Help with a supermount-esque build (3.5)

[gallagher]

so i have been thinking of toying with a paladin of freedom/beastmaster/halfling plains outrider build, with a few adjustments that i would like to just throw out there

first, is there something other than the 3-level wild plains outrider that i can use? losing a bit of mount/animal companion is ok in this point, because he is already going to be a beast. i want to possibly build this class as a charismatic class, if that helps

second, is there any way that using my paladin levels have a little more? are there any useful ACFs that give him a bit more flavor? anything useful, as long as i dont have to lose my CHA to saves or special mount abilities.

third, what is the most efficient way to get a dragon as my animal companion/mount? i know there are feats for both, but is there one that is strategically the best? and i have already had a dragonnel, i want something a bit stronger

fourth, is there a way for my character to gain a domain without dipping in cleric? being able to get domains means i can get devotion powers, which makes knowledge and travel devotion available.

fifth, what is the gear that i absolutely must have outside of a good lance, good armor, and a wand chamber in my lance for rhinos rush or some other awesome spell? what should i buy for my dragon?

sixth, what is the best kind of halfling to be

so i guess the build so far is, what, PoF5/Beastmaster2/Halfling Plains Outrider 10/X3? any help is greatly appreciated

tl;dr please help my build!

[gallagher]

also, i know of the warbeast template, which i will be adding on. and i forgot to mention the obvious of taking devoted tracker. are there any other ways to improve a mount/animal companion dragon?

[heymejack]

strongheart *edit* halfling *edit* gets a feat, and you're gonna need them. in the forgotten realms book.

[Ruinix]

if Dragon magazine is allowed, then we can push your mount to 19/19/7 boosts from special mount/ familiar / animal companion at lev 20 of your char. ^^

if not.

5 paladin. / 1 best master / 3 halfling outrider / what ever u want.

take the feats.

Dragon steed. Draconomicon.
Devoted tracker. C.Adv.
Natural Bond. C.Adv.


u get a dragonel with dragon steed as special mount.
devoted tracker let u designate ur special mount as animal companion, wich allow u advance your mount in HD and "level" of beast like an AC.
beast master give u a boost of druid +3, wich is a +4 AC.
h. outrider let you stack the AC and SM levels and bonus like HDs and a like.
finally Natural Bond push a bit further +3 HDs to your AC.

so for lev 9 u have a:

SM = 8 efective lev.
AC = 10 efective lev.

as a CG paladin of freedom u get a nice young Bronze dragon ^^ take a peek on draconomicon table 3.14

[truekender]

You actually don't need a domain to have a devotion feat, you simply need to worship a god that grants that domain (clerics with domains can simply have more than one devotion feat).

[Akal Saris]

so i have been thinking of toying with a paladin of freedom/beastmaster/halfling plains outrider build, with a few adjustments that i would like to just throw out there

first, is there something other than the 3-level wild plains outrider that i can use? losing a bit of mount/animal companion is ok in this point, because he is already going to be a beast. i want to possibly build this class as a charismatic class, if that helps

second, is there any way that using my paladin levels have a little more? are there any useful ACFs that give him a bit more flavor? anything useful, as long as i dont have to lose my CHA to saves or special mount abilities.

third, what is the most efficient way to get a dragon as my animal companion/mount? i know there are feats for both, but is there one that is strategically the best? and i have already had a dragonnel, i want something a bit stronger

fourth, is there a way for my character to gain a domain without dipping in cleric? being able to get domains means i can get devotion powers, which makes knowledge and travel devotion available.

fifth, what is the gear that i absolutely must have outside of a good lance, good armor, and a wand chamber in my lance for rhinos rush or some other awesome spell? what should i buy for my dragon?

sixth, what is the best kind of halfling to be

so i guess the build so far is, what, PoF5/Beastmaster2/Halfling Plains Outrider 10/X3? any help is greatly appreciated

tl;dr please help my build!

Holy cow, that's a lot of questions!

First, there are lots of choices besides the wild plains outrider to finish the build. You could take more beastmaster, or levels in cavalier, or any other PrC that advances your mount/AC a little bit. I'm a big fan of Vadalis Beastmaster from the admittedly obscure Dragonmarked sourcebook for Eberron.

Second, there are a ton of great paladin ACFs. I love Paladin 6 for this type of build, since there's an ACF in the book of exalted deeds that trades remove disease to apply the celestial template to your mount for free. Another good one is the ACF in Champions of Valor that trades fear immunity or something for the track feat for free - which helps to get the devoted tracker feat.

Best ways to get a dragon mount: the dragon mount feat (necessary for supermount), leadership, dragon cohort feat, or levels in Dragonrider from the Dragonlance CS sourcebook.

Fourth, you can just take the feats normally. Check Complete Divine for several PrCs that grant domains, however. Complete Champion also has the Ordained Champion PrC which a paladin can enter and gives the War domain if I recall.

Fifth, I highly recommend horseshoes (dragonshoes?) of speed, or of mobility, both from the DMG. Lots of good items in the MIC as well. Sudden Stunning weapon enhancement from the DMG II is absolutely killer on a paladin as well, and only 2K.

Sixth, the best kind is strongheart halfling, from the Forgotten Realms CS sourcebook. Standard halflings are fine as well, while water halflings from Unearthed Arcana gain a swim speed and an additional +2 to Constitution.

I would go: PoF6/Halfling Plains Outrider 2/Beastmaster1/Halfling Plains Outrider +8/Crusader 2/Beastmaster +1. That gives Paladin 16 (young gold dragon) and Druid 18 (maximum druid level for HD), as well as some 5th level crusader maneuvers and stances.

[gallagher]

Spoiler

Show

Holy cow, that's a lot of questions!

First, there are lots of choices besides the wild plains outrider to finish the build. You could take more beastmaster, or levels in cavalier, or any other PrC that advances your mount/AC a little bit. I'm a big fan of Vadalis Beastmaster from the admittedly obscure Dragonmarked sourcebook for Eberron.

Second, there are a ton of great paladin ACFs. I love Paladin 6 for this type of build, since there's an ACF in the book of exalted deeds that trades remove disease to apply the celestial template to your mount for free. Another good one is the ACF in Champions of Valor that trades fear immunity or something for the track feat for free - which helps to get the devoted tracker feat.

Best ways to get a dragon mount: the dragon mount feat (necessary for supermount), leadership, dragon cohort feat, or levels in Dragonrider from the Dragonlance CS sourcebook.

Fourth, you can just take the feats normally. Check Complete Divine for several PrCs that grant domains, however. Complete Champion also has the Ordained Champion PrC which a paladin can enter and gives the War domain if I recall.

Fifth, I highly recommend horseshoes (dragonshoes?) of speed, or of mobility, both from the DMG. Lots of good items in the MIC as well. Sudden Stunning weapon enhancement from the DMG II is absolutely killer on a paladin as well, and only 2K.

Sixth, the best kind is strongheart halfling, from the Forgotten Realms CS sourcebook. Standard halflings are fine as well, while water halflings from Unearthed Arcana gain a swim speed and an additional +2 to Constitution.

I would go: PoF6/Halfling Plains Outrider 2/Beastmaster1/Halfling Plains Outrider +8/Crusader 2/Beastmaster +1. That gives Paladin 16 (young gold dragon) and Druid 18 (maximum druid level for HD), as well as some 5th level crusader maneuvers and stances.

that was alot of good help! allow me to follow up with some responses

first, will levels in cavalier advance my animal companion levels as well, as per it being levels that increase my paladin levels for a mount? and i am sure i can get the lawful good requirement taken away for this one.

second, i dont have book of exalted cheese, what does the celestial template give? and fear immunity will be okay to give away, i have a feeling that i will be putting a good amount of points into intimidate. if i am a paladin of tyranny or slaughter, would it gain the infernal template or something?

third, if i recall, dragon cohort gives me a dragon at its leadership score minus 3, and that can get me a young gold dragon too, i dont know if it will allow me to get him earlier. as a strongheart halfling, i just need the dragon to be medium sized, yes?

fourth, i am away from book and at the library, what would war devotion give me? and does ordained champion give me increased mount levels?

fifth, again, afb, what do those horseshoes give? and do they work for non-horse mounts? and where do i find how much the cost is for armor and gear for my mount?

sixth, what book is strongheart halfling?


so i guess my build so far is PoF(/S/T) 6/Outrider 2/Beastmaster 1/Outrider 8/Cavalier 3 as of right now with a strongheart halfling? what are the bonuses that i accrue, because i am unsure of what stacks from the two sources (companion and mount)

[Urpriest]

that was alot of good help! allow me to follow up with some responses

first, will levels in cavalier advance my animal companion levels as well, as per it being levels that increase my paladin levels for a mount? and i am sure i can get the lawful good requirement taken away for this one.

Cavalier buffs your Paladin mount, which adds hit dice to your animal companion since they;'re the same creature, but it won't increase your effective druid level like halfling outrider will.

second, i dont have book of exalted cheese, what does the celestial template give? and fear immunity will be okay to give away, i have a feeling that i will be putting a good amount of points into intimidate. if i am a paladin of tyranny or slaughter, would it gain the infernal template or something?

Celestial is in the Monster Manual, and the Celestial Mount ACF is in Planar Handbook. Neither is in BoED, so no need for that. For tyranny or slaughter you'd have to talk to your DM, but fiendish would be a decent houserule since it's basically the same template.

third, if i recall, dragon cohort gives me a dragon at its leadership score minus 3, and that can get me a young gold dragon too, i dont know if it will allow me to get him earlier. as a strongheart halfling, i just need the dragon to be medium sized, yes?

Yeah, as a halfling all you need is medium for a mount. As for dragon cohort, making a cohort your paladin mount is...tricky. I'd just go for the feat Dragon Mount instead, as it's more clear-cut. You'd have to ask someone else what happens when it's a cohort, but I get the impression it actually won't help all that much.

fifth, again, afb, what do those horseshoes give? and do they work for non-horse mounts? and where do i find how much the cost is for armor and gear for my mount?
sixth, what book is strongheart halfling?

Don't know about your other questions, but armor for mounts is discussed in the mounts part of the equipment section of the PHB under barding, and strongheart halflings are in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.

[Akal Saris]

Sure, my pleasure to help :)

Urpriest answered most of those questions, but here are those horseshoes from the DMG:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Horseshoes_of_a_Zephyr

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Horseshoes_of_Speed

Both are designed for horses, but a variant for a dragon's claws is probably reasonable given the lack of equipment out there for mounts.

The advantage of the supermount build with the dragon mount feat is the huge pile of bonus HD from the druid's animal companion HD. If you're not really interested in that and mostly want a dragon to ride, then it's a lot simpler just to take the dragon cohort feat and go paladin 20 or whatever build interests you most.

[gallagher]

I am interested in making a mount powerful enough to be a viable ally, and be the cooles thing I can make it. My biggest question left is how to get the most out of this, especially since I don't know what stacks betwen Druid and paladin levels.

Sure, my pleasure to help :)

Urpriest answered most of those questions, but here are those horseshoes from the DMG:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Horseshoes_of_a_Zephyr

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Horseshoes_of_Speed

Both are designed for horses, but a variant for a dragon's claws is probably reasonable given the lack of equipment out there for mounts.

The advantage of the supermount build with the dragon mount feat is the huge pile of bonus HD from the druid's animal companion HD. If you're not really interested in that and mostly want a dragon to ride, then it's a lot simpler just to take the dragon cohort feat and go paladin 20 or whatever build interests you most.

[Ruinix]

the Feat Devoted Tracker is what u allow stack what ever u gain from Animal Companion (AC) and Special Mount (SM)

if u check the PH p.36 u find there is a table for advancement of the AC.

in my previus advice at character lev 8 u get druid animal companion efective level of 10, so from this table u get:

+6 HDs
+6 Nat. Armor
+3 STR/DEX
+4 tricks
feats.
multiattack
devotion
evasion
link, share spells.


on the same PH p.45 u can finde the table for the SM.

in my advice at lev 8 u reach paladin efective special mount level 8 s from this chart u get:

+4 HDs
+6 Nat. Armour
+2 STR
7 INT

feats.
Impreoved Speed
empathic link
improved evasion
share spells
share saving throw


al that applied to the mount of ur choice, if u has the feat dragon steed all this advance ur dragonel to a young bronze dragon at character lev 8, wich u have to add:

+10 HDs
+12 Nat. Ar.
+5 STR
+3 DEX
+4 tricks
7 INT
multiattack
devotion of choice of ur deity
evasion
improve evasion
link
empatic link
share spells
share saving throws


all that just a lev char lev 8.

[gallagher]

Spoiler

Show

the Feat Devoted Tracker is what u allow stack what ever u gain from Animal Companion (AC) and Special Mount (SM)

if u check the PH p.36 u find there is a table for advancement of the AC.

in my previus advice at character lev 8 u get druid animal companion efective level of 10, so from this table u get:

+6 HDs
+6 Nat. Armor
+3 STR/DEX
+4 tricks
feats.
multiattack
devotion
evasion
link, share spells.


on the same PH p.45 u can finde the table for the SM.

in my advice at lev 8 u reach paladin efective special mount level 8 s from this chart u get:

+4 HDs
+6 Nat. Armour
+2 STR
7 INT

feats.
Impreoved Speed
empathic link
improved evasion
share spells
share saving throw


al that applied to the mount of ur choice, if u has the feat dragon steed all this advance ur dragonel to a young bronze dragon at character lev 8, wich u have to add:

+10 HDs
+12 Nat. Ar.
+5 STR
+3 DEX
+4 tricks
7 INT
multiattack
devotion of choice of ur deity
evasion
improve evasion
link
empatic link
share spells
share saving throws


all that just a lev char lev 8.

so the strength and HD bonuses stack with eachother?

that means with a paladin6/beastmaster1/halfling outrider10/cavalier3 i get the following with devoted tracker and dragon cohort i get the following
a celestial young gold dragon with a bonus 20HD, +22 natural armor, +10 Str, +6 Dex, 9 int, 7 bonus tricks plus all the special features of a paladin mount and animal companion at level 20 for both?

also, with the bonus HD, does he get 7 bonus feats?

[Urpriest]

so the strength and HD bonuses stack with eachother?

that means with a paladin6/beastmaster1/halfling outrider10/cavalier3 i get the following with devoted tracker and dragon cohort i get the following
a celestial young gold dragon with a bonus 20HD, +22 natural armor, +10 Str, +6 Dex, 9 int, 7 bonus tricks plus all the special features of a paladin mount and animal companion at level 20 for both?

also, with the bonus HD, does he get 7 bonus feats?

Haven't checked your numbers, but remember that as a Dragon your companion counts as if you had a lower paladin level, with how much lower listed in a table in Draconomicon.

Yes, the additional HD give feats.

Also, remember, Dragon Mount, not Dragon Cohort, unless you want to be using the cohort as mount rules (which give the guy an additional +2 or so level adjustment, rules in the DMG). While you might get the full paladin bonuses (rather than the reduced ones for Dragon Mount) you debatably would count the bonus hit dice in with its ECL, making it ineligible to be your cohort as soon as it becomes your mount. It's a fuzzy rules area, and unless you find someone who's clearer on it to advise you I'd just go with the rules in Dragon Mount and the associated table in Draconomicon for Dragon Paladin Mounts.

[Ruinix]

so the strength and HD bonuses stack with eachother?

that means with a paladin6/beastmaster1/halfling outrider10/cavalier3 i get the following with devoted tracker and dragon cohort i get the following
a celestial young gold dragon with a bonus 20HD, +22 natural armor, +10 Str, +6 Dex, 9 int, 7 bonus tricks plus all the special features of a paladin mount and animal companion at level 20 for both?

also, with the bonus HD, does he get 7 bonus feats?

help your self men ¬¬.

read the feat.

devoted tracker also let advance ur paladin levels for SM and smite evil with ur char level making perfect for milticlass.

also get the feat battle blessing.