4e first time DMing question

[The Rabbler]

Background: I'm fairly inexperienced in DMing in general, and a group of friends asked me to DM a 4e game for them. I have always (ab)used 3.5 and have never used 4e at all. With that said, I'll get to the question.

What is a good challenge for a group of level 1s (3-5 of them), all of which are either completely new or fairly inexperienced with 4e, that won't destroy them? None of them will be making anything that resembles an optimized character, but I don't know what a level 1 player should reasonably be able to handle. Can the playground give me some tips?

EDIT: all books are allowed, in case it matters.

[ashmanonar]

Background: I'm fairly inexperienced in DMing in general, and a group of friends asked me to DM a 4e game for them. I have always (ab)used 3.5 and have never used 4e at all. With that said, I'll get to the question.

What is a good challenge for a group of level 1s (3-5 of them), all of which are either completely new or fairly inexperienced with 4e, that won't destroy them? None of them will be making anything that resembles an optimized character, but I don't know what a level 1 player should reasonably be able to handle. Can the playground give me some tips?

EDIT: all books are allowed, in case it matters.

Unlike previous editions, where encounter design was part CR calculation and part weird unholy voodoo, encounter design for 4e is pretty straightforward.

Monsters are listed with certain XP values. Total encounter xp values for 4, 5, and 6 players of each level are listed in the DMG. Put monsters together to reach the desired encounter level, and you're basically done. An even level encounter is supposed to be moderately difficult (Ha, fat chance. Any level of optimization pushes the even level encounter into easy.) Each +1 to the level of the encounter makes it more difficult, up to about a +4 of party level, which is end-boss type difficulty.

(It obviously gets more complicated than that, because some monsters work better together than others. You've also got terrain and possible alternate goals to think of. If you're looking in the Monster Manuals, they actually list 1 or 2 example encounters for each type of monster right next to the monster stats.)

(Swordsaged! Okay, I'm only guessing. But still.)

(Holy hell, I didn't get swordsaged!)

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

I'm not sure if you're talking about an entire adventure or a single encounter here. I can't help with the former, so I'll assume the latter.

4e actually makes this part of DMing really simple. Each monster is worth a certain amount of XP, and you "buy" monsters for each encounter from a total amount of XP determined by the number of PCs and their level. The DMG has instructions and tables on page 56 for this.

Assuming 4 level-1 PCs, you want to use monsters whose XP totals around 400 or 500 for an average battle. 800 is the most you could possibly go without having an insta-kill, and 300 is probably the lowest you should go.

DMG page 58 has encounter templates based on monster type and PC level, but a good rule of thumb is to have one monster of the PCs' level for each PC (4 level-1 monsters vs. 4 level-1 PCs is a good standard battle).

Hope that answers your question!

(If you want a ready-to-play adventure, the Kobold Hall adventure in the back of the DMG is actually pretty decent. I think it assumes 5 PCs. You can also take a look in there to get a feel for how strong the encounters should be.)

EDIT: Ninja'd! What ashmanonar said is right, though an even-level encounter will definitely be in the middling-difficulty range if your players are as unoptimized as you say they are going to be. Plus those assume terrain favoring the monsters, so that's the DM's job.

[The Rabbler]

Alright, this sounds fairly simple. Thanks for the explanations, both were very helpful.

Similarly, are there any monsters that I should definitely not send against a first level party?

[Loren]

The previous posts are quite correct, it is a fairly simple matter to balance encounters if you have a DMG and a MM.

there are several adventures availible at http://www.dungeonmastering.com/camp...-dd-adventures I can't speak to their quality, but I find it nice to be able to 'look over a DM's shoulder' at the least before trying to run a game.

ack, I've been s'saged

I've heard that kruthiks can cause TPKO's but no experience with them

[tcrudisi]

First of all, if you are all new/inexperienced to 4e, then your players will expect a little bit of a learning curve while you figure out the right balance to combats in 4e.

Actually, the DMG covers it fairly nicely. You are used to the CR system, but obviously that has changed quite a bit. Now there are monsters done by the amount of xp they are worth (all non-minions of a certain level give the same amount of xp, and all minions give the same amount of xp dependent upon level). You then get an "XP budget" to spend when designing an encounter. For more information on this, see page 56 of the DMG.

Also, I really want to call your attention to page 42 of the DMG as well for "Actions the Rules Don't Cover". Basically, if your players want to do something like cutting a chandelier down so that it falls on an enemy -- this is the page you want. Please note that this page has had errata on it, so the "DC values" chart has changed (been made easier on the players, since it was discovered how hard it is to pass those values used as-is.

Actually, there's a laundry list of errata, but honestly - don't use it straight away. Just get the errata for that page and run with it. If you use the character builder then it has most of the errata in it anyway so you won't even have to worry about that.

One last piece of advice: the best and most fun way to bring diversity to your combat encounters is with the terrain. Put in memorable terrain features that the players and monsters can use/abuse. It'll be hard to figure out at first, but once you run an encounter with a fun terrain feature you will understand what I am saying.

Since you asked for an appropriate level 1 encounter, I'll give you one. Note that you didn't specify the exact number of characters, only the range of 3-5. You'll note that the DMG gives the "Target encounter xp" for 4, 5, and 6 PC's. You'll also note how easy it is to scale that to 3, should you desire.

Oh, one more thing - please dear god avoid any encounters of (players) level +5. Any more than that and they literally won't be able to hit the monster (except on maybe a 19+ die roll) and the monster won't be able to miss the players (except on a 1). Just... avoid it. In fact, avoid most level +4 or level +5 fights except for boss fights (until your players and you know what you are doing).

Assuming 5 characters, here's a level +1 encounter (encounter level 2 for 5 pc's has 625 budget xp):

2x guard drakes
3x elf archer/scout (3 total, not 3 of each)

4e is big on "refluffing". You don't want elves to be the bad guy? You prefer Goblins? No biggy - those "Elf Archers" are now "Goblin Archers".

(Actually, I shamelessly stole the suggested level 2 encounter printed at the end of the guard drakes section in the MM2)

Monsters you should definitely NOT send against a first level party? Anything level 5 or above. Really, monsters are very well balanced in 4e so you won't hear anyone say "lol the level 1 Orc is more like a level 12". Although one monster did get errata'ed -- uh... some sort of drake? I can't remember. Anyway, you should be fine. DM'ing is soooooo easy in 4e that you'll be able to spend most of your time focusing on the story-building rather than spending a couple of hours making the final BBEG.

Good luck!

[The Rabbler]

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helpful stuff
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Monsters you should definitely NOT send against a first level party? Anything level 5 or above. Really, monsters are very well balanced in 4e so you won't hear anyone say "lol the level 1 Orc is more like a level 12". Although one monster did get errata'ed -- uh... some sort of drake? I can't remember. Anyway, you should be fine. DM'ing is soooooo easy in 4e that you'll be able to spend most of your time focusing on the story-building rather than spending a couple of hours making the final BBEG.

Good luck!

So WotC put some thought into the monster CR placements? This sounds like it won't be too much trouble. 3.5 had me paranoid . Thanks a lot, everyone!

[Thajocoth]

Alright, this sounds fairly simple. Thanks for the explanations, both were very helpful.

Similarly, are there any monsters that I should definitely not send against a first level party?

Monsters that a 1st level party shouldn't see conveniently have a level of 5 or higher.

Encounters should range from 1 level below the party at their weakest to 3 levels above at their strongest. It's ok to go 4 levels above occasionally, but if you do, count it as 2 encounters for calculating milestones. The average encounter should be one level above the party.

Since you and your players are all new... Drop a level off everything I just said for the first two encounters. After that, use what I just said.

[The Rabbler]

Monsters that a 1st level party shouldn't see conveniently have a level of 5 or higher.

Encounters should range from 1 level below the party at their weakest to 3 levels above at their strongest. It's ok to go 4 levels above occasionally, but if you do, count it as 2 encounters for calculating milestones. The average encounter should be one level above the party.

Since you and your players are all new... Drop a level off everything I just said for the first two encounters. After that, use what I just said.

thanks for the advice, I'll be sure to use it.

[Mando Knight]

Although one monster did get errata'ed -- uh... some sort of drake? I can't remember.

Needlefang Drake Swarm. It has a minor-action attack to knock people prone, can dish out a free melee basic to any enemy that starts its turn next to the swarm, and deals an extra die of damage to anything that's prone.

The kicker that put it in the "UPDATE NOW!" section? The damage dice were d10. And this creature isn't even level 5. Now it's down to a d6, but before that the swarm could spell doom for any party member with bad Fort (the defense that the knock-prone attack targeted).

[Vitruviansquid]

Everything the people above said is sound, but also remember that you want to want to build an easier level 1 encounter since your group hasn't figured out the system yet.

I recommend either going with something slightly below xp budget or going with something at-budget, but then design the terrain or setting of the encounter to somehow give the players a small advantage.

For completeness sake, even though you probably already know this through common sense, be sure you understand all the rules about the monster before putting them in an encounter. I've seen two pretty harsh TPK's from the DM outright misinterpreting monster rules.

[The Rabbler]

Needlefang Drake Swarm. It has a minor-action attack to knock people prone, can dish out a free melee basic to any enemy that starts its turn next to the swarm, and deals an extra die of damage to anything that's prone.

The kicker that put it in the "UPDATE NOW!" section? The damage dice were d10. And this creature isn't even level 5. Now it's down to a d6, but before that the swarm could spell doom for any party member with bad Fort (the defense that the knock-prone attack targeted).

That's the kind of poor thought-process that I was hoping to avoid in 4e. I'm glad it got updated.

[holywhippet]

You might want to grab a copy of Dungeon Delve - it has prebuilt encounters for a range of character levels.

[The Rabbler]

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For completeness sake, even you probably already know this through common sense, be sure you understand all the rules about the monster before putting them in an encounter. I've seen two pretty harsh TPK's from the DM outright misinterpreting monster rules.

I've almost committed a few of those TPK's myself. I don't really expect that from the low-level monsters, but I'll make sure I understand the monsters that I use later.

You might want to grab a copy of Dungeon Delve - it has prebuilt encounters for a range of character levels.

those of my players that have played before greatly dislike premade encounters. Probably worth looking into, but I generally don't use stuff that I don't make. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[Eorran]

The monster roles are also helpful in building encounters. Really, though, I'd stress the importance of picking where the fight happens. In 4e by design, location matters almost as much as opposition.

The first fight can be simple, but as you go, I find my best encounters start with me dreaming up an awesome fight scene for an action-adventure type movie, then figuring out how to put that location into the story. Geyser fields, rope bridge spanning a chasm, the inside of an enormous well.

Dungeon Delve is a pretty good resource for encounter samples, and it's almost trivially easy to switch one monster for another or re-skin a monster in 4e.

[tcrudisi]

those of my players that have played before greatly dislike premade encounters. Probably worth looking into, but I generally don't use stuff that I don't make. Thanks for the suggestion though.

So do I, but they were a great way to familiarize myself with the game without putting a lot of pressure on myself. I would ask if they would be okay if you ran just one, just to help learn the system. They really are good for that, although they are "railroady" and, well, mostly combat-oriented.

[Hzurr]

If you're looking for a module to start with, I've heard fantastic things from everyone who has played the adventure "HS1: The Slaying Stone"

[The Rabbler]

hmmm, I'll look into them.

[Leolo]

You should also avoid putting too similar monsters together.

Not only that this can be boring. It can also change the difficulty by stacking benefits or drawbacks.

For example a group of foes attacking with area attacks can bring down a group that is not much schooled in tactical positioning fast - and goes down fast if the dm does not know enough about it. One of my tomb of horror like adventures included a fire beetle trap that releases 5 fire beetles (already errated) around the group for a surprise round. That results in very much damage, and still was only a level 1 encounter.

Terrain, tactical advantage and stacking monster strengths can heavily increase the difficulty.

You should wait until your players are experienced in using teamplay and their groups strengths before you use such tools on the monster side.

[Kurald Galain]

Similarly, are there any monsters that I should definitely not send against a first level party?

There are a few instances where encounter design requires "weird unholy voodoo" because WOTC messed up the challenge rating on a monster and it is actually much tougher than it appears. The most well-known of these is the Needlefang Drake Swarm. Also, don't play archer monsters with "kiting" tactics, because this may well massacre an inexperienced party.

[TheEmerged]

You might want to grab a copy of Dungeon Delve - it has prebuilt encounters for a range of character levels.

If you can afford it and find a copy without too much trouble, I strongly second this. Even if you don't run the actual encounters, it will give you a basis for how to set up the encounters and hazards.

If you've got money to burn, "Slaying Stone" isn't bad. It'll give you a better grasp of how skill challenges can work better than the initial materials did.

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Looks like the important points have been already been covered, so here's some second-tier pointers.

• Kurald mentioned avoiding ranged mobs with kiting abilities & tactics. I'll see this suggestion, and raise it by a "Also watch out for minions with ranged attacks at first." After about 3-5 encounters, the party should be familiar enough with the rules that this isn't a problem.
• Pay attention to your party makeup when choosing monsters. The party I DM'd when we started included a wizard, a dragonborn, and a swordmage -- and I found that they tore through minions the way I tear through pineapple & bacon pizza. I continue to use minions (party will soon be 12th level, although the class mix has changed). I know another group of players that says they had trouble at first because their only decent source of ranged attacks was a wizard.
• Now it doesn't apply to your level... but two other monster types I've seen problems with are wights and myconids. That "shift 3 squares when you hit" power of the wights drove my party crazy. The myconid ability to spread damage around greatly mitigates the standard tactic of focusing on one opponent.
• Hazards are a great way to mix up encounters -- but can also frustrate your players if (like me) you start crossing the line into overdoing it.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Oh, and here's some voodoo:

Spoiler

Show

- Minions are weaker than they look. Treat 6 minions = 1 normal monster instead of 4. I suggest using more minions against novice players; they leave a lot of room for error and can give the PCs time to get a "feel" for the system.

- Brutes are weaker than they look. While not necessarially a whole level weaker, Brutes are unlikely to prove threatening without Leader or Controller back-up.

- Soldiers are stronger than they look. Use them sparingly - they work like mini-Elites.

- Solos are not actually solos. They're tough, but a party-vs.-solo Encounter ends poorly for the Solo and is usually rather boring. I'd avoid them entirely until you get comfortable with the Art of Encounter creation.

Generally speaking, be sure to mix up roles and don't be afraid to use the Monster Builder (read: DDI's Adventure Tools) to make creatures that you need. The most important thing to do is to make sure you always include some Artillery along with melee-types; an all-melee battle gets real boring, real fast.

[Grynning]

A quick tip that may help you out - don't plan for the suggested 4 combat encounters per session starting out. Combat is going to take a lot longer in general than a 3.5 game, and if you guys are just dipping into 4th, figuring out powers, positioning and movement will drag it out even longer. I would suggest throwing in a simple skill challenge with a roleplay "encounter" for your first couple games; skill challenges are fairly easy to come up with on the fly and are fun way to float the party some XP without a long slugfest.

(Just ignore the original DMG's rules for skill challenges, which are terrible. Read the updated ones if you can, or just set a "best x out of x rolls" number and let people creatively apply their skills to the situation).

[Reis Tahlen]

I know it's quite a bit out of subject, but I DMed my first D&D4 session today, and it was pure pleasure. You'll get the hang of Encounters pretty quickly. And yes, being used to the CR system can be confusing at first look.

[Kurald Galain]

Oh, and here's some voodoo:

Good points, especially about solos. A good hint for beginning DMs is to never use a solo monster alone, but instead accompany it with some minions or a leader or whatever. The term "solo" is just a fluff-word and does not imply that the monster has to be alone.

The reason is that any halfway-decent party will have status effects, and a lone monster is going to be subject to all of them. At once. Expect your monster to spend the combat dazed, marked, immobilized, cursed, quarried, blinded, slowed, and prone all at the same time.

Oh yeah, another suggestion. If you end up in the kind of combat where both sides are reduced to spamming their at-will powers, and it's clear that the players are going to win and the monsters are no longer a serious threat, declare victory for the PCs and end the combat. It's generally no fun slogging through another 200-300 hit points if the outcome is already clear.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Oh yeah, another suggestion. If you end up in the kind of combat where both sides are reduced to spamming their at-will powers, and it's clear that the players are going to win and the monsters are no longer a serious threat, declare victory for the PCs and end the combat. It's generally no fun slogging through another 200-300 hit points if the outcome is already clear.

As a corallary, try to avoid monsters that have effects that make them more durable. Heals, THP, and DR should be used sparingly; they cause combat to drag on instead of be fun. Substitute instead reanimation (creature revives 1 turn after it dies at Bloodied HP) or bodyguarding (another creature takes half of the damage); these are interesting mechanics that can make key monsters harder to kill without actually slowing down the pace of battle.

[Kurald Galain]

As a corallary, try to avoid monsters that have effects that make them more durable.

Oh yeah. One of the most annoying battles I've been in was against monsters that are insubstantial (thus halving the damage you do), weaken you (thus again halving the damage you do), and on top of that regenerate (thus, well, you get the point here).

[Jaidu]

Oh yeah, another suggestion. If you end up in the kind of combat where both sides are reduced to spamming their at-will powers, and it's clear that the players are going to win and the monsters are no longer a serious threat, declare victory for the PCs and end the combat. It's generally no fun slogging through another 200-300 hit points if the outcome is already clear.

I agree with this, and in my group we will often have 2-3 PCs trade a healing surge to end a fight early. The idea behind this is that a few more rounds of combat might cost enough HP to be worth a surge or two, but the PCs will usually handle it.

A few more thoughts:
I never use a minion that just has a melee basic attack and no other traits or features because they tend to group up and get mowed down pretty quickly. Minions can be great for flavor, though, since they can make a village, fort, etc. seem like it has a lot of creatures without breaking the experience curve.

I have found very few solos to be interesting, especially as boss fights, since players tend to save their daily attacks for bosses and neutralize the challenge. There are a few exceptions to this (the tembo at the recent Dark Sun Game Day comes to mind) but most of them lead to very boring fights.

Even level fights are fine to introduce players to the game, but once they get a bit used to it and their characters get a little more steamlined, I would say that anything less than a +2 level fight can get really, really easy.

[kyoryu]

If you're looking for a module to start with, I've heard fantastic things from everyone who has played the adventure "HS1: The Slaying Stone"

I'm teaching my wife and daughter to play, and using HS1. It's not bad. The skill challenges felt somewhat awkward to me, but that's the only real criticism I have.

One thing to note is that it throws a *ton* of enemy types at the players - kobolds, goblins, orcs, iron defenders, wolves, an ankheg, stirges and other vermin, and a (non-combat) encounter with a dragon. It's not *bad*, it's just not my typical style and so I felt it was worth noting.

If you're new to 4e, I will tell you not to worry about the power of the encounters - we haven't had a serious problem taking anything down yet.

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

Also, I would avoid using NPCs as standard monsters, at least as per the NPC creation rules. They claim they are balanced, but they aren't. One of the toughest fights my players ever went through (barely saved themselves from TPK) was what should have been an even-level encounter versus some NPCs. If you must have the players fight a rogue, wizard, or monk, pick some powers that you think fit the theme of the NPC and use them to create a monster as per the monster creation rules. This makes them way more balanced in terms of damage, number of powers, etc.