Jedi vs Ninja

[Cicciograna]

Imagine the most powerful Jedi pitted against the most powerful Ninja you can conceive. Who would win this battle, considering the inherent powers and abilities of each combatant?
Note: this question is not related to any particular game system, but is a mere speculation on the fluff of both concepts. [Maybe the Media section would have been more accurate...]

[gomipile]

So, Jedi vs. Swordsage then?

[HunterOfJello]

Lvl 20 Swordsage?

Lvl 20 Jade Phoenix Mage?



I think both could take out any Jedi, if equiped with a weapon and a spell pouch

[DragonOfUndeath]

a Jedi has precognition and The Force, but a Ninja has Kick-Ass stealth, assassin skillz. basically the Rule Of Cool demands a legion of Jedi Vs a legion of Ninja. the last Ninja and Jedi destroy whats left of the battle field and die in the process

[dsmiles]

Jedi...

Spoiler

Show

vs.

Ninja?

Spoiler

Show

I can't decide!!!!

[icefractal]

"Ninja" is a pretty broad term. Are we talking historical ninja? Action-movie ninja? Anime-style "martial arts sorcerers" ninja? Those aren't even close to the same ballpark.

Even Jedi vary a bit. Original movies "with effort, the strongest one can slowly lift a small spacecraft" Jedi, or EU "throw star destroyers into the sun" Jedi?

I don't think I've seen any ninja that can attack from across a solar system though, so if they start the battle far enough apart, I guess that would be advantage to an (EU) Jedi.

[Aotrs Commander]

Depends on the type of ninja, really. I think jedi would have difficulties against Naruto-style ninja (the specifics would depend on what two named characters were involved), for example.

[DragonOfUndeath]

single-blade lightsaber? double-blade lightsaber? 2 double-blade lightsabers? 2 single-blade lightsabers? all these Jedi would fight differently. you need to give us a battlefield and their battle-style to come up with an accurate result. BTW would Force Precognition tell a Jedi where a Ninja will strike from?

[Fouredged Sword]

Ninja rely on stealth and suprise. Jedi can see the future. Jedi has the edge.

[DragonOfUndeath]

only Jedi masters can see the future and even then it is hard to find the one that will happen (according to episode 2 at least)

[Spiryt]

I, of course, take Rickson by Armbar.

[DragonOfUndeath]

How high would a Jedi's Spot Check be? even with the Force Precognition ( maybe a +2-4 circumstance bonus) a mid-level Ninja would own a mid-level Jedi if the Jedi couldn't see the poisoned daggers flying from the shadows

[Aotrs Commander]

Also, any fair comparision would grant equal technological equipment to both sides, otherwise, the comparision is not jedi verses ninja, it becomes a question of flintlock rifle verses blaster rifle. So, either the jedi must have swords, or the ninja must have lightsabres.

At that point, it's a question of whether the ninja have supernatural powers or not. If not, then it's a caster verses noncaster question; if so, it depends of the relative power levels in question and how they interact.

The Naruto ninja, given a technological parity, would probably be on at least even, if not outright superiority in terms of force verses chakra (again, depending on the combatants in question), for example. Non-magic action-movie ninja...not so much.

(Also, the idea of Tenten with lightsabres is kind of fracking scary...)

[DragonOfUndeath]

make a lightsaber a +2 longsword or vorporal blade and Bingo! problem solved. i think we need to add details so:
Ardite a 30 year-old Human Jedi with 2 single bladed green lightsabers, he likes to use Force Lightning over any others and prefers the saber over Force powers. he should probably be around level 9-10 to make the fight interesting

[AvatarZero]

If you're taking historical ninja, humble assassins who used improvised weapons and disguise to kill nobles who were too proud to look at the faces of their servants (you know, the really boring version of ninja that some smartass always trots out during debates about ninja), then the Jedi would win. Reading people's intentions and being humble enough to talk to the people around them would work. Sith might have trouble with the second one.

If you're talking the mystical meditative ninja that people actually like, then it's a trick question. If ninjutsu existed in the same universe as the Force, it'd be an alternative Force tradition. You'd have stealthy force users vs lightsaber-wielding force users, Scoundrel/Force Adept/Force Disciple vs Jedi/Jedi Knight/Jedi Master if you want to use Saga rules. Grab the popcorn.

[Cicciograna]

I'd like to remark what I said in the first post: this comparison is based merely on the fluff we have on both the Jedi and the Ninjas. So, imagine the most powerful Jedi you can conceive, taking inspiration from all the sources you please, be these the Original Star Wars movies, the following three Episodes, KOTOR, Star Wars Saga, whatever you like, but without calling into play actual game mechanics (character level, hit point damage and the like).
Then do the same thing with the Ninja, quoting Naruto, action movies, Anime Ninjas and whatever you prefer.

It's obvious that what constitutes the most powerful Jedi (or Ninja) for me could be way different from your ideas of perfect Jedi/Ninja, but that's okay, since when one compares fluff there isn't hard data to speculate on. However, whatever the best contestant you can conceive, imagine a situation in which, in a deciduous forest in summer, at dawn, these two fighters clash to death. Who would win?

[LordShotGun]

Jedi can slow poisons in thier blood (or at the least, slow toxins that they breath so the ability could be expanded) rendering any kind of poison useless.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Breath_Control

Also, we are talking about the GREATEST jedi versus the GREATEST ninja. Thus the jedi would have precognition and if they are even half as powerful as Force Unleashed's Starkiller character, then the jedi could just DESINTIGRATE the ninja with his MIND.

See this video of Starkiller incinerating masses of stormtroopers (and yes they are stormtroopers but my point still stands)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94-4c0eJikk

Besides, even if george lucus wanted to base the jedi on the samurai they ended up being more like ninja. There for the points in moot, because while all jedi are ninjas not all ninjas are jedi.

[DragonOfUndeath]

since the fantasy ninja is designed as an assassin, if they existed in a world with Jedi they would adapt to using Force-Nulling poison or fields, especially if Magic is also in the world. we should set up 3 stereotype Jedi and Ninjas and do a tournament thing if we want conclusive evidence

[Aotrs Commander]

I'd like to remark what I said in the first post: this comparison is based merely on the fluff we have on both the Jedi and the Ninjas. So, imagine the most powerful Jedi you can conceive, taking inspiration from all the sources you please, be these the Original Star Wars movies, the following three Episodes, KOTOR, Star Wars Saga, whatever you like, but without calling into play actual game mechanics (character level, hit point damage and the like).
Then do the same thing with the Ninja, quoting Naruto, action movies, Anime Ninjas and whatever you prefer.

That scenario is meaningless. It is based on personal opinions, as we're going right outside established characters. You're asking us who would win in a battle between two non-existant characters, which is so nebulous as to be pointless.

As well as an potentially unfair comparison, because the scale between Star Wars and pretty much anything with ninja in it is massively different. At the top level, the Force is capably of destroying planets, because Star Wars spans a galactic stage. Ninja, even those of a Naruto scale (unless you want to start considering DBZ characters ninja, which is a huge stretch), generally do not act in a reality where much more than one world is the theatre, so at the top level they do not need such wide-spanning power in the narrative they are written for. (Not to mention that you are would be then falling WELL outside what constitutes "jedi" as opposed to "force-user".)

And if there are ninja with that level of power, well, you end up comparing infinite verses infinite, which is an utterly pointless exercise.

So, that scenatio is basically either an utterly subjective "how long is a piece of string" or, "could Gil Grissom win in a fight against Sauron?" (I mean, the man's a damn good scientist - with a gun, when push comes to shove - but it's freakin' Sauron¹.)

If you want a reasonable debate (or at least as reasonable as these things get), you need to pick two known, internally consistent characters (the better well-documented their abilities the better) of approximately the same level.

Now, if you want to debate a battle between Asoka Tano and say, 12-year old Sasuke Uchiha (or Neij or Shikamaru) or Clone Wars Obiwan and Kakashi (or Psylocke, or I dunno, SubZero or something), then there are grounds for a reasonable comparison, and it would come down to the skill, personality and ability of the characters in question. (Noting that I personally think those would be reasonably even matches.)



(Also, if this is not to be statted out, this really should have been in the Media boards and not the roleplaying section.)



¹Horatio Caine, on the other hand...

[The_Admiral]

Somebody grab a ninja class i have a jedi in my sig

[Tiki Snakes]

I think it's quite clear that, going from the precedents we have available, the most powerful ninja had better not give the most powerful jedi a reason to want him dead.

Some of the Eu stuff in particular is just lulzy in it's level of power-creep.

I don't think the lazer-swords even come into it really.

[MightyTim]

I think we can approximate a Jedi's precognition abilities by taking a look at the Order 66 scene from Episode 3. A great number of very powerful Jedi were caught off guard (including members of the Jedi Council), and subsequently died because of it, so I wouldn't completely wipe a ninja off just yet.

The problem occurs if the Ninja doesn't win right off the bat. In Episode 5, Vader can stop shots from a blaster with his hand, so it would be fair to say that once the Ninja has lost the element of surprise, any ranged attack he's got isn't going to do squat. Couple this with the fact that up close, lightsaber >>> Katana.

The Ninja needs to make sure his first sneak attack counts, because it's likely he's not going to get another chance.

I'd say you'd have to run the scenario "Deadliest Warrior" style to know for sure, but I'd give about 2-1 odds to the Jedi.

[Esser-Z]

Given as ninjas are assassins, skilled with poisons and the like, I'll give it to the ninja--because those are exactly the techniques Atton Rand talks about for killing Jedi.

In a straight up fight, of course, the Jedi will win. But a ninja's job is to avoid the straight up fight.

[candycorn]

It should be assumed that masters of stealth would, at a bare minimum, have the ability to figure out how to hide from force users. It stands to reason that the greatest ninja would know that.

Wasn't there some sort of cat or rodent that was basically Jedi kryptonite?

EDIT: Also, even for Star Destroyer throwing Jedi, wouldn't that just be measured against Bleach or Death Note?

[Crasical]

[Personal Opinion]

Ninja are fantastic and great, and at a low power level comparable to Jedi.

However, 'The most Powerful Jedi Ever' is going to have serious one-ups on the most powerful Ninja, because at the upper levels Jedi are going to have enough Force-fu to have a whole suite of powerful psychic abilities, starting at precognition and ending with powerful telekinesis.

[Deadliest Warrior] EDGE, JEDI [/Deadliest Warrior]

[FelixG]

It should be assumed that masters of stealth would, at a bare minimum, have the ability to figure out how to hide from force users. It stands to reason that the greatest ninja would know that.

Wasn't there some sort of cat or rodent that was basically Jedi kryptonite?

EDIT: Also, even for Star Destroyer throwing Jedi, wouldn't that just be measured against Bleach or Death Note?

There is a lemur like critter that creates a force nullification bubble, but it cant be removed from its tree without dieing.

On ninjas learning to avoid the force: are they alive?
Yes= they cant avoid the force
No = they are still made up of force

The only things "not" linked to the force are the 'Vong so a Vong ninja might be a good match...

But anything else. Jedi wins. Why? Because the jedi can use mind tricks throw starships at them or just know exactly where they are at all times.

Oh and look into the future to find them specifically or dodge their attacks.

[Morph Bark]

If we'd talk Saga Edition Star Wars d20 versus the 3.5 CAd Ninja... I presume it would end up even depending on the situation. The Ninja is bad in a game where growth is expected to be exponential, so perhaps it'd fare better against lineairly-growing characters.

If it is about the strongest Jedi conceiveable versus the strongest Ninja conceivable... well then aren't we talking Starkiller versus one of the Mangekyou-awakened Uchiha straight out of Naruto? Man, scary thought...

[Esser-Z]

There is a lemur like critter that creates a force nullification bubble, but it cant be removed from its tree without dieing.

Well, it CAN be. It can, through a difficult process, be transplanted onto mobile frames. Thrawn used this!

[FelixG]

Well, it CAN be. It can, through a difficult process, be transplanted onto mobile frames. Thrawn used this!

Ah so he did!

But arguably this would make the ninja even more apparent because there would be a huge hole in the uber jedis perception of the force (force just stops at it making a bubble around the ninja)

[Esser-Z]

While it would indeed make the ninja's square (in D&D terms) detecable... it would also make him completely immune to the Jedi's abilities. It's a common theme in SW material that a Jedi without the Force is often close to helpless--excluding those who joined the order after having previous training, of course. Like Kyle Katarn!