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    Default Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    If a Wizard with the Collegiate Wizard feat takes a level in a full casting PrC, how many new spells does he get? My answer is 4. If this is indeed a house rule as Curmudgeon maintains, could someone please point out the error in my logic? The discussion from the RAW Q&A thread is quoted in the spoiler at the bottom.

    Assume for this discussion that "spells known" when talking about a Wizard means the spells in the Wizard's spellbook. I realize some people may disagree with this, but that's a separate argument that's beside the point here.

    Magic McCaster is a level 7 Wizard with the Collegiate Wizard feat. He takes a level in Loremaster. How many new spells does he get in his spellbook? Well, let's take a look at Loremaster's text:
    the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class
    Substituting things in and limiting it to what's in debate, this becomes "Magic McCaster gains new spells known as if he had also gained a level in Wizard."

    Ok, it says "as if." Thus, I need to construct a hypothetical and whatever the hypothetical comes up with is what I get.

    Hypothetical McCaster is a level 7 Wizard with the Collegiate Wizard feat, identical to Magic McCaster, but he's taking an 8th level of Wizard instead. He gets 4 new spells thanks to Collegiate Wizard.

    Ok, we've got what would happen with Wizard. If Magic McCaster took a level in Wizard, he'd get 4 new spells known. Loremaster grants Magic McCaster spells known as if he did gain a level in Wizard, so he gets 4 new spells known.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianuagonde View Post
    Q 336

    Does the Collegiate Wizard feat (Complete Arcane 181) grant additional spells to your spellbook when taking a level in a prestige class that adds +1 level of existing spellcasting class?
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    A 336 No.

    The benefits of Collegiate Wizard occur only "each time you gain a Wizard level". A prestige class that grants "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" does so only for "Spells per Day/Spells Known". Advancing arcane spellcasting alone does not constitute gaining all parts of a Wizard level, so you don't satisfy the conditions of the feat.
    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    A336 dispute

    This hinges on the definition of "spells known" for a wizard. If a wizard's "spells known" is considered to be the spells in his spellbook, then the PrC advances it exactly as a wizard level would, which therefore includes the feat's benefit. I can't think of any other reasonable interpretation of the term "spells known" for a wizard, so if that meaning of the term is not used then it seems that casting PrCs don't get any free spells for the wizard's spellbook at all. The latter interpretation a) seems blatantly ridiculous to me, and b) is not consistent with the wording of the Master Specialist's Expanded Spellbook feature (just to go with one I know offhand), which strongly implies that "+1 level of existing class" PrCs do normally advance a wizard's free spellbook spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Re: A 336 dispute

    The issue has nothing to do with whether the character can make use of the benefit in the same manner as a Wizard, but whether they qualify. As this benefit is strictly granted "Each time you gain a wizard level", gaining an <any other class> level is irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Assume for the purpose of discussion that "spells known" = "spells in spellbook" for a wizard.

    Let's use a core (except for the feat in question, of course) example: a wizard with Collegiate Wizard who takes a level in Loremaster. Loremaster says


    So, this character gains spells known as if she had gained a level in wizard. How many spells known would this character gain for a wizard level? 4. That is, therefore, the number of spells known that the Loremaster level grants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    I'm not sure why you keep going on about this. The benefits of Collegiate Wizard are only granted "each time you gain a Wizard level", so Loremaster levels just do not qualify. That's the RAW answer. If you want to discuss a house rule I suggest you start a new thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    ...

    And Loremaster works by emulating Wizard. This is not a house rule. Any and all Wizard-related benefits that involve either spells per day or spells known are granted by Loremaster, and if "spells known" is taken to mean "spells in spellbook" then that includes Collegiate Wizard.

    1) Loremaster used to advance Wizard casting grants spells known "as if you had also gained a level in Wizard".
    2) If you had gained a level in Wizard and had Collegiate Wizard, you would gain 4 spells known.
    3) Therefore Loremaster gives 4 spells known.

    Where is the flaw in this logic?

    Any Caster X/Full casting PrC Y character is exactly equivalent in every way to a Caster X+Y character for the purpose of spells per day and spells known. Whether a benefit to one of those things is tied specifically to the base class is irrelevant because the PrC's advancement is done by emulating the base class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sliver View Post
    You seem to not read the feat. Is Loremaster equal to Wizard in all things? No. Is taking a level of Loremaster equals to taking a level of Wizard? No.

    The feat doesn't say anything about advancing your wizard spellcasting. The requirement is very specific.



    Not every time you advance your wizard casting.

    The flaw in your logic is that you claim "advance casting as if taking a level in wizard" is equal to "gaining a wizard level."

    Note, I do not disagree with your way of ruling, but it is a houserule, since it's not what the feat actually says.
    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Yes, I did read the feat, and I'm saying it makes no difference.

    "Advance spells known as if taking a level in Wizard" is, by the words themselves, explicitly the same for the purpose of spells known as taking a level in Wizard. The equality is right there in black and white in the PrC advancement text. It applies only to spells per day and spells known, but spells known is exactly what we are discussing and exactly what Collegiate Wizard affects.

    The wording of PrC advancement text, specifically the "as if" part, means that determining advancement of spells per day and spells known works through a hypothetical. I take a level of Loremaster and use it to advance Wizard. In order to figure out what this does, I go through a hypothetical Wizard levelup and then copy spells per day and spells known from that. The hypothetical Wizard levelup gets 4 new spells due to Collegiate Wizard, so that's what Loremaster copies. If Collegiate Wizard gave some other benefit tied to Wizard class level, such as a bonus on Spellcraft equal to your Wizard level, that would indeed not include Loremaster levels because Loremaster doesn't copy that part of Wizard. Loremaster does copy spells known from the base class, however, so anything and everything that affects the base class's spells known also gets copied.
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Again, what it affects doesn't matter; it's simply a matter of following the specific RAW to determine if the feat applies. It wouldn't matter if the Loremaster class were 100% identical to Wizard except for the name, because Collegiate Wizard only provides a benefit when you gain a level in the class named Wizard.
    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    If Loremaster were completely 100% identical to Wizard except for the name, you would be correct. It would have its own casting progression separate from Wizard, and the feat would not apply because it's not the right class. That is quite different from the actual situation, however, which is that Loremaster gets its casting benefits by proxy through advancing another class. By Loremaster's own explicit wording, spells known advancement for Loremaster is identical to what the base class gets, no matter how the base class's allotment is determined.
    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    This is both tedious, and beyond the scope of this thread. I gave the RAW answer, and douglas is still attempting to foster a house rule as RAW. But I'm done with # 336. Let's move along, please.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Your interpretation is correct, barring PrCs that fail to advance spells known.

    If it advances it as if you were a wizard, you get the exact same number as if you had taken a level of wizard. Simple enough.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Your interpretation is incorrect. Wizards do not have a "Spells Known" table, and do not benefit from PrCs that advance Spells Known. Rather, their spell learning is tied directly into the Spellbook itself, which no Core PrC explicitly advances.

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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Curmudgeon is correct. RAW specifically states that the benefit of the feat applies to Wizard levels, not Loremaster or any other PrC.

    It is a reasonable house-rule, and from what I've seen, a standard interpretation, to apply such things as you suggest, but when discussing RAW, the letter of the rule text is the only thing that matters.

    There is nothing wrong with your logic at all, except that it does not apply to RAW.


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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    It's really quite simple. Does Collegiate Wizard say ""each time you gain a level of Wizard spellcasting"? No. It says "each time you gain a Wizard level". Any other class that advances Wizard spellcasting provides a spellcasting benefit, but it doesn't meet the specific stipulation of Collegiate Wizard and thus you get no benefit from the feat. There's no "interpretation" required, because it's very either-or. Wizard level = yes; anything else = no.

    While adding such a benefit is an interesting house rule, it has no foundation in RAW.

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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    Your interpretation is incorrect. Wizards do not have a "Spells Known" table, and do not benefit from PrCs that advance Spells Known. Rather, their spell learning is tied directly into the Spellbook itself, which no Core PrC explicitly advances.
    As I said in the original post, that's a separate argument from the dispute here. Please assume for this discussion that "spells known" and "spells in a Wizard's personal spellbook" are synonymous, whether or not you think that is actually the case.

    Also, the wording of Master Specialist's Expanded Spellbook class feature rather strongly implies that advancing spells known does normally advance a Wizard's spellbook.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of URL View Post
    There is nothing wrong with your logic at all, except that it does not apply to RAW.
    Please point out the exact line or phrase that is not RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    It's really quite simple. Does Collegiate Wizard say ""each time you gain a level of Wizard spellcasting"? No. It says "each time you gain a Wizard level". Any other class that advances Wizard spellcasting provides a spellcasting benefit, but it doesn't meet the specific stipulation of Collegiate Wizard and thus you get no benefit from the feat. There's no "interpretation" required, because it's very either-or. Wizard level = yes; anything else = no.

    While adding such a benefit is an interesting house rule, it has no foundation in RAW.
    Loremaster advances spells known "as if you had gained a level of Wizard". How does that not include Collegiate Wizard's benefit?
    Last edited by Douglas; 2010-09-07 at 08:34 AM.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Please point out the exact line or phrase that is not RAW.
    You are making the assumption that advancing spellcasting is the same as advancing a class level. It is not. As to a point contained within your discussion, the RAW is actually that a PrC that advances spellcasting does not grant the two free spells per level that taking a Wizard level would, although it is generally accepted as RAI that this applies to "spells known", and I've never seen anyone actually rule according to RAW on this point.

    Loremaster advances spells known "as if you had gained a level of Wizard". How does that not include Collegiate Wizard's benefit?
    Because advancing spells "as if you gained a level of Wizard" still doesn't mean you've gained a level of Wizard. Additionally, that quoted phrase is also followed by "She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained." Advancing spellcasting is NOT the same as gaining a level. The Collegiate Wizard feat specifically refers to Wizard class levels. RAW is clear on this point -- it only applies to Wizard class levels.

    RAI might be different, and there is nothing at all wrong with your interpretation of the rule -- which is likely the most common view, and, frankly, makes for more sense than RAW. But it's still not RAW. RAW can often not make sense because it doesn't always address how rules interact with each other.


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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of URL View Post
    You are making the assumption that advancing spellcasting is the same as advancing a class level. It is not.
    Loremaster does not say "advance spellcasting by 1 level", it says "advance spells per day and spells known as if you had gained a Wizard level". That seems quite thoroughly explicit to me that, for the purpose of spells per day and spells known, Loremaster's advancement is indeed exactly the same as a Wizard level in every way. If that is true, and I see no other way to interpret the Loremaster advancement text, then it would necessarily include the modifier from Collegiate Wizard for spells known.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2010-09-07 at 09:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Maybe you don't understand what you said in the bolded part.

    Is Collegiate Wizard a spell? No. As Loremaster counts as a wizard for the purpose of spells per day and spells known (and caster level), he doesn't count as a wizard for the purpose of feats. So, for the purpose of Collegiate Wizard, that tells you that when you gain a level of wizard you get to add more spells to your spellbook, is Loremaster a Wizard? No, Loremaster is not a wizard as far as the text of Collegiate Wizard is concerned.

    As Collegiate Wizard doesn't say that every time you advance your wizard spellcasting you gain the benefit of the feat, you have to actually advance as a wizard, to get what it offers.

    Your interpretation is not RAW, it's merely a very reasonable houserule.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Loremaster does not say "advance spellcasting by 1 level", it says "advance spells per day and spells known as if you had gained a Wizard level". That seems quite thoroughly explicit to me that, for the purpose of spells per day and spells known, Loremaster's advancement is indeed exactly the same as a Wizard level in every way. If that is true, and I see no other way to interpret the Loremaster advancement text, then it would necessarily include the modifier from Collegiate Wizard for spells known.
    "advance spells per day and spells known as if you had gained a Wizard level" -- "as if" still does not mean you gained the actual class level. The feat is keyed specifically to the class.

    I do not disagree at all with your interpretation making sense. But it is not RAW, and you're trying to make it RAW by reading into it what is not there and twisting the wording to match your interpretation.


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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    1) Advancing Wizard would get 4 new spells.
    2) Advancing Loremaster gets new spells as if advancing Wizard.
    3) Thus, Loremaster gets 4 new spells.

    I don't think anyone's disputing point 1. Point 2 is a restatement of Loremaster's text. Point 1 and point 2 in combination logically result in point 3. How the number in point 1 is produced is irrelevant to this logic. The fact that 2 of it comes from a feat specific to the Wizard class doesn't matter. What matters is that it's what you'd get for a level of Wizard, and Loremaster copies that for its advancement.

    Where is the break in logic that prevents points 1 and 2 from producing point 3?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of URL View Post
    "advance spells per day and spells known as if you had gained a Wizard level" -- "as if" still does not mean you gained the actual class level. The feat is keyed specifically to the class.
    You are correct that "as if" does not mean you gained the actual class level, but how does this morph into meaning that the benefits specifically called out as the ones you do get can be different?

    "As if" in this text does not mean "copy the Wizard class", it means "add a level of Wizard and copy everything in these categories that gets triggered by that".
    Last edited by Douglas; 2010-09-07 at 09:50 AM.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Where is the break in logic that prevents points 1 and 2 from producing point 3?
    At the point where you assume a Loremaster counts as a wizard for the purpose of feats that require taking a level as a wizard.

    The feat is clear that it does not refer to advancing your wizard spellcasting, but wizard level. By RAW, the feat does not count Loremaster as a wizard because it is not a wizard. It's a different class.

    On page 58-59 you can see how you are supposed to advance levels. When you reach step 8, Spells, you see that you have a feat that lets you add new spells when you take a wizard level. You check and see that you have taken a level in a class that is not "wizard" but "loremaster" and so you do not gain the feat's benefit.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Sliver View Post
    On page 58-59 you can see how you are supposed to advance levels. When you reach step 8, Spells, you see that you have a feat that lets you add new spells when you take a wizard level. You check and see that you have taken a level in a class that is not "wizard" but "loremaster" and so you do not gain the feat's benefit.
    I reach step 8, spells. I check my class, it says "as if Wizard". I process step 8 pretending that I'm Wizard.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    You are not getting the benefit of feats as if you were taking a level of wizard.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    But I am getting spells known as if I were a Wizard. That includes all things that affect spells known - class features, skill tricks (if any somehow applied), feats, and all, but only for their effects on spells known specifically.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2010-09-07 at 10:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Sliver View Post
    You are not getting the benefit of feats as if you were taking a level of wizard.
    The feat explicitly modifies what the wizard gets. Loremaster says that you get the same spells as if you had taken wizard. Ergo, you get the modified number.

    I really don't see why this is a point of contention.

    Note that not all PrCs are as thoughtful as Loremaster in specifying this.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    But I am getting spells known as if I were a Wizard. That includes all things that affect spells known - class features, skill tricks (if any somehow applied), feats, and all, but only for their effects on spells known specifically.
    No, I don't think so. There aren't any rules that reduce the requirements of other parts of the game (in this case feats) just because some class feature says it works as if you'd gained part of another class's characteristics.

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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Er, the rule is right there in the Loremaster text and the meaning of the English words it uses. "As if" means you copy the thing referenced plus anything and everything based on it*. If a Wizard would gain 4 new spells but I only gain 2, then regardless of the reason for the difference it is most definitely true that I am not gaining new spells as if I were a Wizard. If I were gaining new spells as if I were a Wizard, I'd have the same number - 4.

    * More formally, it means you construct a hypothetical while pretending that the "as if" clause is absolutely true in every regard, then copy the relevant parts of the hypothetical. Loremaster gains new spells "as if Wizard"? Level up a copy of your character in Wizard. Note the copy's spells known. You gain the spells noted.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2010-09-07 at 10:43 AM.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    Er, the rule is right there in the Loremaster text and the meaning of the English words it uses. "As if" means you copy the thing referenced plus anything and everything based on it*. If a Wizard would gain 4 new spells but I only gain 2, then regardless of the reason for the difference it is most definitely true that I am not gaining new spells as if I were a Wizard. If I were gaining new spells as if I were a Wizard, I'd have the same number - 4.
    No, a Wizard would only gain two spells. The Collegiate Wizard feat then grants the character an additional two spells when he takes a level in Wizard. These are not the same thing, and cannot simply be treated as stacking.

    Additionally, the Loremaster does not receive even the two spells per level that a Wizard does, because it is not technically a "spells known", but instead part of a class feature that is not addressed by Loremaster, and therefore is not advance.

    By RAW, that is. As noted several times, the non-RAW interpretation to allow the PrC to grant the spells in the first place, and to additionally allow the spells from Collegiate Wizard makes a great deal of sense, and I would certainly want to play it that way myself.


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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of URL View Post
    No, a Wizard would only gain two spells. The Collegiate Wizard feat then grants the character an additional two spells when he takes a level in Wizard. These are not the same thing, and cannot simply be treated as stacking.

    Additionally, the Loremaster does not receive even the two spells per level that a Wizard does, because it is not technically a "spells known", but instead part of a class feature that is not addressed by Loremaster, and therefore is not advance.

    By RAW, that is. As noted several times, the non-RAW interpretation to allow the PrC to grant the spells in the first place, and to additionally allow the spells from Collegiate Wizard makes a great deal of sense, and I would certainly want to play it that way myself.
    I can totally see where you got this logic from, it is quite sound. Technically, though, a wizard "knows" all the spells in their spellbook, by RAW.

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB p. 57
    Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, page 179).
    Since the loremaster gains:

    Quote Originally Posted by DMG p. 191
    the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class.
    she thus gains learned spells per level as if taking a level in Wizard (in this case, anyway).

    The logic then follows that:
    Collegiate Wizard grants new spells known when taking a level in Wizard.
    Loremaster gains new spells known as if taking a level in Wizard.

    Therefore, whenever you level in Loremaster and gain new spells, Loremaster = Wizard for purposes of learning new spells. Thus, collegiate wizard applies to the spells learned for Loremasters.

    To break it down in the simplest terms:
    Collegiate Wizard + Wizard = 4 new spells known
    Loremaster + spells known = Wizard
    Therefore, Collegiate Wizard + Loremaster = 4 new spells known

    The text in Loremaster allows for the class to be interchangeable with Wizard in the cases noted (spells/day, spells known, etc.).
    Last edited by BeholderSlayer; 2010-09-07 at 11:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by BeholderSlayer View Post
    I can totally see where you got this logic from, it is quite sound. Technically, though, a wizard "knows" all the spells in their spellbook, by RAW.
    True but they lack a Spells Known table, and the spells per level are instead granted by the Spellbook feature rather than their spellcasting itself (like most of the other classes). So a PrC advancing spells known without making a specific reference to the feature (like the Master Specialist apparently does) doesn't apply to the wizard.

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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of URL View Post
    No, a Wizard would only gain two spells. The Collegiate Wizard feat then grants the character an additional two spells when he takes a level in Wizard. These are not the same thing, and cannot simply be treated as stacking.

    Additionally, the Loremaster does not receive even the two spells per level that a Wizard does, because it is not technically a "spells known", but instead part of a class feature that is not addressed by Loremaster, and therefore is not advance.

    By RAW, that is. As noted several times, the non-RAW interpretation to allow the PrC to grant the spells in the first place, and to additionally allow the spells from Collegiate Wizard makes a great deal of sense, and I would certainly want to play it that way myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    True but they lack a Spells Known table, and the spells per level are instead granted by the Spellbook feature rather than their spellcasting itself (like most of the other classes). So a PrC advancing spells known without making a specific reference to the feature (like the Master Specialist apparently does) doesn't apply to the wizard.
    I don't follow why this is categorically true. The Master Specialist entry states:
    Quote Originally Posted by Complete Mage p. 70
    Spellcasting: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in the wizard class. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.
    It makes no reference to your spellbook except for in the Expanded Spellbook class feature. Does this mean that you do not gain any new spells for your spellbook? Does this also mean that, since most PrC's don't state you gain caster level in their text, that you do not gain caster levels for full casting PrC's?

    As a side example, the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil gains:
    Quote Originally Posted by Complete Arcane, p. 44
    Spells per Day/Spells Known: At each level, an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class level. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (such as the bonus feat sometimes gained by a wizard). If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, she must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.
    Does this mean that you not only do not learn more spells for your book, but you also do not gain any caster levels?

    You can't have it the way the dissenters describe without this being the case.

    The Master Specialist entry specifically states the wizard class because it is a "wizard only" PrC, as non-wizards cannot use the wizard's specialist class feature.

    Edit: sorry, confused the OP and the dissenters
    Last edited by BeholderSlayer; 2010-09-07 at 11:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    So a PrC advancing spells known without making a specific reference to the feature (like the Master Specialist apparently does) doesn't apply to the wizard.
    The important thing about Master Specialist in that particular argument is that the way it's worded clearly implies that gaining the free 2/level is normal for advancement by PrC.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of URL View Post
    Additionally, the Loremaster does not receive even the two spells per level that a Wizard does, because it is not technically a "spells known", but instead part of a class feature that is not addressed by Loremaster, and therefore is not advance.
    This interpretation is nonsensical, as this ability would then do nothing at all.

    Is it not more logical to assume that spells in a spellbook are considered as spells known?

    And as for the table argument, that's silly. Text trumps table. Plus, there's the obvious lack of a need for a table when it will always say "any number of spells".
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2010-09-07 at 11:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Is it not more logical to assume that spells in a spellbook are considered as spells known?
    Interestingly enough, they are considered spells known, as shown by one of my quotes in post #20.

    Also, following the same logic you would not gain Caster Levels or Spells known from something like 98% of casting PrC's (as I said in post #22) due to the lack of referencing Caster Levels or spellbooks in the spellcasting entry of nearly every PrC published except Master Specialist.
    Last edited by BeholderSlayer; 2010-09-07 at 11:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by BeholderSlayer View Post
    Interestingly enough, they are considered spells known, as shown by one of my quotes in post #20.
    This is what I've always considered them as, and what it appears the designers referenced them as, judging by common usage throughout the rulebooks, yeah.

    And if that doesn't count, I dunno what does.
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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Is it not more logical to assume that spells in a spellbook are considered as spells known?
    You can assume anything you want, but once you leave the actual letter of the rule, you are no longer discussing RAW. Pointing out that the written rule does not make sense unless you make certain assumptions still doesn't make the answer you arrive at a RAW answer.

    I repeat again that I have no problem with douglas' interpretation -- in fact I agree with it and would use the same interpretation in any game I was DM for -- but it simply isn't RAW. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, as RAW contains some real doozies and the generally-accepted RAI tends to work much better.

    When you consider the mounds of text that encompass all of 3.5, it's not surprising it isn't cross-checked thoroughly for consistency and correctness. It takes the wide review base of the internet to ask all of the right questions to point out the flaws. But the printed rule is still the printed rule, unless it is superseded by some other rule or errata.

    Because of this, we have nonsensical rules (most of which are simple oversights or typos) such as:

    • You can drown a dying character to bring him/her back to 0 hp.
    • Making a single ranged attack provokes an AoO, but making a full ranged attack doesn't
    • Swordsages get x6 skill points at 1st level
    • And so on.


    So to answer a question further upthread, if the Loremaster doesn't say it increases caster level, then by RAW, it doesn't. But that's silly, so no one plays that way. Still doesn't change what RAW is, however.

    Now, if you'll excuse me, I have several documents to review and likely update based on this discussion.


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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    OK, the way I see it, RAW is ambiguous on whether or not Wizards gain their 2 free spells added to their spellbook when taking a PrC level. On the one hand, it's a part of spellcasting and indicates how many spells they know, and therefore could be covered by the "spells known" clause of the spellcasting sections of PrCs.

    On the other hand, Wizards do not have a "Spells Known" table, and from that perspective, the PrC does not give those two spells.

    If the two spells the Wizard gains for free are included in PrC spellcasting, then the extra two from Collegiate Wizard are also included. PrCs are "as if you gained a level of Wizard" for "spells known", and with Collegiate Wizard your spells known/level is 4 instead of 2.

    If PrCs don't give the 2, then obviously they don't give the 4.

    But I don't think it's even remotely justifiable, by RAW, for PrCs to give only 2 if you have Collegiate Wizard.

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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    On the other hand, Wizards do not have a "Spells Known" table, and from that perspective, the PrC does not give those two spells.
    The reason they don't have a "Spells Known" table is because the number of spells they know is arbitrary, not defined. By RAW, a wizard knows all the spells in her spellbook. When you add to spells known, you add them to your spellbook since that constitutes your pool of spells known.

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    Default Re: Collegiate Wizard and full casting PrCs

    I agree with that reading, yes. But others don't.

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