Monsters with inappropriate CR

[DonEsteban]

Hi playgrounders,

are there any lists of creatures whose CR rating is commonly regarded either too high or too low? Or creatures who can be considerably stronger or weaker based on other circumstances such as terrain?


Edit: Here's an ongoing list of creatures mentioned. I didn't verify...

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Under-CRed:
Just about anything (MM2)
Aboleth (MM)
Adamantine Horror (MM2)
Allip (MM)
Beholder (MM)
Catoblepas (MM2)
Clockwork Horror (MM2)
Dire Ape (MM)
Many dire wolves (MM)
Dracotaur? (MM3)
Drowned (MM3)
Dragons (MM et al.)
Elemental Weird (MM2)
Fleshraker (MM3)
Forest Sloth (MM2)
Hobgoblin Warsoul (MM5)
Ibrandlin (MoF)
Immoth (MM2)
Low-level swarms (MM et al.)
That damned crab (Web)
Orc (MM)
Planetar (and other good outsiders, MM)
Remorhaz (MM)
Vorr? (FF)

Over-CRed:
Azer (MM)
Grick (MM)
Mephits (MM)
Ogre Mage? (MM)
Treant (MM)

[hamishspence]

The Adamantine Horror in MM2 is famously overpowered for its CR.

[Tyndmyr]

Obviously, there's that damned crab.

A generic MM Orc is under CRed. It's 1/2 cr, yet is better than many CR 1s.

Very low level swarms might be under CRed, on the basis that they're harder than usual for parties to deal with early on. This goes away quickly, though.

Likewise, Dire Ape is kind of a blender for melee types at CR2. Not horrible, but probably could be boosted to 3 legitimately.

[jiriku]

Hobgoblin Warsoul from MMV is my personal favorite. At CR 8 it casts as a 9th-level wizard, has 10 monstrous humanoid hit dice, +20 in racial ability bonuses AND the elite array, plus useful spell-like abilities and built-in minions. This is so much better than a CR 8 8th-level wizard that it's kind of silly.

[jmbrown]

Step 1: Crack open MM2
Step 2: Point to any page
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!

Clockwork Horror? A CR9 creature who can cast disintegrate, implosion (level 9 spell), and disjunction (another level 9 spell), save DC 15+ spell level AT WILL.

Seriously, who sat down and said "Yes, this is a decent challenge for a party of 9th level characters!" The supreme munchkin players among munchkins?

Really, any creature in MM2. Catoblepas? A CR6 huge monster that fire a save or die death ray every 1-4 rounds.

[ExtravagantEvil]

Isn't aboleth also apart of this agregation?

[Eldariel]

Yeah, That Damn Crab is the posterchild; you aren't beating it without either an extremely überoptimized party, or characters specifically built to beat it (or luck in having said characters in normal game).

Fleshraker [MM3] is pretty bad (also broken animal companion/wildshape form for Druids who weren't good enough) & just about every Dragon, Beholder and good Outsider is either par de course or insanely overpowered, depending on whether you consider all the other monsters over-CRd or not.

[hamishspence]

Step 1: Crack open MM2
Step 2: Point to any page
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!

Clockwork Horror? A CR9 creature who can cast disintegrate, implosion (level 9 spell), and disjunction (another level 9 spell), save DC 15+ spell level AT WILL.

Seriously, who sat down and said "Yes, this is a decent challenge for a party of 9th level characters!" The supreme munchkin players among munchkins?

I mentioned this:

The Adamantine Horror in MM2 is famously overpowered for its CR.

The other Clockwork Horrors aren't so bad.

Another source for unbalanced monsters: Monsters of Faerun. The Ibrandlin- a Gargantuan wingless dragon, has a very low CR (something like CR ?)

[Milskidasith]

Revived Fossil Baboon is pretty OP for CR 1; DR 10/adamantine, a decent AC, decent damage (multiple natural attacks with damage bonuses), and 28 HP. Besides being stupidly vulnerable to turning, it's pretty much unbeatable for a level 1 party.

[Zore]

Allips are pretty bad, CR 3 they are incorporeal and have a decent flight speed and can drain wisdom with touch attacks. Most parties shouldn't have extraordinary trouble with it, but they do have an Int of 11 which means a lot of popping in and out of the environment. A few good rolls can cripple a low level party, especially since the melee'rs are going to be having significant trouble hitting it even with magical weapons.

[Eldariel]

Allips are pretty bad, CR 3 they are incorporeal and have a decent flight speed and can drain wisdom with touch attacks. Most parties shouldn't have extraordinary trouble with it, but they do have an Int of 11 which means a lot of popping in and out of the environment. A few good rolls can cripple a low level party, especially since the melee'rs are going to be having significant trouble hitting it even with magical weapons.

Uhm, "most parties wouldn't have trouble with it"? It's a supposedly alright challenge for level 1 party; you'll have a hard time finding a level 1 party that could deal with it at all. Turning it is a fool's errand and Wisdom Drain tends to disable the (typically low Touch AC) Divine Caster real fast. And it sorta heals with each hit and has 26 HP. And that's without even accounting for its Babble which means the guy who could deal the damage is likely disabled.

They don't kill particularly fast but they're extremely durable (hard to hit, hard to damage, "regenerates" damage and turning is useless as it just runs through walls then until it wears off; and that's against an effective 6 HD monster), hard to affect and have a reliable, hard-to-resist attack.


Lesser evil, but still insanely tough monster for its CR, is Shadow. Incorporeals in general hurt but Allip, having Intelligence, is particularly obnoxious attacking from within walls, Babbling and just wreaking havoc.

[DonEsteban]

Thanks for your advice. So it seems nobody has compiled a well-thought-out "Dungeon Masters Beware!" list so far.

I'll file that incredible crab under "typo"! It got corrected in Stormwrack, too...

I think I remember someone mentioning Ogre Mage in this category...

[Zaydos]

Thanks for your advice. So it seems nobody has compiled a well-thought-out "Dungeon Masters Beware!" list so far.

I'll file that incredible crab under "typo"! It got corrected in Stormwrack, too...

I think I remember someone mentioning Ogre Mage in this category...

Well ogre mage is one of the few creatures I've killed a PC with... but that had more to do with the character being woefully under-optimized and rushing into a melee with several enemies at once (that and a max damage critical hit). I haven't really found them all that powerful.

[Saph]

I think I remember someone mentioning Ogre Mage in this category...

Ogre Mage is in the "over-CRed" category. It has some handy abilities, but it's far too fragile for CR 8.

Our 9th-level party fought one in our Seven Kingdoms campaign. The ogre mage got a surprise round on us and hit us with its most powerful AoE attack from behind. It died before it got to take another action.

[Ernir]

Fleshrakers (MM3) are CR 2. They are not extraordinarily tough to kill, but with something that has four natural attacks (three of them poisonous), the hide skill to get a surprise round most of the time, and a special attack that gives them a full attack + rend + trip + grapple on every charge, you better be damn quick about it if you don't want the dino to live up to its name.

[Douglas]

The Immoth from MM2 is horrendously under-CRed. It is strictly more powerful by a substantial margin than a normal level 12 Sorcerer (which would have a well-deserved CR 12), yet its CR is 9.

[Optimator]

I remember Dracotaurs (sp?) being pretty damned dangerous for their CR.

[Mystic Muse]

There's a monster in the MM2 I believe called the Linnorm. CR 13 and casts as a 17th level cleric. Not sure if this is as bad as it seems to me but that sounds like inappropriate CR.

[Tyndmyr]

Generally speaking, any monster with offensive SLAs or casting well in excess of their character level is inappropriately CRed.

I'd agree on the Linnorm

[Flickerdart]

Elemental Weirds are CR12 and have 18th level Sorcerer spellcasting. Yep.

[Volthawk]

There's a monster in the MM2 I believe called the Linnorm. CR 13 and casts as a 17th level cleric. Not sure if this is as bad as it seems to me but that sounds like inappropriate CR.

Um, the Linnorms I see are CR 20, 25 and 28.

[Mystic Muse]

Um, the Linnorms I see are CR 20, 25 and 28.

Huh. Maybe I was thinking of Hit dice?

[Volthawk]

Huh. Maybe I was thinking of Hit dice?

Yeah. Gray Linnorms have 13HD.

[Mystic Muse]

Yeah. Gray Linnorms have 13HD.

Ah. Never mind then.

[Cuaqchi]

Away from my books but Remorhaz can be really nasty. Swallow whole (~8d6/round), weapon destruction, burrowing, all at about CR7-8.

[Toliudar]

On the other side of the equation, I'd say that Azer, Gricks, Mephits, and Treants are probably overrated by at least 1.

[hamishspence]

Elemental Weirds are CR12 and have 18th level Sorcerer spellcasting. Yep.

Worse- their regeneration does not specify what overcomes it. The 3.5 update didn't say, either. So RAW, they are like the Tarrasque- super-regenerators.

The two Weirds in Frostburn at least specified that their regeneration could be overcome by something.

[arguskos]

Voors. DAMMIT VOORS!! *shakes fist in impotent rage* From MM4 comes the Voor, a monster that pretty much defines "Glass Cannon". It has a crapload of attacks (6 total, 4 of which are 20 ft reach each of which does 1d6+6 on a +10 atk, the other 2 are 10 ft that deal 1d6+3 on a +8), has DR 5/good, has SR 15, is immune to fire and acid and resistant to cold/electric 10, has a Climb speed, has blindsense 120 ft, rends for a bunch of damage, and has Combat Reflexes. The issue? It has 37 hp.

CR? FOUR.

[Draz74]

Good Outsiders in general already got a mention, but the Planetar in particular has always just made me laugh with how under-CR'ed it is.

Let's take a Cleric 17, make him Large, give him good DR and SR and resistances, regeneration, shapechanging, nice stat boosts, a buttload of extra skillpoints, and a large array of useful SLAs ... and call it CR 16. What?

... And here I was, thinking Cleric was a pretty strong class ... but apparently not ...

[thubby]

direwolves are a good fight when they're alone, but their CR doesnt rise as much as the actual difficulty in killing a group of them because they pretty much always trip whatever they hit.