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    Question [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    In 3.5, it was elementals, oozes, undead, constructs, deathless, and plants. In Pathfinder, it's elementals and oozes. (Deathless haven't been updated.) There are other ways to become crit immune, but I ask which creature types should always be crit immune.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Undead and constructs indeed should not be. Both of them have points of structural weakness that one could hit for, as they say in the vernacular, massive damage.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Oozes for sure, methinks. Elementals, maybe.

    Plants, probably not. Cut roots, or...whatever.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    I agree that only elementals and oozes should be given crit immunity.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Yeah. Anything with a non-homogeneous anatomy is likely vulnerable to critical hits.

    Oozes and Elementals are both made of the same stuff all the way through. Beyond that... Not sure there is much of anything.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    I don't know if undead in general should or should not be. But definitely some undead should not be. Since vampires are immune to criticals it is essentially not possible to stake a vampire in the heart. One houserule I've seen for this is vampires are subject to crits only from wooden piercing weapons.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    If a vampire is vulnerable to HP damage, which he is, I see no reason why he can't be critted. He relies on the integrity of his body to be able to move and such. Damage to a joint would impair him--such a hit would be a critical.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    I've got to go with the only Elementals and Oozes make sense. Generally big magical robots have some weak spot (just look at Talos from Greek myth and his Achilles' heel... except he was killed by a group that included Achilles' dad). Undead rely on structural integrity, and vampires can be head shot just as well as anything else (if any undead are questionable it is the incorporeal forms and maybe liches).
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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    I was thinking of the incorporeals myself, yeah. Liches too. But, again, a Lich body can be hurt, killed. Therefore, it can likely be hurt MORE with a well aimed shot.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Quote Originally Posted by esrz22 View Post
    Yeah. Anything with a non-homogeneous anatomy is likely vulnerable to critical hits.

    Oozes and Elementals are both made of the same stuff all the way through. Beyond that... Not sure there is much of anything.
    Agreed. The whole idea of a crit is that there is some vulnerable spot you can target for significantly more damage. This concept works for almost everything.

    Oozes, elementals, perhaps certain types of plants or swarms...in general, just those things that do not have discernable anatomy.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Yeah I'm rather on the fence about liches. There body is held together mostly by magic (and even can be reconstituted entirely by it). A skeleton's body is held together by relatively weak (and simple) magic compared to that holding a lich's together so I'd leave the question mark for liches (and their silly phylacteries) but it's one that I wouldn't be ready to push all the way into either side.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    "It can be hurt, therefore it can be hurt more" shouldn't be the underlying logic, otherwise anything with hitpoints could be critted. Instead, something with a completely homogeneous body, like an ooze, would not be critted.
    Crits would apply, basically, to anything with a heterogeneous form. Joins? crit! Different parts serving different functions? CRIT

    Only oozes would be immune.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Okay, well, I missed some steps there, yeah. Namely, it has discernible features, points where the physical body does the job, not the animating magic.

    For an elemental or an ooze, the entire body is composed of the same substance. An elemental may take humanoid shape, but it doesn't have a humanoid form. It has no bones, no joints. And ooze is similarly amorphous.

    In the case of a lich, it is very specifically a skeleton, and does act as if it were one. Now, it's held together by magic rather than ligament, but that's not really a big thing.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Yup- plants have stems which can be severed. And some elemental creatures- magmins, for example, or thoqquas, have a more "natural" physical form than convential elementals.

    If you're playing 4E, even oozes can be critted- if you think of them as amoeba-like, this could be a hit to the nucleus.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-08-30 at 04:24 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    You know, one could argue crits for elementals and oozes, too.

    You damage them by... hacking off parts, I imagine, right? A Crit would be a lucky blow that manages to hack off more than usual, dealing more damage.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Oozes have always played a role more likened to that of primitive fungi: They're actually a colony of identical cells put together to better obtain FOOD. Mostly they're all independent of each other so separating them won't do much.

    Quote Originally Posted by esrz22 View Post
    You know, one could argue crits for elementals and oozes, too.

    You damage them by... hacking off parts, I imagine, right? A Crit would be a lucky blow that manages to hack off more than usual, dealing more damage.
    That is just the normal dice roll's variance.
    Last edited by Snake-Aes; 2010-08-30 at 04:27 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake-Aes View Post
    That is just the normal dice roll's variance.
    Well, sure. Never said I'd run it that way--just a theoretically plausible argument.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    I'd say Oozes, Elementals, and Incorporial Undead. Incorps make sense in the same manner as Oozes and Elementals. They are relatively homogenous. A Shadow is competely made up of animated shadow-stuff, negative energy, and a single minded desire to drain the life force from living creatures.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Sounds about right to me.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    I'd say Oozes, Elementals, and Incorporial Undead. Incorps make sense in the same manner as Oozes and Elementals. They are relatively homogenous. A Shadow is competely made up of animated shadow-stuff, negative energy, and a single minded desire to drain the life force from living creatures.
    Yep, this is where my vote goes.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Everything should be crittable. Sure, oozes don't have an anatomy that you or I can discern, but they can still surge forward at the wrong time and lean in to your attack, or otherwise you get extra lucky in your attack. Hit points are abstract anyway, why should crits require landing a blow somewhere special?

    This would streamline the game very slightly, because you would no longer have to ask "can I crit this?" Rogues will still have trouble with oozes and elementals because they are difficult to flank and often have extra senses which make them difficult to surprise. I'm not even a first level rogue, its plausible that such a skilled individual has knowledge we lack and can therefore strike even seemingly formless creatures for extra damage.

    tl;dr Mechanically it's not an issue to let everything be crittable and there are minor benefits.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    One could justify the idea that even joint shots to a corporeal undead wouldn't be critical with this idea:

    They don't need the joints. After all, what's holding these bones in place at all? Magic. So suddenly there's a gap, big deal. The reason they're killable at all is that even if they can continue to function with 90% of their body literally missing, they pretty much cease to be a threat.

    It's sort of one of those alternate concepts for zombies: You can't kill them, period. Not even with a headshot. But a quivering pile of fleshy goo on the floor isn't going to hurt anybody, and is functionally "dead." Same principle with DnD undead. They're not technically gone, but they're functionally harmless.

    Of course, the Fridge Horror of And I Must Scream is just a bonus.
    Last edited by Drakevarg; 2010-08-30 at 04:45 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    The fact that vorpal swords don't work on most types of undead (exception: vampires, it calls them out, at least in 3.0) does lend credence to a head shot not doing anything to a D&D zombie.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    The fact that vorpal swords don't work on most types of undead (exception: vampires, it calls them out, at least in 3.0) does lend credence to a head shot not doing anything to a D&D zombie.
    I was trying to draw a parallel to zombie movies, not DnD-flavored zombies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
    Everything should be crittable. Sure, oozes don't have an anatomy that you or I can discern, but they can still surge forward at the wrong time and lean in to your attack, or otherwise you get extra lucky in your attack. Hit points are abstract anyway, why should crits require landing a blow somewhere special?
    Because crits aren't "hitting extra hard." Rolling high is "hitting extra hard." Crits are "hits somewhere where the damage matters more."

    Which for me means it would make sense if instead of the +whateverd6 rogues get for Sneak Attacking, they just autocrit. Because it's doing the same thing, just on purpose.
    Last edited by Drakevarg; 2010-08-30 at 04:48 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    D&D flavored zombies definitely work differently than standard movie-types. The lack of the headshot kill, fire/etc being effective, and so forth.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Quote Originally Posted by esrz22 View Post
    D&D flavored zombies definitely work differently than standard movie-types. The lack of the headshot kill, fire/etc being effective, and so forth.
    Yes, I know. That's why it was a metaphor. The relevent bit is "they don't actually die, they just stop being able to function, on account of being a stain on the floor."
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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Right. I was just elaborating a bit on the concept, as it's something that's somewhat interesting.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    They don't need the joints. After all, what's holding these bones in place at all? Magic. So suddenly there's a gap, big deal. The reason they're killable at all is that even if they can continue to function with 90% of their body literally missing, they pretty much cease to be a threat.
    Well, in that case (for a skeleton) striking at the weak points in the bones themselves, where they are thinner or more delicate, constitutes a vulnerability. With pretty much anything that has distinct parts and is destructible at all, there are places to hit it that are more damaging than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    Which for me means it would make sense if instead of the +whateverd6 rogues get for Sneak Attacking, they just autocrit. Because it's doing the same thing, just on purpose.
    Which is more or less how Backstabbing worked in earlier editions - double damage, with the multiplier increasing with higher levels. I do like the 3.x implementation, though, in that a sneak-attacker can disregard the base damage on their weapon and actually do significant harm with a dagger.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    I was trying to draw a parallel to zombie movies, not DnD-flavored zombies.
    I was citing supporting evidence for your point. That decapitation specifically in the rules does not kill a zombie lends credence to the argument that D&D zombies are unlike movie zombies.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Which creature types should be crit immune?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapak View Post
    Well, in that case (for a skeleton) striking at the weak points in the bones themselves, where they are thinner or more delicate, constitutes a vulnerability. With pretty much anything that has distinct parts and is destructible at all, there are places to hit it that are more damaging than others.
    But the point I was trying to make is that even breaking the bones doesn't matter. Because sure, their femur is now in two pieces. But since the only thing holding it in place anyway was magic, now you just have it in two pieces, and still floating there and not inhibiting the skeleton in the least. (Unless of course the pieces were violently thrown across the room from the impact. Then there's a six-inch gap in the femur, but the skeleton just acts like nothing happened anyway.)

    Now, what would make sense would be to disarm the skeleton. Literally. Now sure, he's still not technically dead, but what's he gonna do? Glare at you menacingly?
    Last edited by Drakevarg; 2010-08-30 at 05:02 PM.
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