[3.P] How often should creatures get general feats?

[Endarire]

Question
Let's assume feat power remains as-is. How often should all creatures get general feats?

Sample Feat Progressions
In 3.5, cretaures get a general feat at 1HD, 3HD, and every 3HD thereafter.

In Pathfinder, cretaures get a general feat at 1HD, 3HD, and every 2HD thereafter.

In Frank & K's Tome articles, cretaures get a general feat at HDs 1 through 6 and at every 3HD thereafter. This assumes creatures use 3.P feats, not Tome feats.

In some house rules, creatures get a feat at every HD.

[Esser-Z]

Let's assume feat power remains as-is.

That is to say, horribly incredibly amazingly inconsistent between feats?

[Urpriest]

First level, third, and every three thereafter, like players. They should also have CR and ECL equal to their hit dice. Ideally, all monsters would be built from monster classes like those developed by the homebrewers on this board.

[Esser-Z]

I was under the impression 'creature' here meant everyone. I like the PF every other level style. Every level is too much, but every third isn't really that many.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

First level, third, and every three thereafter, like players. They should also have CR and ECL equal to their hit dice. Ideally, all monsters would be built from monster classes like those developed by the homebrewers on this board.

Those are guidelines at best. CR and HD don't really have to coincide.

Animals for instance have low int, no magical abilities, no damage reduction. They tend to have a CR much less than their HD.

Same with any other creature, it's abilities determine it's CR. not HD.

[Endarire]

"Creature" refers to everyone. This seemingly affects PCs most.

[Elfin]

Personally, I sort of like the every-three-levels setup, and I've never deviated from it in an actual game - but the PF or D20r systems definitely work well.

Every level, though? I don't like that at all.

[Eldariel]

I'm running 1, 2 and every 2 levels thereafter with some Heritage/Racial & Regional bonus feats (level 1 has a Regional bonus and Racial, and every 5 levels there-after come with a Racial). Seems to work rather well tho it's still kinda on the short supply. What I do know is that 3.5 is woefully insufficient for anything but absolute core for a focused build (for example, you can't really make a competent archer and melee Fighter without lots of work 'cause you don't have the feats to be competent at both). As such, even a large increase is kinda sunken into the feat hungriness of the system especially with the hundreds of options with all the splats.

[Zaq]

"Big" feats should be gotten as standard for 3.5. "Little" feats could be gained more frequently, up to every non-big-feat level if desired. This is, unfortunately, usable only in a relatively narrow paradigm (i.e. a GM looking over four or five players) rather than a widely applied one (i.e. a GM creating or updating every new monster the party sees, or creating a set of rules for doing so), because it's sometimes blurry to see what qualifies as a big feat or a little feat. The rule of thumb is "if it doesn't significantly change how your character operates, it's a little feat." There's a lot of gray area (take, say, Keen-Eared Scout. It definitely makes a character a new class of lowercase-s scout, but they're still just making Listen checks to know stuff, like they were before taking the feat. Big or little? Depends.) there, but it's a start.

[Urpriest]

Those are guidelines at best. CR and HD don't really have to coincide.

Animals for instance have low int, no magical abilities, no damage reduction. They tend to have a CR much less than their HD.

Same with any other creature, it's abilities determine it's CR. not HD.

Animals have low CR compared to their HD because they lack interesting features. If they got cool class features like this forum's monster classes they would be able to have CR=HD.

[Fax Celestis]

I prefer standard D&D's one-every-three with an additional feat every fourth level of the same class. A rogue 9, for instance, gets feats at 1 3 4 6 8 9.

[PId6]

I houserule it as two at 1st, and one every other odd level. It's basically the PF version, but the extra feat at 1st level helps differentiate 1st level characters from one another and makes prereqs a bit easier to get.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Animals have low CR compared to their HD because they lack interesting features. If they got cool class features like this forum's monster classes they would be able to have CR=HD.

Define 'cool'?

Plenty of interesting animal abilities, such as blood draining and pouncing and diseases swallowing whole and such.

Btw, constructs tend to have the same problem.


It has a lot to do with HD/CR advancement. Dragons/outsiders, 1 CR per 2 HD. Aberration, construct, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, ooze, plant, undead, vermin 4 HD per 1 CR.

It takes into account BAB, saves, and resistances/immunities and similar.

So, again, HD and CR really have little to do with each other, and rarely are ever equal in any creature, standard being within 3 HD, but as much as at least triple the CR in HD.

[FMArthur]

I actually prefer a system that gives one every 3rd character level because so many feat requirements are designed around it. 3rd and 9th level requirements are the only real problems, though. A workaround that gives 'one every three levels' as many feats as the 'one every two levels' and at similar levels could be made by giving an additional feat at 2nd level and every 6 levels thereafter.

Nevermind, the 1/2 levels versions actually happen at odd levels; I thought they happened at even levels. This is actually worse than I thought because there are a lot more feats that require a 6th character level. Using the normal system but making level 3 and every 6th level afterward into 'double feat levels' works out equal and keeps feat requirements in line. I would bump it down to level 2 and every 6 levels afterward though just to smooth things over. There are also a few feats this helps that only require 2nd level characters, oddly enough.

[Urpriest]

Define 'cool'?

Plenty of interesting animal abilities, such as blood draining and pouncing and diseases swallowing whole and such.

Btw, constructs tend to have the same problem.


It has a lot to do with HD/CR advancement. Dragons/outsiders, 1 CR per 2 HD. Aberration, construct, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, ooze, plant, undead, vermin 4 HD per 1 CR.

It takes into account BAB, saves, and resistances/immunities and similar.

So, again, HD and CR really have little to do with each other, and rarely are ever equal in any creature, standard being within 3 HD, but as much as at least triple the CR in HD.

Again, this is true in current monster design. I just think it would be better if monsters were designed like the homebrew monster classes, with powers that legitimately make HD/CR/ECL equivalent. It would be a much more modular system, and properly done would avoid a lot of the balance problems that come with PC access to monsters.