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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    To the original poster - it depends on what you think HP's measure. Personally I view HPs as more of a "percentage" thing. A basic guardsman dealing 6 points of damage with a sword is going to register as a decapitation or disembowelment on most 1st-level Commoners or Wizards. He's dealt roughly 100% of the target's hit point damage, so that should register as such. But if he's going up against a level 20 Fighter, I'd describe 6hp worth of damage as a minor scratch on his leg. It's dealt an extremely small portion of his total hit points available.
    That's been the argument for hp since the first versions of the game, and most people acknowledge that it holds up pretty well for "two guys hacking on each other with swords." It's situations outside of that where it starts to get a bit fuzzy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    If you believe D&D models reality, you need to either take less medication or more.
    More. The answer is always more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Reality is overrated. What you're looking for is called verisimilitude. Consistency within the concept of a make believe "reality".

    Don't think "how would George St. Pierre handle this lion", think "how would Drizzt Do'Urden handle this lion". Internal consistency is what you are looking for, not direct correlation between fantasy and the real world (the one with the big flaming ball of fire in the sky).
    Not only consistency, but "what is the reality I want to model?" The "reality" of Rambo is different from the "reality" of Nightmare on Elm Street, and both are different from the "reality" of Full Metal Jacket.

    It is highly, highly unlikely that anyone really wants to model the real world. In the real world, adventurers would have a life span measured in weeks, if not days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haarkla View Post
    Realism is a virtue D&D does not possess enough of.

    All systems should attempt to model reality modified by a particular set of conditions. E.g. magic, monsters, superpowers. Obviously, this has to be balanced against playability and simplicity.
    No, thanks. I went through my simulationist phase. I want the 'reality' of Lord of the Rings - which is far removed from actual reality. If LotR was realistic, the Frodo would have died of starvation or been eaten. For games, I want a "reality" that allows a three-and-a-half foot n00b to take on the most potent avatar of evil in the universe.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaww View Post
    So, you get too tired of evading and then you die?
    Too tired FROM evading. Running out of energy to block and dodge blows. So, then, you start getting actual wounds (running low on HP!), and then eventually die.

    Getting tired might also involve minor wounds and pulled muscles and bruises and such, so that it doesn't go away overnight.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaww View Post
    So, you get too tired of evading and then you die?
    Yes. The more energy you spend, the slower you get, and eventually you're going to run into the business end of someone's sword because your reflexes are shot.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaww View Post
    So, you get too tired of evading and then you die?
    Or you lose your cold blood/focus, and can't defend any more.

    Or you can't actually defend anymore, because you just have no way, you're being overwhelmed.

    Or you literally bowed down to your feet in clunky attempt to make sword blow land on your chest, instead of unarmored legs, that you don't really have any way to prevent the next one from landing.

    And other stuff, and combination of everything.

    Seriously, it's a game of imagination my good Ladies and Gentlemen!
    Last edited by Spiryt; 2010-09-03 at 03:49 PM.
    Avatar by Kwarkpudding
    The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
    Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.

    Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    Yes. The more energy you spend, the slower you get, and eventually you're going to run into the business end of someone's sword because your reflexes are shot.
    So, the higher I pump my dex, and the more I dodge, the faster I'll get tired and die!

    The secret is to constantly find ways to deny yourself your dex. Then, you'll never get tired.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Dodging, taking blows to the armor (there's a reason heavy armor is fought with bludgeoning weapons), getting bruised, and so forth. Higher constitution grants you higher endurance, letting you withstand more.

    If an attack misses your AC, you were able to react in time well enough to avoid it with little effort, or the foe aimed poorly, or you blocked it with a shield, or you deflected it with your armor (rather than it impacting on your armor), or so on.
    Last edited by Esser-Z; 2010-09-03 at 03:51 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    So, the higher I pump my dex, and the more I dodge, the faster I'll get tired and die!

    The secret is to constantly find ways to deny yourself your dex. Then, you'll never get tired.
    Yes, the faster you move, the more energy you spend, and your system can't catch up.

    Remember, always work on your cardio along with other motor functions. The Ghost and the Darkness
    Avatar by Kwarkpudding
    The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
    Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.

    Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    If you have 20 lvls of fighter and get too tired of anything in less than ten minutes (100 rounds) just jump in the river with your full plate on... To explain certain situations fighters should have superpowers and for some they should less stamina than us. No logic here...

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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Oddly enough, swimming in armor really isn't that difficult. I've done it. If it's well fitted at all, it doesn't restrict movement much(if it did, it'd suck in combat). The weight is mostly compensated for by the increased density of water.

    I suppose if I was wearing something heavier than chain, it would have sucked more, but it wasn't especially hard.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by esrz22 View Post
    If an attack misses your AC, you were able to react in time well enough to avoid it with little effort, or the foe aimed poorly, or you blocked it with a shield, or you deflected it with your armor (rather than it impacting on your armor), or so on.
    I apologize for double post. Are you trying to say that a fighter in heavy armor (higher AC) can dodge a blow with more ease than a rogue in light armor (lower AC)? Concerning aim, that is just an attack roll and it has nothing to do with your armor class.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaww View Post
    I apologize for double post. Are you trying to say that a fighter in heavy armor (higher AC) can dodge a blow with more ease than a rogue in light armor (lower AC)? Concerning aim, that is just an attack roll and it has nothing to do with your armor class.
    You are using a different definition of "avoid". A more proper term could be "deflect" or even "soak" (don't bother with DR and deflection ac atm). Armor doesn't remove the impact from our body, just spreads or deflects it. A sword pointed at your chest is much less likely to kill with armor because if the attack angle isn't 'just' right, it'll hit the armor with an angle that makes it escape instead of penetrate.

    So armor ac can, yes, include dodging because a movement can put the incoming attack at an angle at which the armor will deflect it.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaww View Post
    I apologize for double post. Are you trying to say that a fighter in heavy armor (higher AC) can dodge a blow with more ease than a rogue in light armor (lower AC)? Concerning aim, that is just an attack roll and it has nothing to do with your armor class.
    No. The Fighter is better at deflecting blows with his armor. The rogue dodges, avoiding attacks entirely. The Fighter, meanwhile, shifts his body so that his armor catches the attack and redirects it harmlessly away. Or, alternatively, the blow just fails to harm him through his heavy armor.

    Snake: HIVEMIND!
    Last edited by Esser-Z; 2010-09-03 at 04:03 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaww View Post
    I apologize for double post. Are you trying to say that a fighter in heavy armor (higher AC) can dodge a blow with more ease than a rogue in light armor (lower AC)? Concerning aim, that is just an attack roll and it has nothing to do with your armor class.
    Ever watch hockey? Weight aside, they're wearing pretty close to a full suit of "armor". Hockey players can be pretty agile.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by esrz22 View Post
    Snake: HIVEMIND!
    :p I learned that when people were bitching about "breast" plate. "breast" plate is a horrible, horrible idea because it makes lethal attacks to the chest easier than if she didn't wear it.
    Incidentally, armor spikes are bad on most locations for the same reason(that and people would cut themselves trying to dress you up).
    Last edited by Snake-Aes; 2010-09-03 at 04:07 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Snake-Aes View Post
    :p I learned that when people were bitching about "breast" plate. "breast" plate is a horrible, horrible idea because it makes lethal attacks to the chest easier than if she didn't wear it.
    Unless it's magic armor. Then all bets are off!

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Encumbrance matters, ever tried running with weights on your ankles? 6 pounds on each leg is rather heavy.

    esrz22 I think your logic doesn't hold water. It is easier to shift with an armor that has a higher armor check penalty? Fighter in light armor should shift his position with less success than when he is wearing heavy armor?

    Snake-aes This is the way we (my group) interpreters it to, so we use mending etc. after combat on weapons and armor. + I agree about armor spikes.
    Last edited by Kaww; 2010-09-03 at 04:16 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Heavier armor is capable of redirecting more powerful blows, and has more surface area to do so. Therefore, a man in plate has an easier time using it to catch and/or deflect attacks than a man in lighter armor. The lighter armored man, though, is likely better at moving his body to completely avoid the attack.

    Two different kinds of negating attacks.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaww View Post
    Encumbrance matters, ever tried running with weights on your ankles? 6 pounds on each leg is rather heavy.

    esrz22 I think your logic doesn't hold water. It is easier to shift with an armor that has a higher armor check penalty? Fighter in light armor should shift his position with less success than when he is wearing heavy armor?

    Snake-aes This is the way we (my group) interpreters it to, so we use mending etc. after combat on weapons and armor. + I agree about armor spikes.
    It's not that it is easier to shift. it's that the "difference per angle" a shift in position makes to not suffer a blow is much greater if you can rely on a scraping attack not hurting you.
    A fair analogy is the increased relative value of a damage reduction when you have a % damage immunity of the same type. An armor bonus would be the % immunity, while the shifting would be the reduction.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    There's a guy who ripped out a leopard's tongue, IIRC. Don't recall any stories about lions.
    My first link was a description of a masaai warrior doing the same with a lion. This might help anyway.
    Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-09-03 at 04:49 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaww View Post
    This doesn't exist either, but let us use the same stats for a unarmed human fighter and lion (since we are human and they exist in game and we are only talking about the mechanic here and there and also advantages of race, human over species, lion). 10,10,10,11,11,11. Human fighter no equip. How does he stand, no matter how much optimization you use?
    Um, I point out that your prior arbitrary conditions had nothing to do with the issue under discussion, and your response is to impose an even more arbitrary condition? 10s and 11s only is not how the real world works. It's a completely irrelevant corner case.

    As for the HP/AC discussion, it's not important to impose an internally consistent paradigm of health/defense that is comprehensive over all or even many combat and non-combat situations. All that matters is that the description you give for one particular situation makes sense for that situation. You can justify just about any overarching explanation of how HP or AC works, whether it be toughness, luck, skill, dodging, parrying, or whatever. Why dig deeper than that?

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by braxsus View Post
    Its just a HUGE suspension of disbelief..

    My example has been Wildlife..

    In reality,there is no man alive either a MMA fighter, professional Boxer, or Worlds strongest man or whatever that would EVER last more then 10 seconds in an unarmed confrontation with an angry, aggressive, hungry 550+lb Adult Lion bent on killing them

    Now in D&D, what level does the same encounter become a cake walk for an unarmed fighter ? 5, 6?
    Skimming through this, I've got to say you're wrong here. Recently, there was a farmer in Africa who managed to not only defend himself against a jaguar, but also killed it... by ripping out its freaking tongue.

    Not the link to what I described above, but still appropriate. Suck it, nature!

    EDIT: And kind of ninja'd.
    Last edited by Thrice Dead Cat; 2010-09-03 at 05:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by averagejoe; 2010-09-03 at 08:02 PM.

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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by liquid150 View Post
    {Scrubbed}
    And I ate an airplane. Pics/documentation by a reliable source or it didn't happen.
    Last edited by averagejoe; 2010-09-03 at 08:03 PM.

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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    And I ate an airplane. Pics/documentation by a reliable source or it didn't happen.
    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by averagejoe; 2010-09-03 at 08:03 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by liquid150 View Post
    {Scrubbed}
    I prefer mine plane. Spelling totally intended.

    Honestly, I don't want realism in my D&D. I want to fight demons, evil gods, and dragons. Not Bob the next door neighbor who stole my cable.
    Last edited by averagejoe; 2010-09-03 at 08:04 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Skimming through this, I've got to say you're wrong here. Recently, there was a farmer in Africa who managed to not only defend himself against a jaguar, but also killed it... by ripping out its freaking tongue.

    Not the link to what I described above, but still appropriate. Suck it, nature!

    EDIT: And kind of ninja'd.
    There are no jaguars in Africa.

    And article you linked is about killing cougar with 4 rifle bullets.

    It would need someone with better knowledge, but I freaking doubt that big cats of prey have so fragile tongues that human can rip it out easily in the fight...
    Avatar by Kwarkpudding
    The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
    Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.

    Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    It would need someone with better knowledge, but I freaking doubt that big cats of prey have so fragile tongues that human can rip it out easily in the fight...
    I believe he meant this article.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Human muscles are capable of surprising strength, especially in the presence of adrenalin. And the tongue is connected by a relatively small area...

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default HP

    My explanation of HPs is found in the spell "Harm." From way back in the day (that is 2E to 3E) it removed all but 1d4 of the target's hit points.

    From that I deduce that humans have 1d4 hit points. All the rest is magical. In my gameworld fighters really do get spears in their necks, pull them out, and keep going. Until they are out of supernatural hit points: after that, it's just flesh and blood for the last d4.

    If you want to represent realistic differences between people, that is what stats are for. A guy with CON 16 is a lot tougher than one with CON 10; a dude with STR 18 is going to curb-stomp two or three ordinary STR 10 guys.

    But classes... classes are supernatural. Their benefits - like HP - are magical.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: The reality of the game

    Okay, after reading several discussions like this, I've come to a conclusion:

    Most people don't give enough credit to all the crazy **** going on in the Real World.

    Humans have survived from having iron bars shot through their skulls, aeroplane crashes against mountainsides, falling from terminal velocity and having been drowned for hours. In the past, not only did men face dangerous beasts with little to no equipment, they were expected to in order to count as adults.

    The fact that any of us are here is testament to craziness of humanity, and by extent, the real world.

    I can't honestly believe people keep bitching about imaginary warriors surviving a few sword blows, when there have been people who've crawled through frozen steppes with their legs cut or climbed sheer cliffs after being shot full of bullets.

    Even ordinary life defies common sense to the point that many people find it necessary to explain things away with ghosts, aliens, mass hypnosis or a variety of forum-unfriendly subjects, why is it such a sore spot that a game about heroic warriors contains unlikely survivals from time to time?
    "It's the fate of all things under the sky,
    to grow old and wither and die."

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