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2010-08-26, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
[3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
Okay, I had this silly idea when I was looking at Complete Warrior, just wanted to ask if it actually works.
Human Fighter 18/Lion Totem Barbarian 2
Flaw 1: Power Attack
Flaw 2: Cleave
Human bonus: Combat Expertise
L1: TWF
Fighter 1: Imp. Sunder
F2: WF: Warhammer
L3: WF: Battleaxe
F4: WF: Longsword
L6: WF: Heavy Mace
F6: Imp. Trip
F8: Quick Draw
L9: Imp. TWF
F10: Anvil of Thunder
L12: Hammer's Edge
F12: High Sword Low Axe
F14: Three Mountains
L15: Shock Trooper
F16: Leap Attack
L18: Oversized TWF
So, you have 4 attacks with the main hand, 2 with the off. Classic start, Rage, Charge, Pounce, full attack.
The "idea" is to attack with a weapon, drop it, draw another weapon, continue attacking, etc. to get the most use out of all weapon style feats, preferably activating them all in the same full attack.
Considering people can boost their Str to 30+ at that level with ease, the result is three Fortitude saves of DC 30+, in order to not get knocked prone, get dazed and nauseated. There's also a trip attack and a possible follow up attack involved. The minimum to activate them all requires 5 attacks, while the build has 6 (7 with Haste or Quick weapon). The DC is enough against monsters of CR 20, since they have around +20-25 Fort. saves, they'll probably fail half of them, more if debuffs are involved.
Leaping Shock Trooper charge adds +40 damage plus whatever your strength bonus is, probably something greater than 10, etc., old stuff here.
Optional: One can also lose one of the styles to free some feats, and can then add Dungeoncrasher + Knockback to use that "jumping and knocking your enemy into ground" tactic in addition to this.
Issues
1- Many different weapons: trouble. You can't have them all enchanted, and this is a serious disadvantage.
2- Off hand attacks + iterative attacks: very hard to make them all hit.
3- So. Many. Feats.
There are probably more, but let's address them for the moment being.
1- Greater Magic Weapon can help. We need optimally four of them, so it's a little harsh on our friendly wizard, but doable.
2- We don't have to make them all hit. Dazed + Nauseated is a little overkill, as well as Trip + knocked prone (essentially the same thing). One can arrange his attacks to give priority to one condition from either group, etc.
3- One can start from a normal charger build and then move along to this, so it's not that big of a problem.
Result
Too much effort for probably not that big of a gain. So, why, do you ask?
Because I was bored.
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2010-08-26, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
By level 20 a DC 30 fort is nothing, particularly with the enemies you're likely to be mixing it up in melee with. Yeah an enemy wizard would have a hard time with that, but you're not likely to be doing much melee with him.
Perhaps for a lot of cheese, Aptitude weapons so you can use all your feats with a given weapon set (think I'm reading the entry correctly). That'll free up a few feats, and a lot of money.
I assume you wanted spirit lion totem for pounce, not lion totem. If so, why not barb1/ftr18/ feat rogue 1 (or some other dip?)
edit:
Buy the wizard a metamagic rod of chain spell, now he should be able to chain Greater Magic Weapon. It's gonna cost you a lot, but it's better than expecting him to waste 4 slots a fight to let you do your thing, or get a wizard cohort.Last edited by herrhauptmann; 2010-08-26 at 10:23 AM.
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2010-08-26, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2007
Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
About the saves, it's not exactly DC 30, it depends on how much you can boost your strength. DC 30 means a 30 strength, which I know any optimizer in this board can easily surpass.
The Aptitude weapon enhancement really helps this build, though. I'm not sure if it can mimic more than one weapons at the same time, but if it can, it would be a really nice mix with the Lightning Mace crit build, not to mention cutting the required Greater Magic Weapon spells by half.
And yes, spirit lion totem is correct, my mistake. Also, the second level of barbarian can use a change too.
Now that I look at it, Iaijutsu can also work with the non-Aptitude version of the build.
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2010-08-26, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- Department of Smiting
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Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
Another disadvantage: You kind of have to pick up the weapons you dropped if you want to go through that routine again, unless you want to carry a ton of nonmagical weapons around. As mentioned, Aptitude Weapons - which can function for all the feats simultaneously, as they behave as whatever is necessary - are a massive help to this build. And of course Lightning Maces would make it more powerful, but if your DM sees "Lightning Maces" and "Aptitude Weapon" on the same sheet he really ought to disallow it, because:
[spoiler]
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2010-08-26, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
Wolf totem barb 2 for Imp. Trip, then Knock-Down. Drop High Sword Low Axe (that was the trip one, right?) and it's prerequisites. Now all your hits can trigger free trip attempts.
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-08-26, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
All good suggestions. Are you allowed to use 2 different totem barbarians in the same build, by the way?
Oh, and yes, I know about Aptitude + Lightning Maces cheese, just intended to use them in a less... cheesy way. You are right, though, DMs would shoot them down immediately when they see them together. Cancel Lightning Maces, then.
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2010-08-26, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- Finland
Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-08-26, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- I wish I knew...
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Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
Why not get Warblade in there and be able to switch out your weapon focus/specialization/etc... feats without having to buy multiple different ones?
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2010-08-26, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
That'd probably make a more powerful character than fighter 18, but the OP would lose quite a few feats. Using warblade for a free retraining of feats each day might help reduce the need for feats, but I don't think it'll do enough.
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2010-08-26, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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2010-08-26, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- I wish I knew...
- Gender
Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2010-08-26, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Finland
Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-08-27, 05:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
You can't retrain feats involving more than one weapons, and you can't retrain feats that are prerequisites of some other feats.
Thus, you can't retrain weapon style feats with the Warblade ability since most of them involves two weapons (Three Mountains is probably changeable, though), and you can't retrain Weapon Focus feats because weapon style feats have them as prerequisites.
Regardless, having the ability to change Three Mountains style and WF: Heavy Mace alone would be enough reasons to get Warblade 1, I guess.
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2010-08-27, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
Unfortunately Swordsages don't have white raven or discipline focus would give you three of your needed weapon focus feats.
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2010-08-27, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Maryland
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Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
If we're assuming a friendly wizard, can you assume the use of heroics as a buff? The extra feat might prove helpful in such a tight build.
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2010-08-27, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
Get shifting weapons, +1 enchant free action turns weapon into any other weapon. No having to drop them
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2010-08-27, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
Some Tempest levels could help with the multiple weapon foci.
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2010-08-27, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Canada
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Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
Shifting Aptitude weapons:
best of both worlds.Demilich avatar by Smuchmuch. Thank you VERY much!
Old Extended Signature, last updated in 2012
Awright, Supagoof, that's just awesome. Thanks!
Spoiler
Infernal avatar by Savana. Thanks!
Nude version by SmuchMuch.
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2010-08-27, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- I wish I knew...
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Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
Why bother with Shifting when you can get Aptitude and get everything you want from your pet toy, but still have the most optimized numbers relevant to your build?
Also, with two Weapon Focus feats, they can be any two you need to qualify for any given tactical feat you wish to use at the time. You simply can't use ones which you don't have 'active' at that moment.
Never underestimate the broken-ness of paired Aptitude Kukri being used for Lightning Mace, Blood In The Water, and either Improved Critical or Keen...SpoilerQuite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us
My homebrew world in progress: Falcora
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2010-08-27, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
- Gender
Re: [3.5] The Swiss Army Knife Charger
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2010-08-28, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007