[3.5] Why are Search (INT) and Spot (WIS) different skills?

[Endarire]

Spot: Do I notice something? It also covers smell.

Search: Do I notice something? It usually covers feeling.

Searching usually takes longer than merely seeing something, but other skills have various required times to use.

[tcrudisi]

Spot: Do I notice something? It also covers smell.

Search: Do I notice something? It usually covers feeling.

Searching usually takes longer than merely seeing something, but other skills have various required times to use.

Well, in 4e they are the same skill (Perception), which also includes Listen. I don't think it would be game-breaking at all to wrap Spot and Search into the same skill.

As for why they are different, I don't know.

[Vangor]

Because wisdom is your perception and intuition, which taking notice of a subtle cue certainly falls under, whereas intelligence covers reasoning, which covers methodical seeking. While they can cover different areas, I really don't see much of a use besides the two obvious of spotting hidden foes or objects and searching for traps or secrets, which should be one skill alongside hear.

[holywhippet]

Spot: Do I notice something? It also covers smell.

Search: Do I notice something? It usually covers feeling.

Searching usually takes longer than merely seeing something, but other skills have various required times to use.

Search is not "do I notice something" so much as "do I find something". Spot covers whether you notice something actively happening nearby - like someone sneaking up or that your torch has started to burn with a blue flame.

Search is more about checking the area to find what is really there - things like traps, secret doors and objects out of sight.

[Endarire]

One could argue this:

An enemy Rogue is using Hide to escape detection. For argumentative purposes, he doesn't move. Your Spot skill is too low to detect him, even on a 20. Would you use Search to find him then?

[Aran Banks]

Because D&D is pointlessly broken.

I think the rationale is that your spot check is what you use to make out visual differences in something... which sounds perception-y.

Search checks, however, require a methodical searching. So you're not just looking for differences, you're also thinking "what does this mean?" Which is why a search check takes a 5ft square a spot check goes for everything in LoS.

----

OR it could be the fact that Rogues stack Int as skillmonkeys, so WotC decided to help by giving a little skill-to-attribute synergy. That actually seems more logical. They might not even have rationalized it at all.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Search is an active skill. Spot is (mostly) passive.

Search is for taking a close look at a target square in 10 ft. Spot is for taking a general look all around you, with range limited only by range of vision.

Whether these should be different skills or different applications of the same skill depends on how granular you think the system should be.

[Duke of URL]

To pile on... search is analytical, while spot is perceptive.

The former requires logic and analysis (INT) while the latter is based on intuition, instinct, and training (WIS).

[shadow_archmagi]

Spot: "As you walk down the hallway, something catches your eye. It's a gold coin!"

Search: "You run your hands along the walls and carefully examine the patterns in the bricks. Aha! A secret passage."

[DonEsteban]

I suppose the ultimate reason is "because Search used to be a class feature of the rogue in AD&D (and earlier)". So they made it a skill (plus the Trapfinding class feature) in 3.0. And then they realized that they needed something else to model people just "noticing" things.

As for in-character justifications and common use: see all of the above. Although there are overlaps. For example, when I look into the fridge wondering "where is the mustard?", you could say I'm using my spot skill (just "seeing" where it is -- WIS based) as well as my search skill (knowing where a glass of mustard would hide or where people usually put it -- INT based). And it seems sort of silly to let me only use one of them.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Spot: "As you walk down the hallway, something catches your eye. It's a gold coin!"

Search: "You run your hands along the walls and carefully examine the patterns in the bricks. Aha! A secret passage."

Spot: "As you walk down the hallway, scanning for anything out of the ordinary, you notice a gold coin."

Search: "Something seems not quite right about this wall. You take a guess and knock on it...it sounds hollow."

[Sylivin]

Well, I'm pretty sure the real reason is because they wanted to break up the detection monopoly. By using two different ability scores that are rarely taken at high numbers at the same time (at least when the core book came out) it "spreads the wealth" so you don't have just one person doing all the spotting and searching.

In the end you can just have a skill monkey class and get a bunch of ranks in both anyway, but that bonus from a high ability score is still pretty nice.

[shadow_archmagi]

Just to reiterate:

Spot does not require an action.
Search does require an action.


You could perhaps justify renaming the skills
'Notice' and 'Find'

[Urpriest]

Overlapping, but not fully covered: Search is iconically a rogue skill, and rogues are iconically intelligent. Spot is iconically a ranger skill, and rangers are iconically wise.

[shadow_archmagi]

ADDITIONAL THOUGHT:

"Search" is to "Spot" as
"Gather Information" is to "Listen"

[Devils_Advocate]

Search finds a key in a desk drawer. Spot doesn't, since you don't open a drawer just by looking at it.

But there's plenty of overlap. Searching should be able to find pretty much anything that can be Spotted, really, a hiding Rogue being one example. (If you move aside the chair that a stationary Rogue was hidden behind, so that he's no longer hidden, then you've found him, haven't you?) Conversely, there's no reason that someone shouldn't be able to Spot a secret door or unusual stonework if it's not completely concealed, and giving elves and dwarves bonuses to Spot those things would certainly make more sense than them having the weird sixth senses that they do now.

[Gavinfoxx]

I always put Survival as covering smell...

[Shpadoinkle]

Search means you're actively searching for something. "Dammit, where the hell did my keys go?!"

Spot means it's something you're not actively trying to locate. "Oh look, there's an elephant on top of the hospital."

[jiriku]

I suppose the ultimate reason is "because Search used to be a class feature of the rogue in AD&D (and earlier)". So they made it a skill (plus the Trapfinding class feature) in 3.0. And then they realized that they needed something else to model people just "noticing" things.

Overlapping, but not fully covered: Search is iconically a rogue skill, and rogues are iconically intelligent. Spot is iconically a ranger skill, and rangers are iconically wise.

DINGDINGDING! Correct answers! The division is a holdover from earlier editions.

In 1e D&D, the thief class had Finding/Removing Traps and Hear Noise as class feature. Only a thief could do these things; he got a flat level-based percentage, with a bonus for high Dexterity. Spotting an oncoming monster was accomplished by both groups rolling for surprise.

There weren't any standard rules for locating hidden things that weren't traps or noticing things that weren't monsters; modules from the day would usually say something like "A diligent search will locate the key with a 35% chance of success" or "a player has only 1 chance in 12 to notice that the wooden door has been bolted shut from the inside."

[DonEsteban]

Just to reiterate:
Spot does not require an action.
Search does require an action.

Search means you're actively searching for something. "Dammit, where the hell did my keys go?!"

Spot means it's something you're not actively trying to locate. "Oh look, there's an elephant on top of the hospital."

This is true, but you can make a spot check as a move action.

GM: The two goblins are running down a hallway. It is only scarcely lit by a few torches.

Player: "I chase after them!"
*GM makes a spot check for the Player at -5 for being "distracted" to notice two more goblins hiding in the shadows.

Player: "I carefully follow them."
*GM makes a spot check for the Player to notice the goblins.

Player: "I carefully follow them and look out for more goblins hiding in the shadows.
*GM makes an (additional?) spot check for the Player at a +2 bonus. This requires a move action.
GM: "There's nobody else here."
Player: "I look again."
GM: "Why not." *rolls another spot check.

[Volomon]

It's because SPOT is passive. Search is ACTIVE. Mean you actively decide whether you search for something or not, so you have to say your searching where your searching and everything else. SPOT the DM says roll me a spot check you do not have to active the skill because you do not just suddenly turn on your eyes and ears (Listen is automatically called out by DM) or nose for that matter.

Hence the difference.

Also normally you do not get to reroll spot/listen as DonEsteban example does not follow.

[Volomon]

One could argue this:

An enemy Rogue is using Hide to escape detection. For argumentative purposes, he doesn't move. Your Spot skill is too low to detect him, even on a 20. Would you use Search to find him then?

No you can only use listen every time he moves silently. You also get spot though to see him. No you can't search for them because you don't know they exist that would be meta-gaming which means your using outside knowledge to find him. Which any DM would/should lay the smack down on you for it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

No you can only use listen every time he moves silently. You also get spot though to see him. No you can't search for them because you don't know they exist that would be meta-gaming which means your using outside knowledge to find him. Which any DM would/should lay the smack down on you for it.

But if the character searched a chair a rogue was hiding behind without the player knowing anyone was there, that search would reveal the rogue (or the rogue would have to switch hiding places, with ensuing hide/ms spot/listen checks).

[FelixG]

No you can only use listen every time he moves silently. You also get spot though to see him. No you can't search for them because you don't know they exist that would be meta-gaming which means your using outside knowledge to find him. Which any DM would/should lay the smack down on you for it.

Dm: "The rogue runs down a passageway and through adoor on the left."
Player: "Ok i follow in carefully."
Dm: "The room has no windows and no chimney and the door is the only way in." DM rolls a spot check, player doesnt best the rogues hide. "You dont seem him anywhere."
Player: "Ok i will search around for him while the rest of the party guards the only apparent way out."
Dm: "You cant search for a rogue, that would be meta-gaming."
Player: "..."

[Orzel]

Search is when you are looking for something and see it. It's looking for something out of the ordinary.


Spot is when you aren't looking for something and just happen to see it. It's looking for ordinary occurrence.

You can't search for hidden people because when you hide well, you don't change anything to make it out of the ordinary. If you do change stuff, your hide check was bad.

If the rogue flipped a chair to hide, maybe you'd get a search attempt. But his Hide roll would've been a 1 or 2 anyway.

[Peregrine]

This is true, but you can make a spot check as a move action.

Indeed, though not quite the way your example would have it. Quoth the SRD...

Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

So the scenario would be more like...

Player: "I carefully follow them and look out for more goblins hiding in the shadows.
*GM makes a spot check for the player at a +2 bonus, no action required*
GM: "There's nobody else here."
*hidden goblin moves or player is otherwise alerted that he missed something*
Player: "I look again."
*GM makes a spot check for the player as a move action*

Oh, and yes, Searching should let you turn up a Hiding character. Not necessarily because your Search check beats their Hide check, but because your Search negated some aspect of cover or concealment that the Hide check relied on, or else it puts you closer to the character and you pass another Spot check with a lower distance penalty.

[Paul H]

Hi

Yet another analogy..........

You drop your keys.

You look (active) for your keys. [Search]
Yor partner notices (passive) your keys on the floor [Spot]

Just a quick note - Pathfinder also uses Perception for both.

Cheers
Paul H

[ericgrau]

Spot is to notice, wis. With search you already see everything in front of you quite easily, but you go through it methodically and logically. That's int. Often when searching, you can't even see everything until you start moving things, and when you do finally get to something it's right in front of you and trivial to see. Then wis is even less useful b/c it goes from useless to overkill.

When the milk in the fridge is right in front of your face but you don't see it? Wis. When you empty the fridge one item at a time to find your missing item, that's systematic and methodical, that's int.