Optimize me a Theurge!, or, I love Gouda!

[WarKitty]

Ok, so I'm taking build advice.

Here's the starting setup: Bard and Cleric (pref. cloistered cleric but open to all cleric variants) going to Mystic Theurge. Entry as early as possible; alignment must be CG. Any and all deities are available. All WoTC 3.5 materials are fair game. Now I am well aware MT is not an optimal class. Which is where I'm taking playgrounder's advice. Given those requirements, what's the most optimized build you can create? No infinite loops, otherwise cheese away.

Edit: ABSOLUTELY NO messing with the base classes or the alignment restriction. I will throw a virtual book at your head.

[Kobold-Bard]

Does it have to be Cloistered Cleric? Because Theurging Ur-Priest and that fast-spell advancing Bard PrC is pretty awesome.

Or use mine and you can get in with CC 3/Bard 2, ending up with CL 17/17 casting (subtle advertising is my speciality )

[Vizzerdrix]

Cleric2/Sorc1/Theurge10/Legacy Champ7. Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster should cover the spell needs, and I'm not 100% on Legacy Champ but it should advance Theurge.

Favored Soul might cut down MAD a bit too.

I think Druid3/Sorc1 would allow Arcane Heirophant(sp?). So you could go Druid3/Sorc1/MT3/AH10/MT3. Not too shabby either. you'd be able to have an animal companion as a 16th level druid with the right feat.

[WarKitty]

Does it have to be Cloistered Cleric? Because Theurging Ur-Priest and that fast-spell advancing Bard PrC is pretty awesome.

Or use mine and you can get in with CC 3/Bard 2, ending up with CL 17/17 casting (subtle advertising is my speciality )

Sorry I have an alignment restriction in place, so no ur-priest. The bardic casting is really the focal point if I have to advance one class higher than the other.

And yes I know other classes might be able to qualify, and that the entry has a bit of MAD - it's not too bad, I have decent stats and I want the INT skill points anyway.

[WinWin]

If you use Illumian as your race, you can use early entry tricks.
Same with DMM on any race.

It all boils down to increasing the level of spells you cast with turn attempts to meet the 2nd level spells prerequisite.

Mind you, heightening spells in this manner increases the spell level without increasing the effective spell level. So it may not pass your DM's standards.

[Analytica]

If I would build something optimized with bard and divine caster flavour, I would go:

Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer (dragon mag class) 5/Arcane Hierophant 10

Casts as a Bard 17/Druid 18, no levels have less than 4 skill points.

If you are dead set on cleric, and can use cheese...

Bard 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6/Arcane Hierophant 10

This requires Alternate Spell Source to qualify for MT (you can prepare your cleric spells as arcane spells, so you can prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells) and Bamboo Spirit Folk for race to get into Arcane Hierophant. It gives you Bard 17/Cleric 19 casting, and I think slightly fewer skill points.

The first solution is completely legal RAW and RAI though. The other, slightly more iffy.

[WarKitty]

If I would build something optimized with bard and divine caster flavour, I would go:

Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer (dragon mag class) 5/Arcane Hierophant 10

Casts as a Bard 17/Druid 18, no levels have less than 4 skill points.

If you are dead set on cleric, and can use cheese...

Bard 1/Cloistered Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6/Arcane Hierophant 10

This requires Alternate Spell Source to qualify for MT (you can prepare your cleric spells as arcane spells, so you can prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells) and Bamboo Spirit Folk for race to get into Arcane Hierophant. It gives you Bard 17/Cleric 19 casting, and I think slightly fewer skill points.

The first solution is completely legal RAW and RAI though. The other, slightly more iffy.

It needs a temple-y flavor, not just divine. I know druid is technically divine, but it's not really the same. My DM will let me slip a fair bit of cheese past the radar as long as I promise not to break the game's power level (especially since the primary reason for the cleric is so I can keep everyone else breathing and not enspelled).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Sorry I have an alignment restriction in place, so no ur-priest. The bardic casting is really the focal point if I have to advance one class higher than the other.

And yes I know other classes might be able to qualify, and that the entry has a bit of MAD - it's not too bad, I have decent stats and I want the INT skill points anyway.

Your biggest problem with this idea is that most early entry tricks for MT either require Ur Priest or Wiz/Sorc to function properly (precocious Apprentice)

There was an UrPriest/Sublime Chord MT I made once that ended up with 9th level spells on both sides, but you said you didn't want MT...
Sublime Chord = Bard with Sorcerer casting. Fun stuff.

[WarKitty]

Your biggest problem with this idea is that most early entry tricks for MT either require Ur Priest or Wiz/Sorc to function properly (precocious Apprentice)

There was an UrPriest/Sublime Chord MT I made once that ended up with 9th level spells on both sides, but you said you didn't want MT...
Sublime Chord = Bard with Sorcerer casting. Fun stuff.

I'm not just looking for early entry tricks. I'm looking for anything - useful feats, races that offset penalties or give handy bonuses, etc.

Although I should have specified, my DM has approved Alternate Spell Source as qualifying for MT.

Edit: I presume you meant to say "you didn't want UrPriest." It's a no-evil campaign.

[Marnath]

Your biggest problem with this idea is that most early entry tricks for MT either require Ur Priest or Wiz/Sorc to function properly (precocious Apprentice)

There was an UrPriest/Sublime Chord MT I made once that ended up with 9th level spells on both sides, but you said you didn't want MT...
Sublime Chord = Bard with Sorcerer casting. Fun stuff.

O.o what? She does want an MT.

[DragoonWraith]

The Adaptation section of Ur-Priest recommends a non-evil variant where you worship a dead god. Would that work? You'd have to tweak the entry requirements slightly, but it would work.

Anyway, getting into MT as soon as possible: Illumian (RoD) Bard 2/Cleric 1 with Improved Sigil (Krau) (RoD) gets to treat two spells as one level higher than usual - choose a Bard spell and a Cleric spell, and you'll qualify for Mystic Theurge (assuming you have the Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Religion) requirements, which shouldn't be hard).

Ur-Priest or not, though, you're going to want to become a Sublime Chord. You'll need to get Perform and Listen as class skills - Apprentice (Entertainer) (DMG2) handles Perform, but Listen's harder (and more important) - Whispered Secrets (RoD) would be perfect, except you have to worship Vecna, who is Evil, and a Good Cleric can't do that. Draconic Heritage (RotD) is Sorcerer-only, so that doesn't work. Aerenal Focus is from Eberron and probably requires being an Aereni Elf, and Skill Knowledge from Unearthed Arcana is supposedly from a variant (no real reason it can't be used in a normal game, though). Ask your DM about getting those as class skills; a reasonable DM should not have a problem with this.


Honestly, the correct way to do this would be to discuss a homebrew'd Bard/Cleric Theurge. Cheesing your way into classes that weren't designed for this (or weren't well-designed to begin with) is just not a great way to do this, IMO.

[Adumbration]

You could try and use the Illumian Heighten trick to qualify early.

[WarKitty]

Grrr... tbh I was really hoping for feats, skill ideas, etc, not just what levels to take when. I posted this way because last time I got a bunch of "MT sucks take something else" answers and nothing actually useful. Or "Spontaneous casters suck be a wizard" or other stuff that requires messing with the character concept.

[Kobold-Bard]

Practised Spellcaster x2, one for each class. Less of an option and morbid a necessity if you ever want to use a spell that requires a Save.

Skills are pretty Wizardy so anything useful is cross class, which sucks since neither of your classes require high Int. Beyond Concentration invade you get surrounded nothing particularly important.

[Marnath]

I don't know anything about optimizing, but this looks like a decent guide.

[DragoonWraith]

Practised Spellcaster x2, one for each class. Less of an option and morbid a necessity if you ever want to use a spell that requires a Save.

Practiced Spellcaster doesn't do anything for Save DCs, it only affects Caster Level (which isn't used for DCs).

Skills are pretty Wizardy so anything useful is cross class, which sucks since neither of your classes require high Int. Beyond Concentration invade you get surrounded nothing particularly important.

Yeah, pretty much, this. Mystic Theurge doesn't get worthwhile skills - look to Concentrate and Spellcraft, and then I guess you get some Knowledge skills.

You won't be very Bardic, at all, because you'll have very little Bardic Music, and you won't have any particularly Bard skills, leaving you with... a really weak Mystic Theurge.

Hence, I suggest homebrewing something that works better - has 6+Int skills, appropriate class skills, and advances Bardic Music. Otherwise, you're likely to be a Bard in name only.

[Kobold-Bard]

Practiced Spellcaster doesn't do anything for Save DCs, it only affects Caster Level (which isn't used for DCs).


...

Every single time I forget that <facepalm>

[Tyndmyr]

Sanctum Spell would be my recommendation. Mind you, there's still a bit of a hump, as you only qualify while in your sanctum, but it is delightfully versatile, getting you the 2nd level in both casting classes with only a level each. Now, you still have the skill requirements to death with, but this lets you determine which is your primary class.

[Marnath]

Once you reach a certain point of RAW-bending cheese, you have to ask yourself why not just gestalt an arcane and divine casting class and call it a day.

[WarKitty]

Once you reach a certain point of RAW-bending cheese, you have to ask yourself why not just gestalt an arcane and divine casting class and call it a day.

Because I have a newbie DM that is very good at building incredibly complex ideas and not so good at figuring out advanced stuff like gestalt or homebrew, so I'd rather not keep coming to him with can I do x or y.

That and the only reason I'm cheesing in the first place is so I can be reasonably competent rather than completely sucky. I'm not trying to break the game, I'm trying to build a character that can hold its own against a moderately optimized single-classed caster in a mid-level game. I like the flavor of a character that combines arcane and divine casting, just not the way it works out.

[Tyndmyr]

Early entry should be enough for that. Consider what you plan to do when MT ends, though. Most DMs are ok with simply extending the class, as it's not like MT has a great deal of class features to deal with.

Plus, if you're only a single CL behind on one of your classes, you can get away with only taking practiced spellcaster once.

[Marnath]

You don't want to confuse him/her with gestalt, but you're confident he/she can figure out rules bending cheese? O.o
I don't see that, but ok fair enough. You're the one that knows him/her.

[Kobold-Bard]

Divine Bard is on the SRD under variant classes. Basically a Bard that except their spells are Divine.

Maybe look into just playing one of them since it fits te flavour you seem to be going for.

[Tyndmyr]

Alternatively, straight bard into the PrC of your choice, with extra spell once or twice along the way to pick up signature healing spells.

Not the same as cleric/bard dual progression, but if the big need is a party healer, that can definitely be done.

[Draz74]

If somewhat liberal interpretations of Alternate Spell Source have already been OK'ed, could you just make a Cloistered Cleric/Prestige Bard? Mix in Virtuoso or Sublime Chord if desired. You need some way to get Perform as a class skill; if nothing else, you could use a couple levels of Half-Elf Paragon.

[WarKitty]

DM doesn't actually look at or care about cheese as long as I tell him it's legal and it'll work. Unfortunately I'm in a rather tough spot building this character, as the concept comes from a different system. I'd really rather not redo the character too much, I've gotten rather attached to her - but it's very hard to make the concept work in 3.5. The original character was a bardess that joined a temple later on. She had two main sets of abilities, one was the ability to charm people and animals, the other was healing. I've looked at the divine bard but it doesn't seem to fit, mostly because of the switch to wisdom-based casting on what was built as a Cha>Int>Dex>Wix character.

[Draz74]

OK, so you want to stay focused on Charisma-based casting. That kills the Cloistered Cleric/Prestige Bard. And no one has been able to come up with any other really good way to combine Cleric and Bard.

Why, exactly, do you need Cleric at all? A pure Bard should be able to function just fine as a temple-flavor priest. Just give him a lot of Knowledge (religion) and other cleric-friendly skills, and say his magic comes from a deity. If his magic doesn't actually come from a deity (via refluffing), give him enough Bluff and Disguise to fake it.

(Side note: Favored Soul is not as good as Cleric overall, but at least it's a genuine Charisma-based divine caster. Well, it has some Wisdom dependence too, but a lot less.)

[Marnath]

If you just wanted to be a healer....

[WarKitty]

Hmmm...my main gripe is that I want access to healing spells past just the cure line, and access to the protection/magic circle line. If there's any good way to get those I'd be happy. We're high enough level that healing goes well past simply casting cure spells over and over.

[Marnath]

Wands of lesser vigor and healing belts would be a good start. You can even use your healing belts charges on someone else I beleive, which gives all party members a limited ability to step into your shoes. And the rogue can probably umd your wand if you are down.