from that, having everybody take a divine class and go Radiant Mafia can send your damage output to ridiculous levels.

Or if third party content and firearms are "in play," instead of adding more rangers, add a Gun Mage or two.

[Meta]

My friend is playing in a game with 4 other. They just got there butts kicked by a phalanxes of goblins using long spears and god forbid tatctics and terain to there advantage. From what my friend it sounds like the DM was just playing the goblins smart and they did not play there characters smart, but my friend thinks the DM was being to hard on them that they need better characters.

So I said I would help and make them and try and make them 5 optimized characters. Then when they die again I will try and show them they need to play smarter.

So what 5 optimized builds would you guys recommended?

Ranger is probably the best striker but the archer ranger is pretty much the easiest class in the game and many people find it not very exciting.

A good combination of fun and power would be something like this I think

Deva Avenger aiming for soul of the world eventually cuz its awesome rollplay and roleplay. Also pretty easy to have 13+ healing surges, 50+ defenses and 100+ DPR in epic.

Tiefling Paladin's are unique and have really cool feats and backstory. Many ways to mark opponents and some healing is fun. You could even hybrid warlock very effectively.

A Summoner Druid (something con/wis preferable) is devastating. He can nova for 1000+ damage EASY in epic tier and is extremely useful even at lvl 1.

A cunning bard is not the most obvious powerhouse of a leader (taclord is great but debuff clerics are also wayyy nasty) but he/she is very versatile. Tieflings are good at it, and I think eladrin have new stats that would make them sexy bards? Either way a bard is effective if not astounding at everything a leader should do. Plus bards are awesome fun.

Melee Sorcerer|Paladin would be a fun fifth. Can be made pretty darn useful and just cool. Or you could go for broke and play a melee ranger.

This lineup gives you amazing nova, control, dpr, healing, resilience and skill selection. Mobility is prob the only thing it's only above average in, and you can bump that too, with some good selections. Also you have a character with a high stat in each str con dex wis int cha.

[Guinea Anubis]

I don't think this works. Using pre-build high-powered characters will not cause the DM to suddenly be nicer. He'll probably just make the enemies stronger.

I don't think this will help at all. I think they will all die again and when my friend comes to me to whine I am hoping to show him what he did wrong and maybe teach him to play smarter.

From what I can tell the DM was being fair. He told them (with an NPC) that the goblins where oddly militaristic. when the party found them the ran in to a cave and form a phalanxes. There was 10 level 1 goblins with long spears and heave shields in two rows of 5 so the ones in the back could still attack, and in the cave the PCs could not get around them.

From what I can tell it was almost all the PCs own doing that they failed. The run right in took AOs from the first line of goblins then just got ripped apart since one guy would get 6 attack until he was at 0 hp or lower.

There party make up also sucked they had a Tempest Fighter, A Melee Druid, A Barbarian, a Rogue, and last a Warlord. A real lack of range there don't you think.

What level?

A standard suggestion are

• Twinstrike archer ranger.
• Stunlock orbizard
• Taclord
• If more than three characters, add more rangers.

Aside from that, having everybody take a divine class and go Radiant Mafia can send your damage output to ridiculous levels.

They are starting at level 3 I am thinking what the heck give them a divine them and make them all worshipers of Pelor. I am thinking a Paladin for a defender, Avenger for a striker, Invoker for a controller, Cleric for the leader, and it does not really fit with the divine theme a Ranger for some range.

[dsmiles]

I don't think this will help at all. I think they will all die again and when my friend comes to me to whine I am hoping to show him what he did wrong and maybe teach him to play smarter.

From what I can tell the DM was being fair. He told them (with an NPC) that the goblins where oddly militaristic. when the party found them the ran in to a cave and form a phalanxes. There was 10 level 1 goblins with long spears and heave shields in two rows of 5 so the ones in the back could still attack, and in the cave the PCs could not get around them.

From what I can tell it was almost all the PCs own doing that they failed. The run right in took AOs from the first line of goblins then just got ripped apart since one guy would get 6 attack until he was at 0 hp or lower.

There party make up also sucked they had a Tempest Fighter, A Melee Druid, A Barbarian, a Rogue, and last a Warlord. A real lack of range there don't you think.



They are starting at level 3 I am thinking what the heck give them a divine them and make them all worshipers of Pelor. I am thinking a Paladin for a defender, Avenger for a striker, Invoker for a controller, Cleric for the leader, and it does not really fit with the divine theme a Ranger for some range.

The only decent strikers, IMO, are non-divine anyways.

[BobTheDog]

The only decent strikers, IMO, are non-divine anyways.

This has got to be the second most creative way to say "avengers suck" I've ever seen.

Edit: for Monkey Island purposes.

[dsmiles]

This has got to be the second most creative way to say "avengers suck" I've ever seen.

Edit: for Monkey Island purposes.

To be honest with you, I like the Thief Rogue, the Warlock, B.T.'s Bun Mage, and B.T.'s Gunslinger as my personal favorites in the striker role. Artificer and Cleric are my favorite leaders, Fighter is my favorite defender, and the Bodger and Wizard are my favorite controllers. (Obviously, I play strikers more often than not.)

[Meta]

The only decent strikers, IMO, are non-divine anyways.

Deva Avenger MC Monk/Any PP (soulforged or favored soul?)/Soul of the World. Not a broken hero, but I'd say 14+ surges, 50-ish defenses and 150+ DPR is a pretty solid striker. you can def squeeze some nova into there too

[Vitruviansquid]

I don't think this will help at all. I think they will all die again and when my friend comes to me to whine I am hoping to show him what he did wrong and maybe teach him to play smarter.

From what I can tell the DM was being fair. He told them (with an NPC) that the goblins where oddly militaristic. when the party found them the ran in to a cave and form a phalanxes. There was 10 level 1 goblins with long spears and heave shields in two rows of 5 so the ones in the back could still attack, and in the cave the PCs could not get around them.

From what I can tell it was almost all the PCs own doing that they failed. The run right in took AOs from the first line of goblins then just got ripped apart since one guy would get 6 attack until he was at 0 hp or lower.

There party make up also sucked they had a Tempest Fighter, A Melee Druid, A Barbarian, a Rogue, and last a Warlord. A real lack of range there don't you think.

How did the players take AO's to run into the goblins? The only possible way that could have happened was if the goblins had Threatening Reach, which I wasn't aware the Goblin Warrior, the only level 1 goblin with a spear, had.

So you're telling me this group was poorly optimized/played when, in fact, they were given a "hard" encounter (1000xp puts it at a level 5 encounter for 5 characters), made even harder with terrain advantage, and on top of that, the monsters were homebrewed?

[kyoryu]

How did the players take AO's to run into the goblins? The only possible way that could have happened was if the goblins had Threatening Reach, which I wasn't aware the Goblin Warrior, the only level 1 goblin with a spear, had.

So you're telling me this group was poorly optimized/played when, in fact, they were given a "hard" encounter (1000xp puts it at a level 5 encounter for 5 characters), made even harder with terrain advantage, and on top of that, the monsters were homebrewed?

... and the players sound like they're relatively new to the system as well.

[Ihouji]

I don't think this will help at all. I think they will all die again and when my friend comes to me to whine I am hoping to show him what he did wrong and maybe teach him to play smarter.

From what I can tell the DM was being fair. He told them (with an NPC) that the goblins where oddly militaristic. when the party found them the ran in to a cave and form a phalanxes. There was 10 level 1 goblins with long spears and heave shields in two rows of 5 so the ones in the back could still attack, and in the cave the PCs could not get around them.

From what I can tell it was almost all the PCs own doing that they failed. The run right in took AOs from the first line of goblins then just got ripped apart since one guy would get 6 attack until he was at 0 hp or lower.

Yeah you can't help people trying to fight a phalanx on the enemies terms with melee (see history for details). Sounds to me like they got them selves killed not the GMs fault. They don't really need optimized so much as you should have at least 1-2 ranged people in the party at all times. The GM should probably tone down the tactics though if the party is running headlong into unflankable phalanxes; nothing can really survive that but a few well placed fire balls will kill moral (as well as a few enemies) and scatter formations real fast.

Edit : By fire ball I more or less am just referring to any high damage ranged AoE fire ball in 4e is blah at best.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Two things

- This was already covered, but unless this is some 3e/4e hybrid, you threaten like that in non-adjacent squares, even with reach. Sounds like the DM actually wasn't being fair. More importantly, though...

- Every character who has the carrying capacity should carry a ranged weapon. This goes without saying. They should have just pot shotted that broken homebrew phalanx until the goblins broke formation and scrambled towards them like real hero fodder.

[Vitruviansquid]

but unless this is some 3e/4e hybrid, you threaten like that in non-adjacent squares, even with reach.

No, page 290 of PHB1 makes it clear it is only adjacent squares unless you have Threatening Reach.

[Colmarr]

No, page 290 of PHB1 makes it clear it is only adjacent squares unless you have Threatening Reach.

I think that was a typo and he meant to say "don't threaten" (hence the 3e/4e hybrid comment).

[Vitruviansquid]

Frankly, I was a bit confused by the rest of the post, but worried that people will misconstrue the situation if I didn't correct him. And then I didn't want to assume anything because if I was wrong, as I am wont to be, I would look like a big jerk.

[Guinea Anubis]

Well I missed it, but you guys are right about the whole AO. I talk to my friend about it and he talk to the DM and the DM admited that he messed up the rules and made a mistake.

[dsmiles]

Deva Avenger MC Monk/Any PP (soulforged or favored soul?)/Soul of the World. Not a broken hero, but I'd say 14+ surges, 50-ish defenses and 150+ DPR is a pretty solid striker. you can def squeeze some nova into there too

I was referring to single class/multi-class. I haven't fully explored this "hybrid" stuff yet (and not sure I'll allow it in my campaign yet, due to me not fully exploring it yet). When I do, I'm sure that you'll turn out to be right, I'm just speaking from experience. (As in I'll take a straight rogue over a straight avenger anyday.)

[Meta]

I was referring to single class/multi-class. I haven't fully explored this "hybrid" stuff yet (and not sure I'll allow it in my campaign yet, due to me not fully exploring it yet). When I do, I'm sure that you'll turn out to be right, I'm just speaking from experience. (As in I'll take a straight rogue over a straight avenger anyday.)

Yea that is just a multi class. Avenger MC (multi class) monk. That's for zuoken's centering a great feat if your wis is high. That said it doesn't increase or decrease the striker-ydamage at all. And the problem with avenger's compared to rogues is that they're muchhhh harder to play. Rogues are no archery rangers but the avenger is prob one of the hardest classes to play to its full potential.

Also optimizing them is more difficult, as a rogue has a very specific niche and usually some pretty obvious choices whilst the avenger does not. I'm by no means bashing the rogue, but frankly both rogue and avenger are both pretty average strikers (in a good way) with the rogue perhaps being slightly better when played by the 'average dnd player.' this isn't a bad thing though, as classes like the barbarian are ranger are probably too good rather than an effective baseline

[Lamech]

How did the players take AO's to run into the goblins? The only possible way that could have happened was if the goblins had Threatening Reach, which I wasn't aware the Goblin Warrior, the only level 1 goblin with a spear, had

Wait I thought instead of getting feats monsters got better defenses and attack bonuses per level? Only big bad evil guys were supposed to get the full build out with feats and all.

[Vitruviansquid]

What? No. Monsters don't get "feats" at all. Solo and Elite type monsters just tend to have better abilities and more hp.

I'm also not 100% certain Threatening reach can be gained by a feat for the players, though I'm not a professor of feats and feat selection.

[Tiki Snakes]

Think there's a daily utility that gives threatening reach as a stance? Certainly no mere Feat, afaik.

It's certainly not something I'd expect on level 1 goblins.

[BobTheDog]

Well, if I were building some phalanx goblins I'd make sure they had TR.

I'd also make sure to use hobgobs, since they are the militaristic phalanx badasses of goblinkind, but that's mostly fluff.

[Malakar]

The thing is...

In 4e, if you actually play monsters intelligently and build good combinations of units that support each other, and only pick strong monsters for XP value...

They are actually really tough for any non-optimized-single-track-madness-sparta party to handle.

If you have like two Orbizards using AoE sleeps of doom, Or Cleric of Clericton Army that is always invulnerable, or Ranger Party + Warlord + Wizard, with Wizard taking out half the enemies, and then Rangers shooting bajillion damage, you can deal with really well played monsters.

But if not... DMs pretty much have to easy mode to give your average party a chance.

[Kurald Galain]

They are actually really tough for any non-optimized-single-track-madness-sparta party to handle.

Yes. For instance, encountering a bunch of elven archers in a forest, if the DM plays them intelligently, easily spells TPK for many parties.

[Meta]

Yes. For instance, encountering a bunch of elven archers in a forest, if the DM plays them intelligently, easily spells TPK for many parties.

Counter to stealthy skirmisher/lurked types: see above avenger

[Crossfiyah]

Seeing as how I am Potion Sale's DM, I can vouch for how amazing Avengers can be when played intelligently.

The party consists of the following:

Archery Ranger (Homebrew weaponry, but essentially still the same damage output as a greatbow wielding ranger)
Dragon Sorcerer
Eladrin Cleric
Minotaur Fighter (The old kind. With Oversized)
Tiefling Avenger (Not technically, but yeah, basically. Qualifies for Deva feats due to RP purposes)

I regularly throw +3 encounters at them, and every day includes a +4 or +5, depending on how many battles that day contained. They've only been threatened with TPK 3 times.

Once at level 3, before the Ranger showed up, and the Avenger was a Paladin. Poor Pally died. That was a level 6 encounter, but it was right after another level 6 encounter without a break in between.

Once at level 8, when the giant demon orc that was storming the dwarven city came down on them, hard. Everyone was unconscious except the Sorcerer and the Cleric, and occasionally the Ranger. The Avenger died, again. That was a level 12 encounter, with a homebrewed level 10 solo included.

And finally, once at level 10, when they were dueling two devas riding golden dragons. It was a battle to bloodied, and the Avenger was all that was left. He single-handedly took out the last 3 monsters without getting hit. That was level 14, IIRC.

So yeah. Avengers, optimized, can be one of the scariest, well-utilized PCs on the map.

Also...Get off your goddamn iPad. Take notes.

[Meta]

We just did 1 minute speeches on what we were supposed to have read. I had skimmed through it all but of course I get roman questors. 2 **** sentences of them in the whole book. O well.

And yes I didn't mean to say that avengers are a win button but the sneaky stuff that dms will use to counter the barbarians and rangers is probably gonna get wrecked by the avenger. High perception, amazing mobility, good damage, and tough enough to go hunting by themselves for a bit.

EDIT: You. Just. Called. Me. A. Deva. Let's stop pretending and let me trade in this infernal wrath crap for thousands of memories of goodness

EDIT 2: Kurlad you should call us out when we disprove things you say. call upon those 1000+ WotC posts of experience; don't let us clever whippersnappers bully you. i know at least some of those were in charop. Be a fun little debate to enlighten the community on what optimization can accomplish.

Plus being a conversation ender isn't that fun I promise.

@Alex, dont be hatin cuz Meta is fearless and he's not afraid of your negative bloodied rubbish.