What LA should an aboleth be?

[Zaydos]

Assuming you decided to allow a player to play an aboleth (from the Monster Manual) what LA would you make it?

aboleth

[awa]

im not sure but it should be pretty high it has at will 7th level spells as well as a number of debilitating attacks targeting both fort and will and has high stats. And since most adventures happen on land his ability to steal his foes ability to breath air is deadly.

I honestly don't feel i can give you a good answer largely because the classes that already exists represent such a wide range of power is are slimy friend going on a journey with a sword and board fight and his friend the monk staff fighter or is he joining the dmm persist cleric and bat man wizard on a journey.

[Drakevarg]

im not sure but it should be pretty high it has at will 7th level spells as well as a number of debilitating attacks targeting both fort and will and has high stats. And since most adventures happen on land his ability to steal his foes ability to breath air is deadly.

Maybe not THAT high, given that it has 8 RHD already.

[LOTRfan]

I'm not sure, but according to Savage Species it is more than +12. Odd, I know, but they made monster classes for all monsters ECL 20 or lower.

[awa]

see savage species is terrible absolutely terrible many of their monster classes make a monk look overpowered.

[Starscream]

I'm not sure, but according to Savage Species it is more than +12. Odd, I know, but they made monster classes for all monsters ECL 20 or lower.

I was always mad they didn't include Beholder. I know the ECL is probably too high, but I would have loved to have given playing one a try.

I heard there's an ECL for one somewhere in an issue of Dragon. Anyone know which issue that was?

[CockroachTeaParty]

I once tried to make an aboleth character, and the DM said a +4 LA on top of the racial HD was about fair. I'd have to agree, sounds about right to me.

The at-will illusions are pretty powerful, but keep in mind that you are a Huge squid fish: you'll need some potent illusions on hand if you don't want most people fleeing from you in terror.

Given the propensity of monsters with blindsense, blindsight, or at-will True Seeing, I don't think the illusions should be too much of an issue, especially against the right opponents (dragons, outsiders, aberrations, spell casters... you know, the stuff that matters).

I wish aboleths had telepathy, though...

[Duke of URL]

As comparison, a Rakshasa is LA +7 and 7 RHD. An Aboleth is far more powerful (manifester level 16 vs. sorcerer caster level 7, more powerful special abilities), so I'd expect a significantly higher LA.

Just taking the racial manifesting (16th), one would have to assume that it's a minimum of LA +8 (8 RHD + LA +8 ==> 16) from that.

Then, it's size Huge, which should be a minimum increase of LA +2.

It has 4 appendages, so tack on another LA +1 minimum.

It's special abilities, compared to a Rakshasa, should be at least another LA +1, likely LA +2.

So, from that, I'd estimate somewhere between LA +12 and LA +14, with LA +13 being not only the mean, but the most appropriate.

[Lhurgyof]

see savage species is terrible absolutely terrible many of their monster classes make a monk look overpowered.

I love Savage Species. :(

[LOTRfan]

So, from that, I'd estimate somewhere between LA +12 and LA +14, with LA +13 being not only the mean, but the most appropriate.

So, Savage Species was right!

I love Savage Species. :(

So do I, but some parts are rather broken

[Lhurgyof]

So, Savage Species was right!



So do I, but some parts are rather broken

Yeah... But there's something cool about being an Umberhulk.

"What are you?"

"A level 6 Umberhulk."

"What??!"

[awa]

see the thing is your aboleth with level adjustment 13 means that he needs to be a level 21 character to play. I would bet a level 21 warrior would eat him alive much less a good class

edit unless of course your joking and poking fun at savage species poor level adjustment system

[Zaydos]

Okay applying savage species to it:
Increased level spell-likes at will +2
Natural Armor +7: +2
4 Natural Weapons +1
Reach: +1
Unbalanced Ability Scores: +1 or more.
Mucus: +X?

If I roll Mucus into Spell-like abilities, would +7 be fair? Or would +7 be closer to fair with the Psionic version (ML 13, less at-will abilities but more varied and neater abilities)?

[awa]

see the problem with savage species is it values certain kinds of abilities far to heavily i would much rather have a class level then reach
and with two levels of totemist you could get +6 natural armor and have class features

so i feel savage species level adjustment system is brutally bad
edit
a level adjustment 7 your playing a level 15 character with only 8 hit dice
That loss of hp and base attack is going to keep you out of melee pretty good
so things like reach high strength and large size will not be particularly useful

your saves will take a solid hit not to mention leaving you vulnerable to attacks that effect you based on hit dice.

Personally i think that give or take a couple level adjustment based on the nature of the campaign and the general power level of the party La 2 or 3
would be fair

its cr 7 so theoretically its a match for a single level 7 pc
Im upping its level adjustment because having a pc class also means better stats and pc wealth by level not to mention the fact that its ability are at will which is more useful to a pc then a monster.

[Zaydos]

see the problem with savage species is it values those kinds of abilities far to heavily i would much rather have a class level then reach
and with two levels of totemist you could get +6 natural armor and have class features

so i feel savage species level adjustment system is brutally bad

It tends to be, the only time I use them is for gestalt where you are still getting BAB/saves/skills at the levels with LA. In that case it tends to be a playable, if not optimal, choice.

[Haarkla]

I once tried to make an aboleth character, and the DM said a +4 LA on top of the racial HD was about fair. I'd have to agree, sounds about right to me.

The at-will illusions are pretty powerful, but keep in mind that you are a Huge squid fish: you'll need some potent illusions on hand if you don't want most people fleeing from you in terror.

Given the propensity of monsters with blindsense, blindsight, or at-will True Seeing, I don't think the illusions should be too much of an issue, especially against the right opponents (dragons, outsiders, aberrations, spell casters... you know, the stuff that matters).

I wish aboleths had telepathy, though...

+4 seems about right to me. An Aboleth seems about equivalent to a 12th lvl character.

[unimaginable]

Aboleths have a racial memory that dates back millions of years before the gods even existed. I'm having trouble imagining a situation in which I'd even contemplate allowing one as a PC. Totally inappropriate for almost any game.

[VirOath]

Aboleths have a racial memory that dates back millions of years before the gods even existed. I'm having trouble imagining a situation in which I'd even contemplate allowing one as a PC. Totally inappropriate for almost any game.

Not summoning Water C'thulu

[awa]

on one hand it does say they have a lot of racial knowledge but look at their stats they have good but not amazing mental scores and no racial bonus to knowledge checks they don't even have bardic knowledge or anything similar so i would say this racial knowledge must be vague to the point of uselessness

[Zaydos]

on one hand it does say they have a lot of racial knowledge but look at their stats they have good but not amazing mental scores and no racial bonus to knowledge checks they don't even have bardic knowledge or anything similar so i would say this racial knowledge must be vague to the point of uselessness

I thought that was the fluff writers not looking at the game stats. Although once I peg an LA I might have to mention that they'll need to explain why they don't have the full racial memory of an aboleth, or that aboleths do not have such racial memories in setting.

Edit: Also I would use something in the 3 to 4 range, but everyone has monster races with LA so the average power level of the party is... I'd say lowered noticeably but it is also gestalt so they'll still come out stronger than a non-gestalted character (and with LA hurting a lot less).

[Khatoblepas]

I'd actually say ECL8-9. Their Abberation hit die are worse than a Clerics, their spells are illusions and while at will at a high caster level, aren't as useful as most 4th level spells. Their huge size and giant strength would be useful for a fighter, but they only have +6 BAB and a 10ft land speed, so a half ogre or even a minotaur would be more suited to being a fighter, making their size a hindrance rather than a boon. They're Long rather than Tall creatures, and their Dex sucks for their HD, making battlefield control impossible.

Their slime is completely non useful for fighting enemies, as the debuff is an average of -1 AC and 6 damage per 10 minutes. While flavorful when used against NPCs, by the time you reach ECL8, NPCs will have access to Heal, or be able to afford a scroll of it.

The Mucus is useless out of water, and again, methods for breathing water exist as a low level spell, so at most it will drown mooks.

Their enslave ability would be good, and is probably THE reason for playing an Aboleth. 3/day Supernatural Dominate Person, Permanent until Remove Curse? Oh wait, they get a Will Save every day to break free, and only works within 1 mile of the Aboleth. You could get a few followers with this, but only Humanoids, and only those who can't make their will saves. Rogues and Fighters, woo! You'd probably have to make sure to have less than 4 thralls. You never know when someone will break free.

The Aboleth IS good, but it isn't good enough to warrant any LA at all. It doesn't optimise any build like Half Ogre does, nor does it have a ridiculous special ability like Black Ethergaunts. A possible build could be:

Aboleth 8/Ur Priest 2/Contemplative 10
To have a divine caster Aboleth.

The only way I could think to make the Aboleth as powerful as a Tier 1 character would be to cheese up a Shadowcraft Mage for at will Shadow Conjurations, if that's even possible. But even then, it would never get 9th level spells. But at will 6th level spells is still pretty nice, though you are still a huge target, and a slow one at that.

[awa]

now see that just proves that classes are unbalanced if the party are playing tier one class then the aboleth is weak if your playing tier 6 hes much stronger.

Now that said in a gestalt game i would add some level adjustment over a normal game because the weakness of having level adjustment or racial hit dice are vastly reduced.

[Toliudar]

I'm still having trouble picturing a campaign in which a huge cthulhu-squid is a viable choice for a character. Given that level of weirdness, a +2 LA would probably be fine in my books, because of the 8 racial hit dice.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

As comparison, a Rakshasa is LA +7 and 7 RHD. An Aboleth is far more powerful (manifester level 16 vs. sorcerer caster level 7, more powerful special abilities), so I'd expect a significantly higher LA.

Just taking the racial manifesting (16th), one would have to assume that it's a minimum of LA +8 (8 RHD + LA +8 ==> 16) from that.

Then, it's size Huge, which should be a minimum increase of LA +2.

It has 4 appendages, so tack on another LA +1 minimum.

It's special abilities, compared to a Rakshasa, should be at least another LA +1, likely LA +2.

So, from that, I'd estimate somewhere between LA +12 and LA +14, with LA +13 being not only the mean, but the most appropriate.

This is satire at its finest. LA+13? A CR7 is totally managable versis an epic spells! Do a quick search on rakshasa and you'll see a lovely post recently about them

tl;dr rakshasa are horribly over LA'd (by like double).

OP: +3 if an aquatic campaign; listen to awa everyone

and the SS way to estimate LA even admits in the text that it is horribly bad.

[Escheton]

I would not allow a player to play an aboleth. They can't. Aboleths are more mad and alien then mindflayers and beholders. There is simply no way they can get in character. And as such it is a moot point.

[LOTRfan]

I would not allow a player to play an aboleth. They can't. Aboleths are more mad and alien then mindflayers and beholders. There is simply no way they can get in character. And as such it is a moot point.

Well, even if you would not allow it, I'm sure that some one would, and the fact that DMs role play Aboleth NPCs proved that they can indeed get into character (now, granted, obviously not as easy as a more commonly-thinking race, but it could present an interesting challenge). As long as one person here can and is willing to role play it to the best of his/her ability (which I assume the op is at least), I don't think the point is moot.

[Khatoblepas]

I would not allow a player to play an aboleth. They can't. Aboleths are more mad and alien then mindflayers and beholders. There is simply no way they can get in character. And as such it is a moot point.

DMs can play Aboleths, so it's not as if humans are banned from thinking with a wildly different mindsets. And Aboleths are Usually Lawful Evil, the same frequency as Hobgoblins. There have to be some Neutral and Good Aboleths out there. You just need to think a little differently in order to come up with a reason why the Aboleth is out adventuring with the other PCs.

S'thagolghug was always deeply disturbed by what he knew. His ancestors were bloodthirsty, evil masterminds, and they had devoured their share of adventurers. One of these was a Paladin, Starfire the Just, who was on a quest to find a precious artifact for the Temple of Pelor. Every time S'thagolghug closed his massive, glazed eyes, he saw her. Beautiful. Pure. She had dedicated her life to the forces of Good, and to be struck down and horribly eaten by one of his kind was a cruel fate. He played her memory over and over in his head. Maybe he just wanted the dreams to go away. Maybe somehow the Paladin had tainted him, made his wet sliminess somewhat more absurd, obscene, and vulgar in comparison every time he thought about himself.

He was going to find that artifact and bring it back to that Temple. Maybe that would stop the dreams, the nightmares that plagued his every moment.

[LOTRfan]

Wow. Did you just create that back story yourself, or did you ever use that concept in a campaign? Because that would've been pretty cool...

[Escheton]

That is still a human-like mindset and reasoning.
Neato, but looks like a drow in a fishsuit.

What I mean is that it is extremely difficult to roleplay an alien mind without applying a mostly human mindset with kinks and traits.

For some actual advice: Check out Lords of Madness. It has a chapter on aboleths. Just like races of the wild has a chapter on elves.

[Khatoblepas]

Wow. Did you just create that back story yourself, or did you ever use that concept in a campaign? Because that would've been pretty cool...

No, it's just something I came up with on the fly.

That is still a human-like mindset and reasoning.
Neato, but looks like a drow in a fishsuit.

What I mean is that is is extremely difficult to roleplay an alien mind without applying a mostly human mindset with kinks and traits.

And what WOULD the Aboleth's mindset be? All it says in it's stat block is that it's a cruel predator with a penchant for illusions, not that it's from beyond time and belief. Please tell me the average aboleth's backstory that you would run, as a DM, to give it a reason to be more than just a pond dwelling trap. It's a perfectly intelligent, reasoning being. Sure, I gave mine a human mindset, but if you eat enough humans and inherit their memories, isn't corruption going to seep in somewhere?