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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Ultimate Party Support Character

    Okay, what I'm trying to do is create the ultimate buff-bot.

    To this end, I'm trying to combine the following:

    DMM Chain to be combined with: GMW, Magic Vestments, other buffs as necessary

    Inspire Courage, and possibly DFI

    And I'm trying to figure out how to do this all with one non-gestalt character.

    Bard/Cleric seems the most obvious, but doesn't really get the IC I'm wanting. Bardblade gets the IC, but doesn't get the other buffing.

    I know Harmonious Knight ACF for Paladin replaces Detect Evil with IC, but only a flat +1, not advancing at all. That doesn't quite work for what I'm trying to do.

    Basically, I'm wanting to give everyone a +25 to attack and damage, plus another 30 or so AC from various different sources. And be able to heal/remove negative effects.

    Any ideas?
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Here is a couple suggestions I can think of. Heartfire Fanner and Ur-priest because you just need to cram fast advancement classes into such a build.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by CyMage View Post
    Here is a couple suggestions I can think of. Heartfire Fanner and Ur-priest because you just need to cram fast advancement classes into such a build.
    Also need Turn Undead, which you don't get from Ur Priest.

    Where is Heartfire Fanner from?
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Also need Turn Undead, which you don't get from Ur Priest.
    Isn't Rebuke Undead also useable for DMM?
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Bark View Post
    Isn't Rebuke Undead also useable for DMM?
    I think so, but Ur Priest doesn't give that either.
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    I think so, but Ur Priest doesn't give that either.
    Yes it does, at second level. This is why most Ur-Priest builds are Urp2, even if they don't require second level spells.

    Anyway, aside from the lack of the high level Cleric buffs, Divine Bard variant with Sacred Exorcist levels (if bards can qualify, which I think they can) will give you turning and the divine buff spells to use DMM Chain on. Sprinkle in some Warblade or Crusader for White Raven, just don't use so much that it keeps you from getting the best bard buff spells.
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Yes it does, at second level. This is why most Ur-Priest builds are Urp2, even if they don't require second level spells.

    Anyway, aside from the lack of the high level Cleric buffs, Divine Bard variant with Sacred Exorcist levels (if bards can qualify, which I think they can) will give you turning and the divine buff spells to use DMM Chain on. Sprinkle in some Warblade or Crusader for White Raven, just don't use so much that it keeps you from getting the best bard buff spells.
    Divine Bard doesn't get GMW or Magic Vestments, much less any of the other buffs I'm looking for

    The problem with UrPriest is the required Evil flavor, when I'm looking to make the ultimate Goody Two-Shoes who has eschewed combat for buffing the hell out of people. The other problem is that they cannot use Nightsticks Cracksticks to power DMM.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-09-08 at 07:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Divine Bard doesn't get GMW or Magic Vestments, much less any of the other buffs I'm looking for

    The problem with UrPriest is the required Evil flavor, when I'm looking to make the ultimate Goody Two-Shoes who has eschewed combat for buffing the hell out of people. The other problem is that they cannot use Nightsticks Cracksticks to power DMM.
    Ur-Priests can use Nightsticks just as well as anyone, they add to turning or rebuking IIRC.

    If you're really into the "Goody Two-Shoes" and "Eschewed Combat" tropes, Apostle of Peace also has rapid cleric casting, and has easier entry requirements, plus turn undead at first level rather than second. Just make sure your DM allows you to own a holy symbol.

    Edit: Apostle of Peace isn't the full Cleric list, so it lacks some of the spells you would want. Be forewarned. Still a decent list, but I'm not sure it gets GMW, which may be a dealbreaker.
    Last edited by Urpriest; 2010-09-08 at 07:21 PM.
    Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor

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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    What would your initial post be in terms that someone not too familiar with optimization (i.e. me) would use? In other words, Death by Jargon strikes again!
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Bard 1 / cleric 3 / geomancer 10 / warweaver 5 / cleric x

    versitile spellcaster, extend. persist, DMM.

    Now you can cast buffs to effect the whole party with any cleric buff spells.

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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Ur-Priests can use Nightsticks just as well as anyone, they add to turning or rebuking IIRC.

    If you're really into the "Goody Two-Shoes" and "Eschewed Combat" tropes, Apostle of Peace also has rapid cleric casting, and has easier entry requirements, plus turn undead at first level rather than second. Just make sure your DM allows you to own a holy symbol.
    No, UrPriests cannot use nightsticks. They only do Turn Undead, and require, specifically, Turn Undead to use.

    Where is Apostle of Peace found?

    What would your initial post be in terms that someone not too familiar with optimization (i.e. me) would use? In other words, Death by Jargon strikes again!
    Bluntly, I'm looking for people who are familiar with optimization. In fact, I'm looking for people who are better at optimization than I am, which isn't easy to find.

    If you do not understand what I stated in the original post, it is likely you would not be able to answer my question.
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    No, UrPriests cannot use nightsticks. They only do Turn Undead, and require, specifically, Turn Undead to use.

    Where is Apostle of Peace found?
    Apostle of Peace is in book of Exalted Deeds. As I mentioned in an edit to my original post, it does lack some of the spells you would want.

    My copy of Libris Mortis says that Nightsticks add to turn or rebuke. Unless there's been errata?

    For the full Cleric list at high levels, Rainbow Servant would help, though it would delay your Inspire Courage (but just as much as Ur-Priest or Apostle of Peace would).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
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  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Apostle of Peace is in book of Exalted Deeds. As I mentioned in an edit to my original post, it does lack some of the spells you would want.

    My copy of Libris Mortis says that Nightsticks add to turn or rebuke. Unless there's been errata?

    For the full Cleric list at high levels, Rainbow Servant would help, though it would delay your Inspire Courage (but just as much as Ur-Priest or Apostle of Peace would).
    Rainbow Servant would only be viable if it didn't require me to spend Spells Known on them after I get it, around ECL 16...

    If there was something like a Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necro with IC, that would be perfect to go with Rainbow Servant.

    Honestly, the problem I'm running into is that either I get the buffs, or I get the IC. I'm trying to find something that does both.

    Heck, if I just wanted the spells, there's a PrC in Faiths of Eberron which gets a bonus domain every level... tack on with Spontaneous Divine Caster so that all domain spells are on your Spells Known list for extra fun.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Also need Turn Undead, which you don't get from Ur Priest.

    Where is Heartfire Fanner from?
    HF is from Dragon #314.

    As others pointed out, Ur-priest gains Rebuke Undead at 2nd level.

    Also it would help if you actually looked at things before you vetoed them and here is why.

    Nightstick: This black rod carved of darkly stained wood
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    possesses the rod and is able to turn or rebuke undead gains
    four more uses of the ability per day.
    If you want the character to be good, Ur-priest does have a non-evil adaptation section.

  15. - Top - End - #15
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by CyMage View Post
    HF is from Dragon #314.

    As others pointed out, Ur-priest gains Rebuke Undead at 2nd level.

    Also it would help if you actually looked at things before you vetoed them and here is why.



    If you want the character to be good, Ur-priest does have a non-evil adaptation section.
    Yea, only I'd like to, yanno, do things by the rules... I could homebrew up a hybrid class in no time flat. I'm wanting to do it without rules changes.

    Not a fan of Dragon Mag. More to the point, neither is the DM.

    And both suggestions still fail to advance both IC and divine casting. It either does one or the other. Which screws the other's advancement.
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    What level will this character start at? Some of the more spectacular high level builds for this sort of thing require either some high level spells or several things in combination and are rather mediocre or even bad at lower levels.
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    So Fochluchan Lyrist gives full bardic spell and music progression. A bard ur-lyrist build using a medium amount of cheese (evil loremaster friend for Druidic, for example) would give you a lot of what you want. You could likely even adapt such a build to use Apostle of Peace.
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    There's an adaptation section for Ur-Priest that says the class could be refluffed to be used for worshippers of dead gods. Maybe you can use that in some way to let your DM waive the alignment restriction.
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    So Fochluchan Lyrist gives full bardic spell and music progression. A bard ur-lyrist build using a medium amount of cheese (evil loremaster friend for Druidic, for example) would give you a lot of what you want. You could likely even adapt such a build to use Apostle of Peace.
    Better, but Fochluchan Lyricist requires, of all things, Evasion... how the frell am I supposed to get Evasion in what is supposed to be a Bard/Druid PrC that we are twisting into a Bard/Druid/UrPriest class?
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Better, but Fochluchan Lyricist requires, of all things, Evasion... how the frell am I supposed to get Evasion in what is supposed to be a Bard/Druid PrC that we are twisting into a Bard/Druid/UrPriest class?
    A couple wasted levels are generally involved. If you look around for guides for Fochluchan Lyrist you'll find builds that can get you there with minimum waste. You won't want to take any Druid levels at all. Doing so is mildly cheesy, but your request requires some level of cheese. You probably won't have room for Crusader or Warblade, though it may be possible to replace some bard with it if you have the feats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    A couple wasted levels are generally involved. If you look around for guides for Fochluchan Lyrist you'll find builds that can get you there with minimum waste. You won't want to take any Druid levels at all. Doing so is mildly cheesy, but your request requires some level of cheese. You probably won't have room for Crusader or Warblade, though it may be possible to replace some bard with it if you have the feats.
    How can you get the Druidic language without Druid? If I can manage that, I can go straight Bard/UrPriest/Lyricist
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    How can you get the Druidic language without Druid? If I can manage that, I can go straight Bard/UrPriest/Lyricist
    Find someone who's willing to teach it to you. A Loremaster's bonus languages don't exclude secret languages like Druidic, or you could learn it from a Blighter of something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Yea, only I'd like to, yanno, do things by the rules... I could homebrew up a hybrid class in no time flat. I'm wanting to do it without rules changes.

    Not a fan of Dragon Mag. More to the point, neither is the DM.

    And both suggestions still fail to advance both IC and divine casting. It either does one or the other. Which screws the other's advancement.
    I'd suggest you either put in some more information when you as for help, or do some research yourself first. Putting in 'No Dragon', or some other limits isn't that hard, but it stops us from wasting time answering your request so it can only be shot down.

    If you consider the 'non-evil' Ur-priest to be not doing things by the rules, you will probably have issues with most of the stuff that will cover your request.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    If there was something like a Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necro with IC, that would be perfect to go with Rainbow Servant.
    Beguiler 5 / Prestige Bard 2 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Virtuoso 2, perhaps? Gets Level 9 spells, barely (assuming the text-not-table version of Rainbow Servant).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Beguiler 5 / Prestige Bard 2 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Virtuoso 2, perhaps? Gets Level 9 spells, barely (assuming the text-not-table version of Rainbow Servant).
    DMM starts pretty late in the build, though, and not much IC, only a +2?
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-09-08 at 08:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Better, but Fochluchan Lyricist requires, of all things, Evasion... how the frell am I supposed to get Evasion in what is supposed to be a Bard/Druid PrC that we are twisting into a Bard/Druid/UrPriest class?
    Easy. Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra (Feet).

    Yes, two feats is expensive, but if you're already going Ur-Priest, a little Dark Chaos Shuffle isn't really any cheesier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    DMM starts pretty late in the build, though, and not much IC, only a +2?
    I think it's only a +1, depending how you interpret the wording in Prestige Bard.

    You can do the Sacred Exorcist dip earlier in the build (and thus get DMM started sooner) if you can figure out a way to get Dismissal or Dispel Evil before you get the Rainbow Servant capstone. (Can one of the earlier Rainbow Servant levels grant those spells? Or will your DM interpret Extra Spell that way? Or are either of them just on the normal Beguiler list?)

    You can use the Versatile Spellcaster early-entry trick to get started on PrCs sooner, letting you end up with more levels in them instead of Beguiler. I think it will only save you one level, though, without additional early-entry cheese, because PrBard and Virtuoso have skill-rank prereqs. So ... hmm.
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  28. - Top - End - #28
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    The best option seems to be Fochluchan Lyrist with the most cheesy option acceptable for Evasion and Druidic, Ur-Priest (or Apostle of Peace) casting and Bard with perhaps a little Crusader thrown in.
    Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor

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    original Urpriest (by Andraste)

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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    If you're really into the "Goody Two-Shoes" and "Eschewed Combat" tropes, Apostle of Peace also has rapid cleric casting, and has easier entry requirements, plus turn undead at first level rather than second. Just make sure your DM allows you to own a holy symbol.
    Or worship The Soverign Host (Eberron) and pick up Worldly Focus. No Holy Symbol needed...

    But yeah, don't want to go the Apostle of Peace route due to the restricted spell list. Ur-Priest can work, but it eats your feats, and you don't get domain access. A straightforward Cleric, using DMM(Persistent Spell), DMM(Reach Spell), and DMM(Chain Spell), and stacking Nightsticks (LOTS of Nightsticks) does quite well. Domains Planning and Undeath get you Extend Spell and a copy of Extra Turning for cheap, meaning you need just two feats for each metamagic feat you want to apply at little cost (the feat itself, plus the DMM for it). So the feat list of a Human Cleric with those two domains would look like

    1: Persistent Spell
    HB: Divine Metamagic(persistent Spell)
    3: Reach Spell
    6: Divine Metamagic(reach spell)
    9: Chain Spell
    12: Divine Metamagic(Chain Spell)
    15: Quicken Spell
    18: Divine Metamagic(Quicken Spell)

    And there you go. Death ward all day for the entire party? Reach (3 turn attempts), Chain (4 turn attempts), Persist (7 turn attempts), = 14 Turn Attempts and the base Death Ward spell (a 4th level spell slot). Freedom of Movement for the entire party? Same. Fast Healing for the entire party? Mass Vigor + DMM(Persistent Spell); 7 turn attempts. +4 Resistance, resistance to mind control, SR vs. opposite-aligned spells, and a surprise for opposite-aligned critters that strike you in melee? One of the Aura spells (8th level) + DMM(Persistent Spell). Good to go.

    Your wealth is spent on:
    Spell Focuses
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    A Strand of Prayer Beads (two, actually - you want the Beads of Karma)
    An Orange Prism Ioun Stone (for the caster level increase)
    Cracksticks Nightsticks (Libris Mortis). Get as many of these as you can.

    Also pick up a copy of Spell Compendium - it's got some crazy-useful spells, when you can make them last all day, and apply them to the entire party.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2010-09-09 at 06:48 AM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Thurbane's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ultimate Party Support Character

    If you use War Weaver with something like Legacy Champion, you can go beyond the normal spell level limitation...

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