[3.5] Knight help

[Frosty]

I'm building a low-level Knight (level 6), with race being human (this is not negotiable unfortunately). There's a possibility of me taking two levels of Paladin first since I'm likely to have a high charisma. I'm trying to make a good protector and arcanist-hunter, and I'm thinking of going with a reach weapon of some sort. Books available include all the complete series and the phb 1 and 2 and nothing else.

I have a decent idea of what I want my feats to be, but I could use some input for that and ability score placement. Equipment suggestions would be nice as well but keep in mind no MiC (see book list above). Standard WBL.

stats to assign: 9 12 12 13 17 18

Thinking of taking combat reflexes and Deft Opportunist definitely to really make sure those AoOs hit. Is Deft Opportunist worth it do you think? Will need to save room for EWP (spiked chain) if I decide to use a chain. Probably Mage Slayer. Improved Trip would be nice but I'm not sure I have the feats to fit it in...

[W3bDragon]

I don't really have a distribution in mind, but I'm thinking you should probably put your high stats on dex (for your combat reflexes etc) and on cha.

Test of Mettle is frequently met with targets that aren't eligible, so in the times when you can use it, its really anti-climatic when they pass the save. Pump that Cha for a good DC on it.

[Pechvarry]

I think we had an anti-mage thread around here recently, but a quick list of random things to help fighting arcanists:

Level 1 ranger, complete mage replacement level (favored enemy: arcanist)
Paired with Nemesis from Book of Exalted Deeds -- automatically detect favored enemies within 60 feet.
Supernatural ... something. Um. Look in Fiendish Codex 2 for a feat that allows you to get attacks of opportunity vs Su attacks.

ALERT. If your DM allows you to swap alt class features for alt class features (i.e. using wildshape variant ranger to use druid wildshape variants, etc), you MIGHT be able to make your 1st level in Holy Judge Paladin (Complete Champion), which gets Favored Enemy (Devils) which you MIGHT, in turn, get to swap out for favored enemy (Arcanist), since it's an ACF for Favored Enemy as opposed to a new FE choice (which would do nothing since Holy Judge is locked into Devils).

...I need to read more about this. And probably do it.

[WinWin]

Occult Slayer from complete warrior. A few good resistance options.

Witch Hunter? Tome of Magic

Suel Arcanamach? Complete Arcane. Charisma focussed warrior mage. Just take no/few spells with somatic components.

Cavalier (CW) or Wild Plains Outrider (CAdv) are good for a mount focussed build.

The Mage Slayer line of feats from complete arcane are decent.

2 handed weapons work well with casters (taking a hand off to cast is a free action). If you go with a reach weapon, make sure you have a secondary weapon such as Armour Spikes or Gauntlets so adjacent opponents can be attacked.

Mounted Combat is a useful feat line, especially with a fast mount. A large mount can be your characters 'trip' attack in certain situations. It can assist in zone control if it is large enough.

Deft opportunist is nice, but probably something you want to add later rather than sooner.

If you elect to take Dex as a high stat, then Weapon Finesse will aid in your attacks. It will also give your character a decent ranged option.

I hope this gives a few ideas.

[Jornophelanthas]

@WinWin:
The Knight receives Mounted Combat as a bonus feat, and a selection of the feat line can be chosen as further bonus feats at higher levels. I don't think it's worthwhile to use regular feats to invest in this particular feat line.

@Frosty (OP):
I'm currently playing a Paladin/Knight with stats quite similar to yours. I started out with 6 levels of Paladin, followed by X levels of Knight. Looking back, 4 levels of Paladin was enough, because it gives access to Turn Undead and some minor divine spellcasting.

If you are willing to have 4 Paladin levels, I warmly recommend the divine feat Divine Might from Complete Warrior (which requires Power Attack), because it converts your Turn Undead attempts to damage, based on your (high) Charisma score. Add Cleave for some additional damage output, because Divine Might works on all your attacks during a single round. Combat Reflexes is also an option, as it also provides additional attacks.

In my build, I put the two highest scores (17 and 18) in Strength and Charisma, raising the lower one to 18 at level 4. Flavour-wise, I think this fits the knight-in-shining-armor concept. Additionally, the knight's D12, the paladin's Lay On Hands ability and wearing heavy armor can compensate somewhat lower Dexterity and Constitution scores.

Finally, if you want to use a reach weapon, perhaps the Short Haft feat from Player's Handbook 2 can be useful to you, although it requires Weapon Focus.

Edit:
One last note, Mage Slayer and Paladin spellcasting are not compatible. But you knew that. Still, Paladin spellcasting is not worth much anyway.

[OMG PONIES]

Still, Paladin spellcasting is not worth much anyway.

Battle Blessing and Sword of the Arcane Order beg to differ.

[HunterOfJello]

*Obligatory ToB post*


Have you considered the Crusader and Warblade classes.

The Crusader makes the best holy knight out of any class that I've seen. It has amazing defensive capabilities, good healing, decent damage, and is extremely hard to take down.

JEven just dipping into Crusader or Warblade is an excellent idea for this type of character. A 1 level dip into Crusader at level 5 could net you a nice Marital Stance and 5 Maneuvers, several of which would be 2nd level maneuvers. (A second level could grant you another stance along with your charisma bonus added to your will save, if you don't already have divine grace.)

You could grab

Shield Block - (Counter) Add your shiled bonus + 4 AC to an ally as an immediate action
Mountain Hammer - (Strike) As a standard action, make a melee attack and do +2d6 damage while overcoming all damage resistance and hardness

and

Iron Guard’s Glare - (Stance) All enemies you threaten take a -4 penalty to attack against all your allies.
or
Martial Spirit - (stance) Your or an ally within 30 ft heal 2 hit points with each successful attack

plus maneuvers for healing allies while attacking in melee, giving allies bonuses to attacks on enemies or bonus damage on a charge that doesn't allow AoO

[Amphetryon]

Just in case he doesn't drop by to offer it himself: Person_Man has a handy guide.

[Philistine]

*Obligatory ToB post*


Have you considered the Crusader and Warblade classes.

Books available include all the complete series and the phb 1 and 2 and nothing else.

I invite you to draw your own conclusions.

[Jornophelanthas]

Battle Blessing and Sword of the Arcane Order beg to differ.

I meant to say, Paladin spellcasting is not worth much if you never advance above Paladin 4, meaning you only ever get to cast 1 first level spell per day, at CL 1, and only if your Wisdom grants you a bonus spell.

We are talking about a build that has mainly Knight levels.

[thubby]

what book is knight from?

[Amphetryon]

what book is knight from?

PHb II, new classes.

[Frosty]

@WinWin:
The Knight receives Mounted Combat as a bonus feat, and a selection of the feat line can be chosen as further bonus feats at higher levels. I don't think it's worthwhile to use regular feats to invest in this particular feat line.

@Frosty (OP):
I'm currently playing a Paladin/Knight with stats quite similar to yours. I started out with 6 levels of Paladin, followed by X levels of Knight. Looking back, 4 levels of Paladin was enough, because it gives access to Turn Undead and some minor divine spellcasting.

If you are willing to have 4 Paladin levels, I warmly recommend the divine feat Divine Might from Complete Warrior (which requires Power Attack), because it converts your Turn Undead attempts to damage, based on your (high) Charisma score. Add Cleave for some additional damage output, because Divine Might works on all your attacks during a single round. Combat Reflexes is also an option, as it also provides additional attacks.

In my build, I put the two highest scores (17 and 18) in Strength and Charisma, raising the lower one to 18 at level 4. Flavour-wise, I think this fits the knight-in-shining-armor concept. Additionally, the knight's D12, the paladin's Lay On Hands ability and wearing heavy armor can compensate somewhat lower Dexterity and Constitution scores.

Finally, if you want to use a reach weapon, perhaps the Short Haft feat from Player's Handbook 2 can be useful to you, although it requires Weapon Focus.

Edit:
One last note, Mage Slayer and Paladin spellcasting are not compatible. But you knew that. Still, Paladin spellcasting is not worth much anyway.

Mageslayer, however, won't interfere with me using Wands with paladin spells in it right? I'm not sure I want to take too many Paladin levels since my Knight's Challenge DC levels are based off of that.

[The Glyphstone]

Mageslayer, however, won't interfere with me using Wands with paladin spells in it right? I'm not sure I want to take too many Paladin levels since my Knight's Challenge DC levels are based off of that.

Nope. The only items that are effected by your CL are (I think) Staves, and maybe not even them - they can default to their internal level if yours sucks anyways.

[Sindri]

There's a feat in the Draconomicon that gives you a dragon cohort and treats their ECL as 3 lower. It's frequently useful for knights who want a more awesome mount. I find that wyvern typically works best, but YMMV.

Also, +1 to Mageslayer feats. Especially with AoO bonuses and reach. Not only do I get to hit you whenever you cast anything, but your defensive spells are useless! It's a significant feat investment, but definitely worth it.

[Frosty]

Mageslayer doesn't have any prereq feats (which is ridiculously awesome) and the low low price of 2 ranks in a cross class skill (both for Knights and Pallies). But I presume you're talking about Pierce Magical Concealment, which also requires Blindfight?

Remember I'm pretty feat-starved here. I don't even have Power Attack yet.

[Jornophelanthas]

Mageslayer, however, won't interfere with me using Wands with paladin spells in it right? I'm not sure I want to take too many Paladin levels since my Knight's Challenge DC levels are based off of that.

Only two of the Knight's Challenge abilities require enemies' saving throws, namely Test of Mettle (at Knight 4) and Daunting Challenge (at Knight 12).

For Daunting Challenge, save DC will likely not be an issue, since you will receive it late in your career and you already have a base modifier of 16 + CHA modifier by that time.

Test of Mettle, honestly, is not a great ability, because it is both situational and hard to use well (and survive).

Also, if you hunt arcanists, using abilities against them that require Will saves is not a good idea. Such abilities are better spent on their less intelligent minions.

Finally, both these abilities have your CHA modifier as part of the save DC, meaning you can compensate for it with a high Charisma score (and with magical bonuses to your Charisma). Also, if your Charisma is high enough, you probably won't miss the one or two uses/day you won't have because of two/four paladin levels.

Most of the time, your Knight's Challenge charges are best spent on Fighting Challenge, which does not require a save, and which you probably won't be able to use more than twice per encounter anyway.

In my opinion, the greatest cost of taking more Paladin levels is the delay in obtaining new Knight class features, such as the Fighting Challenge +2.

[Frosty]

Since I'm starting at level 6, and I want to get to my knight abilities quickly, I probably shouldn't take too many paladin levels *now*. Who knows how long PbP games last y'know? I can always go up to paladin 4 later for turn attempts.

[Jornophelanthas]

Then your best option is to take 4 Knight levels, followed by 2 Paladin levels. Then at the next 2 levels, you can consider raising Paladin to 4 (or not).

Remember that Paladin is not multiclass-friendly. Once you stop taking new levels in it, you can't continue any more.

(Besides, Knight 4 nets you Medium Armor Mastery, which is in my opinion one of the best things the Knight class has to offer.)

[hamishspence]

Remember that Paladin is not multiclass-friendly. Once you stop taking new levels in it, you can't continue any more.

Unless you're in one of the Faerun paladin orders- at least one allows you to multiclass freely in one other class of your choice.

Theres also the "Devoted X" feats- but none of them is Knight.

[FMArthur]

I would probably engage in a fight to the death with any DM who forbade me from multiclassing between Paladin and Knight, of all things.

[Frosty]

I would probably engage in a fight to the death with any DM who forbade me from multiclassing between Paladin and Knight, of all things.

Especially a Knight that is Lawful Good. But the Paladin is special (according to the PHB) and requires ALL of my dedication or some crud like that.

Do you guys think it'd be broken to homebrew a feat that allowed Smiting and Knight's Challenge uses/DCs to stack with Knight and Paladin levels?

[FMArthur]

Especially a Knight that is Lawful Good. But the Paladin is special (according to the PHB) and requires ALL of my dedication or some crud like that.

Do you guys think it'd be broken to homebrew a feat that allowed Smiting and Knight's Challenge uses/DCs to stack with Knight and Paladin levels?

Well, extra uses and DCs for Knight's Challenge is really all you would be interested in after 6 levels of Knight, but it wouldn't be unbalancing or lead to anything that could be. I'd allow it in a heartbeat just to encourage multiclass Knights and Paladins, both of which could stand to be more interesting (and struggle individually to offer more than a Crusader might).

[Amphetryon]

Especially a Knight that is Lawful Good. But the Paladin is special (according to the PHB) and requires ALL of my dedication or some crud like that.

Do you guys think it'd be broken to homebrew a feat that allowed Smiting and Knight's Challenge uses/DCs to stack with Knight and Paladin levels?

Frankly, I'll be shocked if there's not already an extant homebrew feat to do this very thing.