[Dark Sun 4e] Renegade Templar

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Having just purchased the Dark Sun Campaign Setting book for 4e, I am completely hyped about Athas, and would like to make an Athasian character for a game I'm joining.

I've spoken with my DM and decided what I want to play is a Lawful Good character with the Templar theme who, thanks to the influence of the Veiled Alliance, swears off defiling and eventually turns on his sorcerer-king master, eventually becoming an Avangion, the embodiment of preserving. My DM has approved this idea.

The question now is just how to build this character. I'm guessing Human would make the most sense as a race, considering how humans are the dominant race everywhere, and I definitely need the Templar theme.

But other than that, I'm not sure what to pick.

In terms of classes, I know I want to either play a bard or a swordmage. Each has its pros and cons. The bard synergizes very well with the Templar theme because the theme is leader-related, which is what a bard is. Bards also get access to better armor at the beginning (chainmail and light shields). The downsides of the bard, for me, mainly are because of the image the bard projects, that of a wandering musician and storyteller. While the image of a templar rocking out to cast his spells is funny, I'm not going for funny here. The swordmage, on the flipside, has no such image problems, but it doesn't really have as much protection, armor-wise. I'm not certain if there's been errata for the swordmage that effectively keeps it in its original armor proficiencies, like there has been for the avenger and the barbarian, so that's an issue as well.

Then there's the matter of paragon paths. I haven't heard anything optimizationwise about the DSCS, but the paths that interest me are the Praetor Legate and the Master Preserver. While the Master Preserver is based in the Veiled Alliance, I noticed the only requirement is to have an arcane class. The Praetor Legate might be good, flavorwise, but it might also cement me, flavorwise, into the service of Andropinus, and a Lawful Good character isn't good at betrayal, either to the Alliance or to his leader. The Master Preserver seems kind of primaly.

All I know for sure is that I want to be an Avangion at the end of it all.

Any suggestions?

[mobdrazhar]

Thematically i would say swordmage would fit better than bard for Templar. Also remember that if you have nothing in your off hand then you get a +3 AC bonus with Swordmage.

Haven't had a look at the PP in DSCS properly but will have a look when i get home for you. From what it sounds like though this may be what you are looking for.

Humans are the most prominant race in Athas and i believe that all Templars are human (there is even 1 city where all Templars are female).

[Urpriest]

Swordmages actually have really really good AC despite wearing leather, because they're Int based and have a class-based bonus. They've generally got better AC than bards.

If you look at the fluff for the Valorous Bard, you don't have to be a frilly singer-type to be a Bard. Bards can be very martial. Think of yourself as intoning hymns to your Sorceror-King, or battle-chants that catalog the preservers who died furthering the Veiled Alliance.

[KillianHawkeye]

Humans are the most prominant race in Athas and i believe that all Templars are human (there is even 1 city where all Templars are female).

The book says that "most" templars are human, so there must be a few from the other main races.

[Shatteredtower]

There isn't anything prohibiting any race from achieving templar status, though some deserve more explanation than others. Thri-kreen are an odd choice, for example, but you can find a way.

Similarly, the bard can work if you imagine yourself as the speaker for a sorcerer king, reciting laws and lore to whatever effect you feels best suits the effect you desire. The chanting of ritual does not always adhere to the forms of song. Patterns are used to facilitate memory, especially in a society with low rates of literacy. Besides, if song writing and singing was good enough for Richard I, it's good enough for those who serve at the pleasure of kings.

Service to the Oba lends itself to primal classes, by the way. Shaman would give you access to the voice for the ravaged paragon path.

Master preserver plays well to avangion, but you could also look to options in Complete Arcane, PHB2, or elsewhere. Some may not fit the campaign and some may need to be tailored. Discuss this with your DM.

[Zaydos]

Swordmage's have a good AC. 15 + their main attack stat as long as they have a sword in one hand and nothing in the other. That's assuming no optimization and just leather armor.

Unless its been errata'd (I don't keep up with 4e errata) they can take the feat for Hide Armor if that's still too little, although Improved Swordmage Warding from Arcane Power is better (+1 AC for a feat) if you have the Dex (13).

So they can end up with the AC to do the job fairly easily. Actually when I played one (a warding swordmage) I had the best defenses of anyone except for Will (I was also mainly dealing with strikers so it's not saying the most).

Bard I found disappointing in that campaign and the character playing one was generally the weakest and least useful in each encounter (Majestic Word was useful for the strikers but other than that).

If you do go Swordmage check out Dragon magazine if it's allowed in the campaign because many of the best Swordmage powers are in it.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, I did some more reading on the setting, and I found a way for bard to be pretty flavorful. From what I read about Balic, they venerate the heroes of the city as examples of good ol'-fashioned Balican values. For warlock templars, these heroes are vestiges you can call upon for aid.

For a bard, they'd serve as examples from which to draw inspiration. Instead of singing songs, you recite fables of the Balican heroes, drawing on their courage, cleverness, dutifulness and resourcefulness.

So I think I'll be a bard. Now as for class features, Valor or Cunning would both work, since Balicans value both, but I kind of like Valor more, since that seems more honorable. I'm now thinking of changing to half-elf for the Charisma and Constitution boosts, and having him be the illegitimate son of one of the city's Patricians with an elf slave, and pulled himself up by his bootstraps and made templarhood with a little help from his dad.

I'm unsure how the theme powers are taken, and if I'll be able to take bard powers too, given that Templar powers upgrade.

As for the paragon path, I'm thinking Praetor Legate. Instead of being a goody-goody Master Preserver, I'm thinking more like a more heroic version of Darth Vader, swearing off defiling for personal reasons but not really believing in the beliefs of the Veiled Alliance. His devotion is to Balic and he feels Andropinus is only a necessary evil, better than the other sorcerer-kings. Andropinus senses his feelings and is basically trying to convince him of the rightness of his cause. For some reason I imagine Andropinus being played by Ian McDiarmid.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm unsure how the theme powers are taken, and if I'll be able to take bard powers too, given that Templar powers upgrade.

You get the first power for free, but all the rest have to be taken in place of your normal power acquisition from your class.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Okay, I think I might have a rudmentary build now:

Name: Aethon
Race: Half-Elf
Class: Bard
Theme: Templar
Home City: Balic
Paragon Path: Praetor Legate
Epic Destiny: Avangion

Languages: Common, Elven, Giant

Attributes:

Strength - 13 (14)
Constitution - 16 (24)
Dexterity - 10 (12)
Intelligence - 14 (18)
Wisdom - 8 (10)
Charisma - 18 (28)

Skills: Arcana, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Streetwise

Feats:

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1 - Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
2 - Arcane Implement Proficiency (heavy blades)
4 - Versatile Expertise
6 - Templar's Dazing Fist
8 - Toughness
10 - Templar's Tugging Fist
11 - Versatile Master
12 - Paragon Defenses (retrained to Epic Will at level 21)
14 - Psychic Lock
16 - Disheartening Presence
18 - Benevolent Templar
20 - Improved Majestic Word
21 - Supreme Majesty
22 - Epic Resurgence
24 - Epic Reflexes
26 - Superior Initiative
28 - Epic Fortitude
30 - Rapid Regeneration

Powers:

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Level 1

At Will - War Song Strike, Vicious Mockery
Encounter - Shout of Triumph
Daily - Stirring Shout
Dilletante - Hand of Blight
Theme - Templar's Fist
Class Features - Majestic Word, Words of Friendship

Level 2

Utility - Reward the Obedient

Level 3

Encounter - Impelling Force

Level 5

Daily - Song of Discord

Level 6

Utility - Mantle of Might

Level 7

Encounter - Scorpion's Claw Strike

Level 9

Daily - Hymn of the Daring Rescue

Level 10

Utility - Berate the Weak

Level 11

Paragon Encounter - Obsidian Javelin

Level 12

Paragon Utility - Dustwalk

Level 13

Encounter - Insult of Passivity

Level 15

Daily - Satire of Evasion

Level 16

Utility - Song of Sublime Snowfall

Level 17

Encounter - Song of Summons

Level 19

Daily - Satire of Prowess

Level 20

Paragon Daily - Dictator's Judgment

Level 22

Utility - Climactic Chord

Level 23

Encounter - Fearsome Command

Level 25

Daily - Glare of Oppression

Level 26

Epic Utility - Wings of Gold

Level 27

Encounter - Fettering Glare

Level 29

Daily - Imperious Gaze

How's it look? Did I do it right?

[Urpriest]

I'd switch Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) and AIP around. You won't have a magic sword at first level, so AIP won't make a difference.

[mobdrazhar]

I'm unsure how the theme powers are taken, and if I'll be able to take bard powers too, given that Templar powers upgrade.

It Basically adds more powers to the list you can chose from as you level up.

The first power is similar to a class/racial power and thus you get it for free on top of anything else.

[Surrealistik]

IMHO Andropinis is not evil at all; at best he can be considered good, and at worst, unaligned. Here are two lore passages:

"Balic's sorcerer king takes care of his city, and the citizenry's civic pride is genuine_ Dictator Andropinis has established a democratic, at least in appearance, system ofgovernance, and Balic's strong ancestral tradition pairs well with the populace's love of theater and high culture."

"Andropinis fancies himself a statesman, and the prosperity of his city-state is a testament to his success. Balic is orderly, clean, and well defended. The templars of the city-state, called praetors, are elected to their office. Its people enjoy more freedom and luxury than those in other city-states.
A powerful defiler, the dictator has connected himself to Balican land, giving him influence over its psychic echoes and ancestral spirits. Andropinis teaches these techniques to initiates into his arcane tradition. Thus, Balican templars share in the sorcerer-king's power and do anything for him.
Despite being a defiler, Andropinis encourages love of Balican land and the use of primal power to strengthen its environs, making Balic ripe for later defiling. Balican civic myth praises heroic and dutiful ancestors who honored the land and protected the city-state."

Where's the evil? I'm just not seeing it. He sounds like a paragon of benevolent dictatorship. He genuinely cares about his city-state, his people, affords them superior freedoms and luxuries, honours his citizens and even tries to achieve an equilibrium with his environment.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

He also cracks down harshly on people who speak out against him and his templars, imprisoning and killing them for their insolence, and though he claims to have been elected, it's all a sham. He only allows the democratic process as long as it supports him. He personally rigs the elections of his templars as well, having "accidents" happen to undesirable candidates who manage to get into office. Also, note that the only reason he encourages the whole primal spirit thing is so the land is ripe for future defiling. Defiling is generally considered VERY VERY BAD by any average Athasian, so by extension, Andropinus is bad for doing it. The only reason they let him get away with it all is because he's a sorcerer-king, and thus is virtually untouchable. Like I said, I imagine him as being similar to Palpatine from Star Wars, manipulating democracy for his own ends. He does give the people all these things, but his intention behind them is always selfish.

Also, I'm wondering about the upgrading of my templar powers. Is improving them the ONLY thing I can do when I level it up? Because if I want to upgrade them all to the max, I think I won't be able to replace the 1st level bard encounter and daily power I have with more effective ones.

[Surrealistik]

He also cracks down harshly on people who speak out against him and his templars, imprisoning and killing them for their insolence, and though he claims to have been elected, it's all a sham. He only allows the democratic process as long as it supports him. He personally rigs the elections of his templars as well, having "accidents" happen to undesirable candidates who manage to get into office. Also, note that the only reason he encourages the whole primal spirit thing is so the land is ripe for future defiling. Defiling is generally considered VERY VERY BAD by any average Athasian, so by extension, Andropinus is bad for doing it. The only reason they let him get away with it all is because he's a sorcerer-king, and thus is virtually untouchable. Like I said, I imagine him as being similar to Palpatine from Star Wars, manipulating democracy for his own ends. He does give the people all these things, but his intention behind them is always selfish.

Any non-retconned sources that confirm this of Andropinis? I mean, if what you say is true, yes, he is rather Palpatine like and a case can actually be made for an evil alignment, otherwise, he is unquestionably a benevolent dictator.

Also, making sure the land achieves equilibrium so you can continue to use a resource is not inherently evil (granted it's not necessarily a 'good' act either); that'd be like saying responsible forestry is evil. While defilement may be perceived as a bad thing, it's not objectively evil; it all depends on how it's used and for what purpose.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

In a world that was ruined by unchecked defiling, defiling is going to be a big deal whether you're careful about it or not. When someone defiles, it takes life from the land, preventing you from farming there, thus being able to feed yourselves, and ruins any use it might have. It's not a resource Andropinis is careful about using, it's ruining the chances of survival for EVERYONE.

[Surrealistik]

Sure, his attempts to achieve environmental equilibrium are pragmatic rather than idealistic; I've noted that this is not necessarily a good act, but it sure as hell isn't evil.

Again, I just would like some (presently valid) sources that demonstrate him as deserving the evil alignment stated in the crunch; none of the 4e stuff so far released that I've read does at all. Granted, he did participate in an attempt at elven genocide, but if he essentially changed his ways to become an effective, ethical and responsible leader, presiding over happy and well kept citizenry I don't think he deserves to hold onto an evil alignment for that alone.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This doesn't really have much bearing on my character in any case, since he will end up with a group that ultimately opposes the sorcerer-kings, turning him against his master.

I'm more concerned with crunch than fluff at the moment, especially in regards to the character's power progression.

[Emongnome777]

If you play a templar that turns against your sorcerer-king, how do you keep your spellcasting? If I recall, templars are given their abilities from the SKs, so can be taken away. Granted, the Tyrian templars kept their abilities, so I'm not quite sure how that works now exactly. I'm at work so I don't have access to my books. Can somebody explain this?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I think the implication is that, in 4e, power once given can't be taken back. It's the reason why paladins and priests don't fall. Besides, I'm thinking of actually being less of a betrayer and more a conflicted servant. He never outright joins the Veiled Alliance, seeing them as dangerous rebels, but he sees the value in preserving, as Andropinis promotes responsible use of the land, and while Andropinis is a tyrant he feels he owes everything to him, since if Andropinis hadn't willed it, he wouldn't have been elected as a praetor in the first place. He even goes so far as to consider him a father figure, since his own Patrician father didn't really like him, as he was physical evidence of his debauched practices with his slaves. Andropinis, for his part, sees him as someone who can easily be manipulated, playing on his sense of honor to get him to do his job, and the fact that he's not a corrupt pig like other praetors means that he serves as a good example to the populace, which in turn reflects well on him as a dictator. Andropinis also believes that his naivete will fade eventually with a little coaxing, and even if it doesn't, he's too broken on the Balican virtue of dutifulness to truly rebel.

This may come in handy if the PCs need to bargain with the sorcerer-kings, since my character may appeal to his master for aid. Andropinis may basically be the Dark Sun version of Emperor Palpatine, but he's also the one most likely to listen to the PCs should the threat be big enough to concern him (the DM has hinted that near the end of the campaign, the PCs will be required to work with the SCs and the Dragon against Tithian to prevent him from freeing Rajaat).

[BlckDv]

As others have said, the Theme powers are more options, not required selections.

So at level 3 you can take Fearsome Command OR any normal level 3 Bard power.

At level 13 you can replace *any legal* Encounter power with Level 13 Fearsome Command OR any level 13 Bard Power. This means you could replace your level 1 Bard Encounter with level 13 Fearsome Command, and have both the level 3 and 13 versions of Fearsome Command as separate encounter powers, if you wanted.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Oh I know they're not required selections. But they look very tempting.

I wonder...would it be possible to just take the high-level versions of the powers without first taking them at lower levels?

[mobdrazhar]

Oh I know they're not required selections. But they look very tempting.

I wonder...would it be possible to just take the high-level versions of the powers without first taking them at lower levels?

You can take just the higher ones from what i understand, without taking the lower level versions of said powers.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've decided to do that, saving the Templar powers for the epic level selections. Does it still look like an effective setup? I also noticed I forgot to put the Virtue in there, but it's Virtue of Valor if the power and feat selections didn't already give it away.

[Shatteredtower]

...he's not a corrupt pig like other praetors...

So what you're telling us is that all of the other praetors used to laugh and call him names, and they never let your half-elf join in any praetor games.

Seriously though, it looks like a great concept. Have fun!

[mobdrazhar]

it should work fine

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Excellent. Thank you all. Now I need to decide what to name him. Since Balic appears to follow Greco-Roman influences, I thought of using the epithets of one of the Olympians as a name. I've got a few here, but I'm not sure which is the best:

Alexicacus ("restrainer of evil")
Apotropaeus ("he who averts evil)
Aegletes ("the radiant god")
Xenios (protector of strangers)
Horkios (keeper of oaths)
Aegiduchos/Aegiochos (bearer of the Aegis)
Tallaios ("Solar")

The first three are epithets applied to Apollo, and the other four are generally applied to Zeus. Which seems like the best one for this fellow, who while a servant of a tyrannical defiler becomes such a loyal preserver that he becomes the Avangion?

Also, I had a bit of a side-question that I wanted to ask for a friend. He's planning on playing a dragonborn fighter, multiclassing into sorceror or wizard to get more fire powers, and then taking the Inner Dragon paragon path followed by the Dragonheart epic destiny. I'm kind of concerned how this would work flavorwise, since there's only one Dragon in all of Athas with a particular epic destiny associated with becoming one of your own. What would be the best way to flavor this dray as he ascends in power?

[mobdrazhar]

The thing is that Dragons can come about from anyone with arcane power i believe (will have to check when i'm home with my books) but they are rare so it can happen and i think a creature with dragon blood running through it's veins would be more likely to assend to dragonhood than others. Why doesn't your friend look at playing a swordmage if he wants a fighter-esqe build with elemental damage?

oh and with regards to names some more suggestions are:
Agathon which means "good"
ANDRONIKOS which means "Man of Victory", wit is derived from Nike the goddess of victory
BERENICE which is an ancient Macedonian name meaning "Bringing Victory" (also derived from Nike)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The thing is that Dragons can come about from anyone with arcane power i believe (will have to check when i'm home with my books) but they are rare so it can happen and i think a creature with dragon blood running through it's veins would be more likely to assend to dragonhood than others. Why doesn't your friend look at playing a swordmage if he wants a fighter-esqe build with elemental damage?

oh and with regards to names some more suggestions are:
Agathon which means "good"
ANDRONIKOS which means "Man of Victory", wit is derived from Nike the goddess of victory
BERENICE which is an ancient Macedonian name meaning "Bringing Victory" (also derived from Nike)

He's going for a fighter/something else because of this. He doesn't want to play a someone who enhances his sword blows with elemental damage. He wants to play a straight-up warrior who also can shoot more fireballs from his mouth than the average dragonborn.

Also, in Athas, dragonborn are the creations of a sorcerer-king, the late Dregoth of Giustenal (who actually lives on as an undead and created the dragonborn to worship him so he could literally become a god instead of pretending to do so like Lalali-Puy and Tekutitlay).

I was under the impression that becoming a Dragon in Athas involved massive amounts of defiling, whereas with the Dragonheart, the idea is that your draconic power lies within you and when you reach the pinnacle of your abilities, your original form can't contain it any longer and you become a great wyrm of whatever color you choose.

[mobdrazhar]

He's going for a fighter/something else because of this. He doesn't want to play a someone who enhances his sword blows with elemental damage. He wants to play a straight-up warrior who also can shoot more fireballs from his mouth than the average dragonborn.

Also, in Athas, dragonborn are the creations of a sorcerer-king, the late Dregoth of Giustenal (who actually lives on as an undead and created the dragonborn to worship him so he could literally become a god instead of pretending to do so like Lalali-Puy and Tekitutlay).

I was under the impression that becoming a Dragon in Athas involved massive amounts of defiling, whereas with the Dragonheart, the idea is that your draconic power lies within you and when you reach the pinnacle of your abilities, your original form can't contain it any longer and you become a great wyrm of whatever color you choose.

Dray may be been created to be subservient however in the words of Jurassic Park "Life will always find a way. As a DM i see no issues with genetics being able to modify over time and "mutations" happening where Dray can eventually become a full dragon, even in Athas. It's the evolution of the Dray to cope with the enviroment that they have been thrust into

[KillianHawkeye]

I guess he could always turn into a drake instead....