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2010-09-08, 06:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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[3.5] Skill checks to Sneak attack the unsneakable
One of the major hassles for Rogues is that there are certain creatures - undead, constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures - that are immune to sneak attack, since, according to SRD, they "lack vital areas to attack". This sucks.
While obviously such creatures lack vital areas, I fail to see why they couldn't have weak spots, places that, if hit, would really hurt. The charm is to know where these spots are; so I propose this House rule: prior to making a SA, by making an appropriate Skill check as a swift action to determine the weak spot of one of these creatures, the Rogue is able to SA them.
The DC for every check would be HD of the target creature.
Undead: Heal or Knowledge (Religion);
Constructs: Disable Device or Knowledge (Arcana);
Oozes: Knowledge (Dungeoneering);
Plants: Survival or Knowledge (Nature);
Incorporeal creatures: Spot or Knowledge (Arcana);
Elementals: Knowledge (the Planes).
PEACH.Last edited by Cicciograna; 2010-09-08 at 08:19 AM.
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2010-09-08, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
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- Sunnydale
Re: [3.5] Sill checks to Sneak attack the unsneakable
While this is an admirable idea, I think you've over-reached. Instead of making the skill check a swift action, I suggest it should require a move action instead. This is consistent with the way Spot and Listen checks, to try to perceive things that aren't apparent initially, work.
Originally Posted by ListenOriginally Posted by Spot
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2010-09-08, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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- R'lyeh
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Re: [3.5] Sill checks to Sneak attack the unsneakable
Change the reference, and you'll have to adjust it the other way around. Knowledge Devotion doesn't take actions and a single check lasts the entire combat.
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2010-09-08, 07:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2005
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- Tacoma, WA
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2010-09-08, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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- Italy (I'd rather flee)
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2010-09-08, 07:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: [3.5] Skill checks to Sneak attack the unsneakable
Not a bad idea, inherently, but that's a rather low DC. Standard DC's for recognizing a critter are 10+HD.
Of course, if your primary intent is to simply enable the rogue, that aspect works, but might as well say it straight-out.
Normally?
Undead are Knowledge(Religion), not Arcana, even though they're produced by spells.
What do you do when you get critters that fit more than one category (e.g., Incorporeal Undead)?
Your forgot Elementals (Knowledge(The Planes)), obviously.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2010-09-08, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
Re: [3.5] Skill checks to Sneak attack the unsneakable
In Boundless Horizons, we made an option of the "sneak attack" (renamed precise strike, with sneak attack as an option) ability called exploit weakness, which is a full-round action that combines a Spot check (DC 10 + creature's HD) with an attack roll -- if both are successful, you can apply precise strike damage to anyone normally immune to precision damage (undead, constructs, fortification, etc.), plus you gain stacking insight bonuses to subsequent Spot checks for future exploit weakness attempts against the same creature.
No feat required, it's part of the standard level 1 rogue ability.
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2010-09-08, 08:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: [3.5] Skill checks to Sneak attack the unsneakable
While a move action would be more interesting in terms of tactial costs for the Rogue, given that this class is heavily based on movement and position maybe it would be too disadvantageous for them. That's a good suggestion, however.
Consider that not all the skills involved are class skills for the Rogue. 10+HD could be too much: I like 10+(HD/2), what would you think of 5+HD?
Completely missed both. Thank you.
In that case, use any of the skills viable for both the types (in your case Heal, Spot, Knowledge [Arcana or Religion]).
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2010-09-08, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- Washington, DC
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Re: [3.5] Skill checks to Sneak attack the unsneakable
The problem with your house rule is that it requires a Skill investment in a bunch of otherwise useless Skills.
I have a standard house rule which any class with Sneak Attack can take. You can trade Sneak Attack for Back Stab. Back Stab functions exactly like Sneak Attack, except that nothing is immune to it, and it only functions when you Flank an enemy. Similarly, nothing is immune to Skirmish, but it only functions for ranged and thrown attacks. Or you can keep the RAW if you prefer, but then you have to deal with immunities.
Honestly, in a world of Leap Attack, there's no reason to nerf Precision Damage. It's just a massive bookkeeping hassle.
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2010-09-08, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Northern Ireland
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Re: [3.5] Skill checks to Sneak attack the unsneakable
I think houseruling this would work very well with Knowledge Devotion.
"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
- The Flying Kipper
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2010-09-08, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
Re: [3.5] Skill checks to Sneak attack the unsneakable
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*As a DM I run sand-box games.
Challenge me.
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2010-09-08, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: [3.5] Skill checks to Sneak attack the unsneakable
Knowledge checks are typically free actions. Retrying a spot or listen is a move action, but otherwise those are free actions too. 10 + HD is the typical DC. But ya, it does scale faster than rogue levels if you stick with this. The other issue is that many of these skills are cross class for rogues. None of the skills themselves are useless, because they also tell you other weaknesses of the related monsters. But ya it is a lot more skills for the rogue to spend points on.
I'd maybe add craft(alchemy) to oozes. Heal and spot are a bit of a stretch IMO. Incorporeal are usually undead which fall under religion. Those magically incorporeal would fall under spellcraft.So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)