Tonfas in [4th]

[Santra]

Hey everyone I am having an discussion with my DM. We are trying to decide tonfa weapon damage and everything how it would be in 4th ed.

I was saying.
+2 prof. 1d6 defensive

He is saying
+2 prof. 1d4 defensive, brutal 2(or something like that)

Everyone else is just saying make it a club. what are your thoughts.

[tcrudisi]

Well, for starters, the only difference between 1d4 brutal 2 and 1d6 is on a crit.

The average for each is 3.5 and 3.5. So really, there's not much difference.

I would also like to tell you my own opinion, but I have no idea what a tonfa is. What did it do in 3.5?

[kyoryu]

Refluff a cutting wheel

1d6, +2 proficient, defensive, off-hand, superior melee.

The only difference is that it wouldn't be a light blade.

Parrying dagger is another good choice to base it off of - same stats, except 1d4 and can be used as a rogue weapon.

[Zombimode]

I would also like to tell you my own opinion, but I have no idea what a tonfa is.

Its a modern subdual weapon mostly used by police and security forces. Its also very widespread. In germany every single policeman on the street carries one. Its not a weapon of war.

It is a rather sophisticated weapon and excels in its area of use: against an unarmored target its hits induce much pain but no serious wounds. While it is possible to use the tonfa for life threating strikes, its much harder to do so then like say a knife.

Against armor of any kind, shields or most non-human opponents its a laughable weapon. You would be much better off with a simple spiked club.

[kyoryu]

Well, for starters, the only difference between 1d4 brutal 2 and 1d6 is on a crit.

The average for each is 3.5 and 3.5. So really, there's not much difference.

I would also like to tell you my own opinion, but I have no idea what a tonfa is. What did it do in 3.5?

It's an Okinawan weapon (like Sai). It originated as a handle, and basically consists of a piece of wood about the length of a forearm with a piece sticking out at a 90 degree angle to one side, about 5 inches or so long.

Typically they would be held along the forearm by the shorter piece, so that they could lay along the length of the forearm. From there, you can punch with the extended end, or swing them out to strike. You could also use them to block with your forearm.

Some good pics are here

[Beorn080]

Its a modern subdual weapon mostly used by police and security forces. Its also very widespread. In germany every single policeman on the street carries one. Its not a weapon of war.

It is a rather sophisticated weapon and excels in its area of use: against an unarmored target its hits induce much pain but no serious wounds. While it is possible to use the tonfa for life threating strikes, its much harder to do so then like say a knife.

Against armor of any kind, shields or most non-human opponents its a laughable weapon. You would be much better off with a simple spiked club.

Tonfa aren't modern. Nightsticks are modern equipment, some of which resemble tonfa, but actual tonfa have been used for since ancient days in Okinawa.

IIRC, nightsticks, even the tonfa shaped ones, are typically lightweight and used to disarm attackers in mobs where unarmed and armed are mixed.

Tonfa, on the other hand, are rather weighty and made of solid oak, or similar hardwood. Getting hit with one properly is rather nasty and liable to break limbs.

Plus, they are used differently. Police nightsticks are typically used by grabbing the long end, and using the short extension as a hook. Tonfa use the short extension as the handle, allowing one to deflect blows, punch with the short side, and swing the long end in fast arcs.

I would say Kyoryu's is best.

[Zombimode]

Tonfa, on the other hand, are rather weighty and made of solid oak, or similar hardwood. Getting hit with one properly is rather nasty and liable to break limbs.

I dont think that the difference between an original tonfa and a tonfa-nightstick are as big as you might think. I would not be suprised if the modern tonfas are heavier because of the higher density of the rubber.

But all of this speculation and nitpicking aside, my point was that a tonfa is in comprasion to the other weapons D&D characters have at their disposal a pretty ill-suited tool for the tasks D&D characters are normaly up to.

A gladius (shortsword) for instance that seems to be the baseline for the tonfa stats here is a far more deadly weapon against humanoid and non-humanoid foes than the tonfa ever could hope to be.

I would say the tonfa is one of those weapons that are impossible to represent in a D&D system. D&D models deadly combat between armed humanoids or dangerous beasts and its weapons ordered by striking power. Thus a two handed axe or sword are the most powerfull weapons and daggers are the least powerfull. If one wanted to keep this hierarchy a tonfa would rank very lowly.

Im not saying that noone should give tonfas stats like they are presented here. What ever works for your games is cool. I just point out that those stats are pretty arbitrary and you could just as well make them 2W20 high crit brutal 10 weapons.

[Beorn080]

Rubber gives quite a bit more then oak. Spreads the impact out over a greater time frame and area.

[realbombchu]

The hero of Suikoden 2 (for the Sony Playstation) fought using 2 tonfa.

Anyway, I would use the 3.0 Oriental Adventures stats, with a +2 proficiency bonus and the other properties you think fit best. Maybe Defensive and High Crit. You also need to put it in a weapon group to add feat and power support.

[Urpriest]

I'd make it a club. The reason why: Crashing Tempest Style encourages monks to use clubs, which are not stereotypical monk weapons. The intent seems to be that clubs represent thinks like Tonfas and Nunchaku.

[Tiki Snakes]

I think as a superior weapon that counts as a club, is pretty close to a club, but also defensive, seems to be the way to go, perhaps.

Or you could go the Whip direction. Multiclass (and/or class specific?) feat giving training in it, and adding a property or two.

Hmm, yeah. Make it a simple weapon that basically counts as an off-hand club, with a feat that gives proficiency with it, makes it defensive.

So it would be -

Tonfa
Simple Melee One Handed Weapon
Cost; 5gp
Damage; 1d6
Proficiency; +2
Weight; 3lbs

Special - Counts as a Club for the purpose of feats and class features and powers.

Off-Hand

Group
Mace

Feat -
Tier: Heroic
Prerequisite: (13 dex, perhaps?)
You gain proficiency with the Tonfa. In addition, the Tonfa gains the defensive quality


Note - This makes it slightly better than the Parrying Dagger, except that the parrying dagger counts for the rogue's weapon talent class feature. I think personally that the parrying dagger is a bit restrictive and not a great weapon choice, so that feels about right.
In comparison, the Tonfa lacks the light blade group, so it loses out on a few nice feats, but as it counts as a club, it would still be a feasible weapon for not only monks, but the club-focused rogue build, and so on.

Without the proficiency feat, it's about as good as a Sickle and just as available.

And avoiding brutal keeps things simple, so less re-rolling at the table. High Crit just doesn't sound right, so none of that.