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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    I've been working on a character for an upcoming campaign and here's the start so far. Starting at level 5 stats as follows:
    Elf - Diviner 2/Cloistered Cleric 3
    Str- 11
    Dex - 16
    Con - 13
    Int - 18
    Wis - 18
    Cha - 14

    Feats: Combat Casting and Elf Dilettante

    My main goal is to be a duel side spell slinger and skill monkey with all the knowledges that could ever knowledge.

    The stats and feats are negotiable but the classes and race are not. My plan is to advance wizard one more level before taking MT. Yes I know it's not an optimal PrC but it fits the fluff of the character. He is a mage completely fascinated with magic in both the divine and arcane forms.

    He will be in a custom setting which will provide several benefits to divining but I'd also like to make sure he can heal and buff/debuff fairly decently.

    Starting gear is (so far, also would like advice on. using I believe 1.5x WBL more than normal regardless suggestions are welcome I can handle the simple math) : Headband of the Lorebinder (MiC), Artificer's Monocle (MiC, for quick Identifies), Cloak of Resistance +1 (PHB), Healing Belt (MiC), Dimension Stride Boots (MiC, cause jump checks suck and dimension hopping is hot. Proven in a test dungeon, I forgot the item and died horribly to a pit trap.)

    Thanks in advance for the help.

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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    The problem isn't so much that Mystic Theurge is a bad class, it's that getting there cripples a character. I'm sure someone will have posted a more eloquent explanation by the time this gets out, but a simple illustration would be comparing a cleric3/wizard3/MT1 to a wizard7 or cleric7: this means that you're effectively trading 4th- and 3rd-level spells for more 2nd-level spells. Bad idea.

    A possible alternative could be a wizard with the Arcane Disciple feat, or a cloistered cleric with the Magic domain. Both of these options are vastly more effective at their jobs, and all the fluff is still there if you make it so.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kosjsjach View Post
    The problem isn't so much that Mystic Theurge is a bad class, it's that getting there cripples a character. I'm sure someone will have posted a more eloquent explanation by the time this gets out, but a simple illustration would be comparing a cleric3/wizard3/MT1 to a wizard7 or cleric7: this means that you're effectively trading 4th- and 3rd-level spells for more 2nd-level spells. Bad idea.

    A possible alternative could be a wizard with the Arcane Disciple feat, or a cloistered cleric with the Magic domain. Both of these options are vastly more effective at their jobs, and all the fluff is still there if you make it so.
    I completely understand this but the problem being I'll most likely be the only caster or possibly having another wizard focused on Conjuring. I also forgot to post my wand and scroll selection. I believe I'll be more than able to handle healing the group between the Healing Belt and a CLW wand. My current selection of wands and scrolls include: Magic Missle wand, Close Wounds Scroll x5, Command Scroll x4, Cure Light Wounds Scroll x4, Endure Elements Scroll x4, Alarm Scroll x4, Mage Armor Scroll x4, Shield Scroll x4, Sleep Scroll x4.

    Also a Handy Haversack just btw. A lot of his scrolls are utility based due to his limited spellbook. Domains are Knowledge (Cloistered Cleric), Oracle (yea I know it's wonky but legit due to the setting) and Planning.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    I've also been informed by my DM that she (yes I said she) is open to reasonable homebrew so if there is any homebrew MT like class I've missed I'd love to have it pointed out. Though I am only a recent poster I've been watching these forums for some time.

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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    If you missed early entry, your options for making mystic theurge decent fall into two camps. Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord, depending on which you qualify toward.

    In the case where you've already split, well...it's gonna be rough. You have a bunch of lower level spells instead of some lower, some high. In addition, both sides have a lack of caster level. This is pretty crippling. The latter can be mitigated by two doses of Practiced Spellcaster, but you'll still be well behind a plain vanilla caster.

    A better version of MT would be one exactly like it, that required 2nd level spells in one class(your choice), and 1st level spells in the other. Keep the skill requirements the same.
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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    There was a homebrew MT fix on the boards just a day or two ago.

    I found it http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166217

    Can be gotten into by Lv 5 but it still loses 3 levels of casting in both (just not all at the beginning).
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    If you missed early entry, your options for making mystic theurge decent fall into two camps. Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord, depending on which you qualify toward.

    In the case where you've already split, well...it's gonna be rough. You have a bunch of lower level spells instead of some lower, some high. In addition, both sides have a lack of caster level. This is pretty crippling. The latter can be mitigated by two doses of Practiced Spellcaster, but you'll still be well behind a plain vanilla caster.

    A better version of MT would be one exactly like it, that required 2nd level spells in one class(your choice), and 1st level spells in the other. Keep the skill requirements the same.
    I was paying much attention to that particular thread I just don't think either are viable options for this character since bard is right out (I personally just don't enjoy playing bards regardless of their powers) and Ur-priest would be less advantageous in this particular setting. Ur-priest would both piss off several people I may indeed suck up to later and contradict the most basic of concepts of clerics devotion to deities for (mostly) the soul purpose of gaining power.

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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    With early entry, MT is not a terrible option. You give up one caster level of one class for 11 levels of another. There are better PrC options, but this isn't horrible. Wiz 2/Clr 1/MT 10/WizPrC 7 with Sanctum Spell, for example, is quite reasonable, especially if you use the cleric side solely for utility/buffs, possibly with Divine Metamagic.

    Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord is another alternative of course, which let you get 9/9s even.
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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    You can still level drain yourself and restore the levels into something else, so the class levels are negotiable even when you start play.
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    For the same flavor, but better power curve --

    Cloistered Cleric with Divine Magician ACF from CM. You trade in one domain for the ability to add one wizard spell per spell level to your cleric list from Abjuration, Divination or Necromancy. Combine this with a Wizard spell heavy domain -- I like Time, Travel or Spell, and dip Divine Oracle for the Oracle domain getting you a Divination boost (also you get Divination a level earlier). Since you are an elf, Seeker of the Misty Isle gets you Travel. Later on you can add in Contemplative to pick up a couple of other Wizardly Domains. By focusing on Wisdom, you won't be as MAD, and that will make up for some of the fewer low level spells/day. The money you save on a +Int item you can spend on Pearls of Power. Also, you get higher level spells. Yay!

    Time gets you Haste, Permanency, Contingency, Foresight as an EIGHTH level spell, and Time Stop. Travel gets you Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport. Spell gets you Anyspell and it's Big Brother, and Limited Wish which will let you do a variety of Wizardly things each day.


    Elf CC5/DO1/SotM1/CC+3/Contemplative1/CC+9

    Domains: Time, Knowledge(CC), Oracle(DO), Travel(SotMI), Spell(Contemplative)

    For feats, I would recommend Domain Spontaneity, since you have so many tasty domain spells to choose from. You need Skill Focus:Knowledge Religion for Divine Oracle, but the rest of them just require skill points and RP. Feats like Apprentice, that expand your skill list, might be nice since CC gets so many skill points.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    There was a homebrew MT fix on the boards just a day or two ago.

    I found it http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166217

    Can be gotten into by Lv 5 but it still loses 3 levels of casting in both (just not all at the beginning).
    Thanks to everyone for all the advice. I think I'll probably end up going CC3/Wiz2/MT 10 (The quoted above version pending DM approval)/Archmage2/Hierophant 2 (mostly for the reach of 60ft of all touch spells) then possibly something else heading into epic level. I'll definitely be picking up a few Divine Metamagics.

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLich View Post
    open to reasonable homebrew so if there is any homebrew MT like class
    If nothing else, try the Pathfinder MT Just drop the HD down to d4's and your still better off than before. (+class features! still bad entry requirements!)

    Just remembered a homebrew I saw a couple weeks ago Mystic Theurge The Base Class.
    Main features are 1 set of spells per day, but can be used to prep either divine or arcane, and it tops out at 8th level spells, and it has class features out the wazoo.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2010-09-01 at 07:50 AM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLich View Post
    I've been working on a character for an upcoming campaign and here's the start so far. Starting at level 5 stats as follows:
    Elf - Diviner 2/Cloistered Cleric 3
    Str- 11
    Dex - 16
    Con - 13
    Int - 18
    Wis - 18
    Cha - 14

    Feats: Combat Casting and Elf Dilettante

    My main goal is to be a duel side spell slinger and skill monkey with all the knowledges that could ever knowledge.

    The stats and feats are negotiable but the classes and race are not. My plan is to advance wizard one more level before taking MT. Yes I know it's not an optimal PrC but it fits the fluff of the character. He is a mage completely fascinated with magic in both the divine and arcane forms.

    He will be in a custom setting which will provide several benefits to divining but I'd also like to make sure he can heal and buff/debuff fairly decently.

    Starting gear is (so far, also would like advice on. using I believe 1.5x WBL more than normal regardless suggestions are welcome I can handle the simple math) : Headband of the Lorebinder (MiC), Artificer's Monocle (MiC, for quick Identifies), Cloak of Resistance +1 (PHB), Healing Belt (MiC), Dimension Stride Boots (MiC, cause jump checks suck and dimension hopping is hot. Proven in a test dungeon, I forgot the item and died horribly to a pit trap.)

    Thanks in advance for the help.
    Mystic Theurge is a powerful class combo, while not as powerful as a straight Druid, Cleric or Wizard you compare well with other classes. As a DM I would never allow cheesy homebrew Mystic Theurge variants.

    One thing I would recommend is considering wearing armour, a chainmail shirt gives you +4 AC for a 20% arcane spell failure chance. Disgard this when you reach level 6 and get 2nd level arcane spells.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haarkla View Post
    Mystic Theurge is a powerful class combo, while not as powerful as a straight Druid, Cleric or Wizard you compare well with other classes. As a DM I would never allow cheesy homebrew Mystic Theurge variants.

    One thing I would recommend is considering wearing armour, a chainmail shirt gives you +4 AC for a 20% arcane spell failure chance. Disgard this when you reach level 6 and get 2nd level arcane spells.
    Mage Armor costs a 1st level spell slot but gives you a +4 bonus to AC for 1 hour/caster level (more than sufficient for most adventures) and is a pretty good choice too. If you're good aligned and your DM allows Exalted Spells there are some pretty good Armor spells in there (Luminous Armor/Greater Luminous Armor).
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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    I don't have my books with me, but I have been thinking about a dwarf MT:

    Cleric1/Wizard2/MT3/Runecaster1/MT7/other wizard PrC6

    Uses Earth Sense/Earth Spell/Heighten for early entry into MT (possible with flaws or with domains, I think). With enough cheese, you might be able to get into Runecaster even earlier.

    With this character, I am also thinking about pursuing shielded casting, because my DM regularly has enemies that are optimized for interrupting casters. In concept, he's primarily an armored mage who also has some clerical ability. The biggest problem I have is that he is MAD.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    Rather than Mystic Theurge, may I suggest Dweomerkeeper? It's a class that requires both arcane and divine casting that seems pretty good for your concept.

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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    Two things:

    What book is Dweomerkeeper in?

    Also do you guys think that the Persistent spell brokenness would be worth it? I'd most likely need to invest in extra turning to make it worth it but considering I get extend as a free feat from the Planning Domain it's not too bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Mage Armor costs a 1st level spell slot but gives you a +4 bonus to AC for 1 hour/caster level (more than sufficient for most adventures) and is a pretty good choice too. If you're good aligned and your DM allows Exalted Spells there are some pretty good Armor spells in there (Luminous Armor/Greater Luminous Armor).
    Also I agree with Zaydos on the armor issue, especially taking Greater Mage Armor into account. Unless of course I could get more than +6 armor with no ASF though in the future I may lean more towards Bracers of Armor instead but we'll see.
    Last edited by MrLich; 2010-09-02 at 09:53 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLich View Post
    Two things:

    What book is Dweomerkeeper in?

    Also do you guys think that the Persistent spell brokenness would be worth it? I'd most likely need to invest in extra turning to make it worth it but considering I get extend as a free feat from the Planning Domain it's not too bad.



    Also I agree with Zaydos on the armor issue, especially taking Greater Mage Armor into account. Unless of course I could get more than +6 armor with no ASF though in the future I may lean more towards Bracers of Armor instead but we'll see.
    It is possible, without using exalted spells, to get at least +9 Armor without ASF but it requires 37,100 GP for a +5 mithril twilight (Magic Item Compendium and elsewhere) Chainshirt. About equivalent in price to +6 Bracers of Armor.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] MT Help this time with no bard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    Mage Armor costs a 1st level spell slot but gives you a +4 bonus to AC for 1 hour/caster level (more than sufficient for most adventures) and is a pretty good choice too. If you're good aligned and your DM allows Exalted Spells there are some pretty good Armor spells in there (Luminous Armor/Greater Luminous Armor).
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydos View Post
    It is possible, without using exalted spells, to get at least +9 Armor without ASF but it requires 37,100 GP for a +5 mithril twilight (Magic Item Compendium and elsewhere) Chainshirt. About equivalent in price to +6 Bracers of Armor.
    That is pretty freaking nice but we'll see how my wealth grows once we actually start the campaign. Though honestly I see my personal wealth expanding quicker than the overall party's wealth. Though it would give away too much of my character to explain :D

    P.S. Though if I use the Variant MT I could theoretically start as CC3/Diviner1/MT1. Also my DM approved the flaw Frail cause it fits the fluff so well that I was considering taking either Persistent Spell or Extra Turning as my bonus feat.

    Also exalted things are right out because I forgot to mention this character is extremely LN bordering on LE. So honestly with enough pushes in play this character is much more likely to take spells from BoVD than BoED. lol
    Last edited by MrLich; 2010-09-02 at 11:04 PM.

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