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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix

    This is my third homebrew, and it's probably my most ambitious yet. I'm trying to fix the fighter, and it's taken a while. Fixing the fighter is a notoriously hard task, he's got to be so many things to so many people. So in order to make this fix, I've borrowed from the work of a number of others. BRC's Brawler, Psionic Dog's Limb Loss Rules and Realms of Chaos' Fighter Fix. In fact the BRC's Brawler and Psionic Dog's rules especially, I've copied some of BRC's work, and this homebrew runs on Psionic Dog's rules. So thank you.

    This is probably my most ambitious fix yet, a whole thread has been devoted to wrestling with fixing the fighter, The Fighter Manifesto from which I've tailor-made this fix for. I've aimed to address all the requests of this thread, but I doubt I'm successful in doing so.

    Just a note: I'm aiming this to be tier three, that's inline with the Warblade, Crusader, Bard, Duskblade etc.

    And without further ado, here it is, the big one:

    The Fighter

    "Is that all you've got Dragon? Well I've got more, eat this!"


    The fighter is a guy who fights. He is the man who fronts up to battle and defeats his opposition in a number of ways, depending on his personal style. He could be gritty, flashy, dirty, honourable, whatever he chooses.

    More often than not though, the fighter is the frontline combatant, who tries to get between the rest of his party and their enemies. He's probably also the weapons guy.

    The Fighter

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Defensive Style, Favoured Weapon +1, Bonus Feat

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Fighter Ability, Fighter's Skills

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Bravery

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Fighter Ability, Bonus Feat

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Mettle, Favoured Weapon +2

    6th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Fighter Ability

    7th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Bonus Feat

    8th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Fighter Ability

    9th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Ironback

    10th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Improved Fighter Ability, Bonus Feat, Favoured Weapon +3

    11th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Improved Mettle

    12th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Improved Fighter Ability

    13th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |Bonus Feat

    14th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |Improved Fighter Ability,

    15th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |Fight On, Favoured Weapon +4

    16th|
    +16/+11/+6/+1
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Master Fighter Ability, Bonus Feat

    17th|
    +17/+12/+7/+2
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |Through the Armour

    18th|
    +18/+13/+8/+3
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |Master Fighter Ability

    19th|
    +19/+14/+9/+4
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |It was Inevitable, Bonus Feat

    20th|
    +20/+15/+10/+5
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |Perfect Fighter Ability, Bonus Feat, Favoured Weapon +5[/table]

    Hit Dice: d10
    Skills: 4+Int (x4 at 1st level).
    Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (two skills of your choice, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex).

    Class Features:

    Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: Simple, Martial and One Exotic of your choice. Armour (see defensive styles)

    Defensive Styles: At 1st, you may choose one of the defensive styles from the following:

    Unarmoured:
    Spoiler
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    You get armour proficiency with Padded armour. As an unarmoured fighter, you gain a dodge bonus to your AC equal to your Dexterity modifier when wearing Padded or no armour. You also gain a +10ft bonus to speed when wearing no armour.

    Light:
    Spoiler
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    You gain armour proficiency with light armour and shields. When wearing Light armour or less, you add 1/2 your Dex modifier (minimum 1) to your AC as a dodge bonus and you gain a +5ft bonus to speed.

    Medium:
    Spoiler
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    You gain armour proficiency with medium armour and shields. You also gain +2 to your hitpoints per Fighter level. You also may subtract -1 from the Armour Check penalties when wearing medium armour or less. This increases to -2 at 7th level, and -3 at 20th level.

    Heavy:
    Spoiler
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    You gain proficiency with heavy armour and shields, including tower shields. You also gain +2 hitpoints per Fighter level. You also gain a bonus to AC equal to your favoured weapon bonus when wearing heavy armour.


    Favoured Weapon: At 1st level, Choose a favoured weapon type which you have proficiency with. When wielding this type of weapon you gain a +1 bonus to attack, damage, disarm, sunder and trip rolls. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 15th level and +5 at 20th level. You may retrain this by spending an hour of uninterrupted training with this new type of weapon. You must have proficiency with this new weapon type.

    Bonus Feat: At 1st and 4th levels, and every three levels afterwards, you may select a bonus feat from the Fighter Feat list.

    Fighter's Mount: At 1st level, you may choose a mount, and spend one day with it of interrupted training. This yields a +1 bonus on ride and handle animal checks. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, and a further +1 every 5 levels after that. This mount is the mount referred to in all other abilities.

    Fighter Ability: At 2nd 4th, 6th and 8th levels, you may choose an ability from this set. Instead of picking an ability, you may take a Fighter Bonus Feat.

    Spoiler
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    Stunning Strike: as per Stunning Fist except you can use a weapon. Furthermore the DC is based off Str or Dex whichever is higher.

    Thundering Charge When you make a mounted charge, you may make a free intimidate check against anyone in your path. If you succeed, the intimidated enemy may not take attacks of opportunity against you, and if they have readied an action to attack you when you charge (or similar) they may not do so.

    Dirty Fighting: As a standard action, or as part of a full attack, you may sacrifice a normal attack in exchange for a dirty fighting check. You make the attack and damage rolls as normal, but the attack deals no damage. Instead, the target must succeed on a fortitude save (DC 5+damage that would have been dealt) or be treated as flat footed for 1 round.

    Uncanny Dodge: You gain the ability Uncanny Dodge, as per the Barbarian.

    Goad:As a swift action, you may to goad all enemies within 100ft. All enemies of that can hear and see you must make a will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Fighter Level +Charisma Modifier) or attack you by any means necessary. This effect last until the begining of your next turn. You may goad the enemies 1/2 Fighter level times per encounter.

    Fire!:Gain Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot even if you don't meet the prerequisites.

    Mounted Manoeuvres: Gain Mounted Combat and Ride by attack, even if you don't meet the prerequisites.

    Shield Ally: As an immediate action you may opt to absorb half the damage given to an adjacent ally. He takes half damage, you take half damage. This lasts until your next turn, this may not be used to absorb damage from spell-like or supernatural abilities, unless they involve throwing physical objects at your ally.

    Cumulative Momentum: For each missed attack in a full attack you may add a +4 on your next attack this round. This stacks. For example if you make 2 attacks and miss both of them, you will gain a +8 bonus on your third attack.

    Mounted Tactics: You receive another +1 bonus for being higher up (total +2), and you may use the combat expertise and power attack feats (Including their penalties) with your mount. For example, the rider directs his mount to use power attack. The mount's base attack for this purpose is equal to your own.

    It Builds Up: After each successful hit add 1d6 damage to the next hit. This stacks until the end of your turn, at which point it resets. For example if you make 2 successful attacks, the next gains a bonus 2d6 damage.

    A Major Distraction: Enemies that take a hit from a fighter take a penalty to their AC equal to 1/2 your Fighter Level until your next turn, if they fail a reflex save (DC= 5+Damage Dealt).

    Keep it coming: After a fighter lands a critical hit he gains Temporary HP equal to a quater of the damage dealt (maximum double your fighter level). This doesn't include DR or resistances of the opponent targeted, just the actual damage output. These temporary hit points last one minute.

    Cunning Tactics: You gain Improved Trip and Improved Disarm as bonus feats, even if you don't meet the prerequisites.

    Brutish Tactics: You gain Improved Grapple and Improved Bull Rush as bonus feats, even if you don't meet the prerequisites.

    Sneak Attack: You gain +1d6 Sneak Attack. This ability may be taken multiple times, it's effects stack.

    Mount and Rider Bond: Your mount receives the benefit of your mettle and bravery abilities. In addition, it may be pushed as if it was a druid's animal companion.

    Mounted Defence: Your mount when you're riding it, gets a bonus to AC equal your favoured weapon bonus.

    Mounted Aggression:Your mount when you're riding it, gets a bonus to attack and damage equal to your favoured weapon bonus.

    Ain't Nothing Gonna Break My Stride: You gain a +4 bonus to armor class against any attacks of opportunity you provoke by charging or bull rushing. In addition, you may charge over uneven terrain.

    Injury To Insult: Requires Cunning Tactics. Any time you successfully trip or disarm an opponent, you may make an attack against the opponent that was just disarmed or tripped at the same attack bonus as the trip attempt. This stacks with Improved Trip.

    Vigilant Defender: If an opponent attempts to use the Tumble skill to move through your threatened area or your space without provoking attacks of opportunity, the Tumble check DC to avoid your attacks of opportunity increases by an amount equal to your class level.

    Pounce: You gain the ability Pounce. If you charge a foe, you may make a full attack.

    Float like a Butterfly: You gain Dodge and Mobility as Bonus Feats even if you don't meet the prerequisites.

    Fighter's Skill: At 2nd level, choose a skill from the following: Balance, Bluff, Craft, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim and Tumble. Add 1/2 of your Fighter level (minimum 1) to skill checks of this type.

    Bravery: At 3rd level, you gain a bonus to saves against harmful fear and morale effects equal to 1/2 your Fighter level.

    Mettle: At 5th level, If you make a Will save or Fortitude save that has an effect on a successful save (such as the damage on a successful save vs. Disintegrate), you take no effect on a successful save (i.e., ‘Will half’ and ‘Fortitude partial’ become ‘Will none’ and ‘Fortitude’ none for you).

    Ironback: At 9th level, you halve the penalties relating to heavy and medium encumbrance. This doesn't extend to armour though.

    Improved Fighter Ability: At 10th, 12th, and 14th levels, you may select an ability from the following list. Instead of one of these abilities, you may select a Fighter Ability or a bonus feat, if you wish.

    Spoiler
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    Mage Fighter: At You gain the feat Mage Slayer even if you don't meet the prequisites. Additionally, if caster attempts to cast a spell normally, when they provoke an Attack of Opportunity, their concentration check is raised by your Fighter level.

    Packhorse: Your mount doubles it's carrying capacity.

    Accelerate!: Your mount gets a bonus to its speed equal to your favoured weapon bonus times 5ft.

    Lasting Wounds: On a successful critical, you deal 1d4 + 1/4 Fighter level Constitution damage. You may take a -4 penalty to your attack and attempt to deal this damage as a standard action.

    Between the Ribs: When attacking flatfooted targets, you deal 1d6 extra damage per 4 fighter levels. Requires Dirty Fighting.

    Critical Strike: As a standard action you may make an attack at your highest attack bonus. This attack, upon hitting does maxed critical damage. This stacks with lasting wounds, but does not stack with any other critical related abilities.

    Between the scales: Ignore up to 1/2 your Fighter level in DR, when making an attack on an opponent.

    Attack not the ally: When an enemy within reach attacks deals damage to an ally (not you), you may attack immediately attack the enemy, once per round at your highest attack bonus.

    Improved Mage Fighter: (requires Mage Fighter) You gain the feats Pierce Magical Concealment and Pierce Magical Protection even if you don't meet the prerequisites.

    Improved Mettle: As per Mettle, except upon a failed throw, you receive only the partial effect.

    Fight On: At 15th level, you may ignore any single attack, spell or supernatural effect for a total number of rounds per day equal to 1/2 your Fighter level plus your Constitution Modifier, if the effect is not enough to kill you. The effect doesn't affect you in any way at all until you run out of rounds, or choose to let the effect affect you. You may make saves to overcome that effect during that time.

    Master Fighter Abilities: At 16th and 18th levels, you may select an ability from this list. If you wish, instead, you may may select a fighter ability, an improved fighter ability or a bonus feat.

    Spoiler
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    Fight Back: Once per round, after taking damage, as an immediate action, you may attack back at your highest attack bonus.

    Limb Severing Blow: Once per turn you may make an attack as part of as a standard or as part of a full attack. If this attack hits it will temporarily destroy an enemies limb, if the enemy fails a (DC 10 +1/2 Fighter Level + Strength Modifier) Fortitude save. The possible targeted limbs include: Hand, Arm or a Leg.

    Mounted Toughness: Your mount gets a bonus hit dice equal to your favoured weapon bonus.

    Another One Bites the Dust: (requires Cunning Tactics and Injury to Insult) Once per turn on a successful attack, you may make a trip attempt against an opponent. This trip attempt doesn't count as an extra attack, it is an immediate action. You don't need to make the touch attack. If the trip attemtp fails, then the opponent cannot react to trip you.

    Bulwark of Defence:If an opponent begins in a square you threaten, he treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain.

    Bloodlust:You may double your attacks made in a full round once per encounter.


    Through the Armour: Once per turn, instead of making a normal attack, you may make an attack that targets the target's touch AC.

    It was Inevitable: Once per turn, on of your attacks is a automatic hit.

    Perfect Fighter Abilities: At 20th level, you may select one of these abilities from the least. If you wish, you may select a Master Fighter Ability, Improved Fighter Ability, Fighter Ability or Bonus Feat

    Spoiler
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    Killing Blow: As a standard action you may make an attack. This attack, if it hits, does normal damage, however, the enemy must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 +1/2 Fighter Level + Strength Modifier) or die.

    Head Shot: Once per turn, you may make an attack as a standard action or part of a full attack. If this attack hits, it deals normal damage. In addition, it will permanently destroy somebody's head, torso, or limbs if the enemy fails a (DC 10 +1/2 Fighter Level + Strength Modifier) Fortitude save. Creatures not vulnerable to critical hits are unaffected by this ability. Requires Limb Severing Blow.

    A Good Fighter Never Falls: Once every 3 encounters, when reduced to below 0 hit points, you may make a Fighter level check (d20+fighter level). Divide the result by 5. You may keep fighting normally for this many rounds below 0hp, even if brought to -10hp. When this ability wears off, the current state of your hit points affects you again.

    -------------------------------

    If anyone would suggest some out of combat abilites, that would be appropriate, that would be brilliant.

    In fact any suggestions would be great. Thanks guys.
    Last edited by Samm; 2011-03-23 at 02:20 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Latronis's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    advancing mettle through to improved mettle seems like a natural choice an slot into 11th nicely

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Maybe something like the favored enemy feats rangers get?

    Or any of these:

    Spoiler
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    Body Slam
    You may slam into your enemy with all the force you can muster on a successful grapple check if you so choose. Does 1d10 for each of the fighter's Hit Die. Also does half of that damage to the user.

    Finisher
    Can only use this once per hour. You may improve a single critical by one. (from x2 to x3, from x3 to x4, for example) the increase is optional but the decision must be made BEFORE damage dice are rolled.

    The Will is Everything

    You may apply your wisdom bonus to your damage rolls.

    Bloodlust

    You may double your attacks per round once every twenty minutes.


    These are just off the top of my head. I could think up something better if needed.
    Last edited by HalfTangible; 2010-09-09 at 07:36 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Latronis View Post
    advancing mettle through to improved mettle seems like a natural choice an slot into 11th nicely
    That sounds like a rather good idea. But I'm not sure of it balance wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    Maybe something like the favored enemy feats rangers get?

    Or any of these:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Body Slam
    You may slam into your enemy with all the force you can muster on a successful grapple check if you so choose. Does 1d10 for each of the fighter's Hit Die. Also does half of that damage to the user.

    Finisher
    Can only use this once per hour. You may improve a single critical by one. (from x2 to x3, from x3 to x4, for example) the increase is optional but the decision must be made BEFORE damage dice are rolled.

    The Will is Everything

    You may apply your wisdom bonus to your damage rolls.

    Bloodlust

    You may double your attacks per round once every twenty minutes.


    These are just off the top of my head. I could think up something better if needed.
    Hmm... Some of these are nice, I like them thematically, but I'm not sure about them balance wise.

    I mean, Body Slam sounds crazy for characters who have plenty of healing handy.

    Bloodlust is nice, though I'd prefer it if it were once per encounter.

    The Will is everything... I don't really think it suits this class.

    Finisher... I'm not sure. It seems nice on the surface, but the whole "choose your role before hand" thing is kind of inhibiting.

    Edit: I've added bloodlust as a master fighter ability and added Improved Mettle at 11th level.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-09-09 at 09:14 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    With good fort an will saves mettle makes a bigger difference than improved mettle. All it really does is give a little more breathing room on an unlucky roll

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Latronis View Post
    With good fort an will saves mettle makes a bigger difference than improved mettle. All it really does is give a little more breathing room on an unlucky roll
    I suppose. I guess it means that fighters become a whole lot harder to kill/lockdown, and that's probably a good thing, them being the meat shield.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Looks good for the most part. I don't like how he gets a good will save, nor do I like how he gets so many skill points.

    I do have the following suggestion, however: move Fighter skill to 2nd level, since it has no benefit until 2nd level anyway.

    Much more than your other homebrews, Samm, I feel rather locked into what kind of fighter I want to play - I understand you've catered for the widest possible, but I find the inclusion of certain abilities kinda forces you into the role.

    Let's run a few sample builds of mine, generic, using the fighter. Then'll put in a multi-class example and we'll see how the new fighter works...

    The Archer Fighter:
    Spoiler
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    Taking a dex boosting race like elf. Baring multi-classing into Scout, this build was relatively accomplishable with fighter bonus feats.
    1st: Fighter (DotU ACF, +2 ini, dex to damage vs FF opponents.)
    Point Blank shot, Rapid shot.
    2nd: Precise Shot
    3rd: Bow slinger/generic other/Devotion feat.
    4th: Combat feat
    5th: -
    6th: Manyshot, Greater Manyshot

    Lets assume a dex of 24 (18+2 race+4 magic item), he's a pretty good archer. He works well also if he needs to push into melee, but, he really comes in handy in the first round of combat where his greater manyshot or rapidshot really puts out the pain. In terms of Skills he's putting his limited points into stuff like tumble and combat skills, so he's not very useful out of combat.

    The Fixed Fighter
    Same race and ACF choice. I have to take the Heavy Armor defence choice. This irks me, so I'll have to drop the Dex to damage ACF. Picking up light defensive style. Favoured weapon (Long bow) is a nice thing though, but not a huge bonus. It'll come in handy as I level, since I'll be maximising my rate of fire, and that extra 2-4 points of attack and damage will do nicely.
    1st: Point Blank Shot. I cannot take rapid shot unless I am a human or if I take flaws. This is irritating, but not really too bad. Picking up light armor style nets me a decent AC, thanks.
    2nd: I'd like to take It Builds Up, but I don't have the Rate of fire to make it useful. Therefore I have to take Rapid Shot. Level 1 has been rather poor.
    3rd: I get bravery, ok. I take a non-combat feat/devotion/fluff or whatever.
    4th: This is a good level, much better than the others. I pick Precise Shot and It Builds Up. Now with the 2 attacks from Rapidshot I'll get +3d6 damage if I fire at the same guy. Useful for focus fire when it counts.
    5th: I get Mettle. Ok, pretty cool.
    6th: I want to get Greater Manyshot, so I do. taking Manyshot as well of course.
    7th: I know the sample build above only went to 6th, but here I get a bonus feat. That's pretty cool. I also get more at 8th, I'll prolly pick up Uncanny Dodge or perhaps A Major Distraction, since -4 ac is nice.

    As an alternative, say if I was rocking up to a game already at 6th level:
    1st: Point Blank shot, Skill, Favoured Weapon, Dodge bonus to AC
    2nd: It Builds Up.
    3rd: Rapid Shot, Bravery.
    4th: Precise Shot, Uncanny Dodge.
    5th: Mettle.
    6th: Manyshot, Greater Manyshot.

    Summary:
    The Fixed Fighter is lacking at the lower levels. Lack of a 1st level bonus feat makes him rather unattractive to people starting at 1st level. I mean, lets take a look at the Crusader. Randomness aside (since most maneouvers are good anyway), you've got delayed damage, almost as many skill points, some supernatural divine abilities, the ability to heal yourself, buff your friends, heal your friends - and it gets better later. 1st level Druid is almost incomparable to this, getting spells, wisdom based abilities, an animal companion. 1st level Cleric can actually be better even without spells thanks to the domains he gets, for example Elf Domain for Point Blank Shot and then a Devotion feat for a bonus, and he can still take Rapid Shot.

    The dodge to AC is nice, I'll give it that. But the first level is rather a turn off for me, if I want to be an archer guy. Skills make him slightly more useful, but in the end its going to be the same. There'll be that character in the party who is the diplomat, there'll be the trapkiller. Fighter never was meant to fill those niches, hence his limited skillset. It is nice to have the option, though.


    The Two Weapon Fighter
    Spoiler
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    This is a common build, working well from an early level with fighter. What gave fighter the edge on the lower level TWF builds was his bonus feat, allowing the player to take a race that gave ability bonuses. Let's say I go Wood Elf, Str 14 and Dex 18. Not out of the question given ok rolls or a ppoint buy.

    1st: Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon fighting.
    2nd: Combat Reflexes
    3rd: Travel Devotion?
    4th: Deft Opportunist
    6th: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Double hit

    Quite effective, not the most optimal build, but can hold it's own in combat. With high dex the guy is harder to hit of course, and all the good things about having higher dex - standing in front of your allies or getting up in the enemies face. Taking two energy weapons will pump his damage and enable him to get a lot of mileage out of the old Haste or Energy Blade spell.

    The Fixed Fighter:
    1st: Again, this guy loses out since I can't select weapon finesse. That's semi okay. I get a bonus on attack rolls, useful. Picking Light armor style.
    2nd: Awsome, I just got pounce. But I still don't have weapon finesse.
    3rd: Bravery. Okay. I'll pick up Weapon Finesse.
    4th: YES. It Builds Up and I'll take Combat Reflexes.
    5th: Mettle. Ok.
    6th: Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Double hit. With Double hit my pounced opponent will find it harder to get away.

    Okay, on first glance it's a winner. However, there's a definite depreciation in the 1st level, again. 2nd level is just awesome. It builds Up becomes terribly awesome. But still. 5th is meh, 3rd is meh. The two weapon fighter is really good now.


    The Greatsword Guy
    Spoiler
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    A straight "I power attack and deal so much damage" build. We start with any race really. Again, the bonus feat at 1st level is a big boon for this guy.
    1st: Power Attack. Cleave.
    2nd: Improved Sunder/Improved Bull Rush
    3rd: Death Devotion or whatever.
    4th: Great Cleave.
    5th: -
    6th: Non-fighter feat (power charge?) and Shock Trooper.

    Works nicely. Does nothing else really, but is fun to play. What he lacks in barbarian rage he makes up for by having more feats and things to do with them. Shock trooper makes it nice. Very nice.

    The Fixed Fighter:
    Again, lack of a 1st level bonus feat makes it less attractive. But still:
    1st: Power Attack. Heavy Armor guy, favoured weapon is nice.
    2nd: Pounce. Yes please. Roll it into power attack, there's a good chap.
    3rd: Cleave, Bravery. Ho hum. Cleave is kinda not so useful now, but hey.
    4th: "Ain't Nothing gonna break My stride" and Great Cleave? Yes please.
    5th: Mettle. Meh.
    6th: Shock Trooper and Improved Bullrush. YES. With the boost to AC from the Heavy Fighter style, Shock Trooper becomes more awesome.

    Okay, this build is awesome. Thank you.


    Spiked Chain Fighter!
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    A firm favourite, I've seen. Named after his tripping tricks and spiked chain.
    1st: EWP (Spiked Chain). Combat Reflexes.
    2nd: Combat Expertise.
    3rd: Improved Trip.
    4th: Stand Still.
    5th: -
    6th: Deft Opportunist, something else.

    This guy was good at 1st level, got awesome by 3rd and sorta went okay after that. Alot of fun to play, I thought. He's the guy to play if you're looking for a complex fighter. he's pretty versatile as well.

    The Fixed Figher
    Straight up, no problem with the lack of a bonus feat. We've got chain prof! For the 1st level feat:
    1st: Combat Reflexes.
    2nd: Cunning Tactics. Thank you. We just got Improved Trip and Disarm, no need for int 13 or anything!
    3rd: Bravery. Deft opportunist makes this guy more punishing.
    4th: Yay. Injury to Insult, yes please. Then, we take Stand Still, that is nice.
    5th: Mettle.
    6th: Everything just got more awesome. Thanks. Taking It Builds Up or taking Vigilant Defender? I have a choice. Also taking something like - this is the good thing, I have a free feat at 6th level.

    Chain tripper wins big. Cunning tactics is awesome. It Builds Up just gets disgusting when combined with a full trip attack and then AOOs when they do anything, so 2 attacks at 6th, trip on the 2nd, bonus attack, another bonus attack, Then the AOO now has +5d6 damage. Standstill got even better as well.


    The Mounted Guy, Don't Knock him.
    Spoiler
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    This build is rather rare, but is pretty cool. Fighter was pretty much the only way to go unless you wanted to burn loads of feats and get pretty much nowhere.
    1st: Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack
    2nd: Spirited Charge
    3rd: Power Attack
    4th: Wild Cohort.
    5th: -
    6th: Powerful Charge? Shield Block? Shock Trooper? Free hit.

    Can deal insane ammounts of damage, but suffers without the multiple attacks. Straight up lance dealing d8+4+12 Power attack tripled etc. Taking wild Cohort makes your horsey slightly better. Give it Martial Study and Martial Stance (Island of blades) to get you flanking or whatnot, or make it take white raven maneouvers. Charge damage bonuses are nice.

    Or you can be funny and give your horse Bind Vestige. Because a warhorse is so pro at summoning ancient spirits and drawing pentagrams.

    The fixed Fighter
    Oh... It's much harder to do.
    1st: Favoured Weapon, meh. I'll take Mounted Combat. Taking the Medium Armor Prof is cool, since it reduces the check penalty to ride checks.
    2nd: None of the abilities do much for me. Pounce is cool, but doesn't really work on a mount until later levels. I'll take a feat: Ride by Attack.
    3rd: Bravery, Spirited Charge. Damage just bumped up. Alot.
    4th: taking 2 bonus feats - Power Attack and Powerful Charge. Nice.
    5th: Mettle, meh.
    6th: Pounce and Shock Trooper. Yes please. Damage just skyrocketed. Charging is so awsome. Fighter Skills makes Ride easier.

    But still. Horsey guy does not really work NEARLY as well as the original fighter. I understand there's meant to be some other class for that, but there isn't really. We lost Wild Cohort, but hey.


    All in all, hope that's given some insight into some things that the Fighter Fix lacks, namely, the 1st level bonus feat - it cripples some of the more esoteric builds. I'd like to see more support for mounted fighters and archery fghters... Maybe remove one of the super awsome 4th level thing and give us the boni feat at 1st level? Perhaps some archery focused abilities and mounted abilities. Thanks.

    Well Done.
    Last edited by Cadian 9th; 2010-09-09 at 11:14 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadian 9th View Post
    Looks good for the most part. I don't like how he gets a good will save, nor do I like how he gets so many skill points.
    So 4 skill points per level? Because anything lower than that is utterly fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadian 9th View Post
    I do have the following suggestion, however: move Fighter skill to 2nd level, since it has no benefit until 2nd level anyway..
    Cool, sounds like a reasonable thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadian 9th View Post
    Much more than your other homebrews, Samm, I feel rather locked into what kind of fighter I want to play - I understand you've catered for the widest possible, but I find the inclusion of certain abilities kinda forces you into the role.

    Let's run a few sample builds of mine, generic, using the fighter. Then'll put in a multi-class example and we'll see how the new fighter works...

    The Archer Fighter:
    Spoiler
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    Taking a dex boosting race like elf. Baring multi-classing into Scout, this build was relatively accomplishable with fighter bonus feats.
    1st: Fighter (DotU ACF, +2 ini, dex to damage vs FF opponents.)
    Point Blank shot, Rapid shot.
    2nd: Precise Shot
    3rd: Bow slinger/generic other/Devotion feat.
    4th: Combat feat
    5th: -
    6th: Manyshot, Greater Manyshot

    Lets assume a dex of 24 (18+2 race+4 magic item), he's a pretty good archer. He works well also if he needs to push into melee, but, he really comes in handy in the first round of combat where his greater manyshot or rapidshot really puts out the pain. In terms of Skills he's putting his limited points into stuff like tumble and combat skills, so he's not very useful out of combat.

    The Fixed Fighter
    Same race and ACF choice. I have to take the Heavy Armor defence choice. This irks me, so I'll have to drop the Dex to damage ACF. Picking up light defensive style. Favoured weapon (Long bow) is a nice thing though, but not a huge bonus. It'll come in handy as I level, since I'll be maximising my rate of fire, and that extra 2-4 points of attack and damage will do nicely.
    1st: Point Blank Shot. I cannot take rapid shot unless I am a human or if I take flaws. This is irritating, but not really too bad. Picking up light armor style nets me a decent AC, thanks.
    2nd: I'd like to take It Builds Up, but I don't have the Rate of fire to make it useful. Therefore I have to take Rapid Shot. Level 1 has been rather poor.
    3rd: I get bravery, ok. I take a non-combat feat/devotion/fluff or whatever.
    4th: This is a good level, much better than the others. I pick Precise Shot and It Builds Up. Now with the 2 attacks from Rapidshot I'll get +3d6 damage if I fire at the same guy. Useful for focus fire when it counts.
    5th: I get Mettle. Ok, pretty cool.
    6th: I want to get Greater Manyshot, so I do. taking Manyshot as well of course.
    7th: I know the sample build above only went to 6th, but here I get a bonus feat. That's pretty cool. I also get more at 8th, I'll prolly pick up Uncanny Dodge or perhaps A Major Distraction, since -4 ac is nice.

    As an alternative, say if I was rocking up to a game already at 6th level:
    1st: Point Blank shot, Skill, Favoured Weapon, Dodge bonus to AC
    2nd: It Builds Up.
    3rd: Rapid Shot, Bravery.
    4th: Precise Shot, Uncanny Dodge.
    5th: Mettle.
    6th: Manyshot, Greater Manyshot.

    Summary:
    The Fixed Fighter is lacking at the lower levels. Lack of a 1st level bonus feat makes him rather unattractive to people starting at 1st level. I mean, lets take a look at the Crusader. Randomness aside (since most maneouvers are good anyway), you've got delayed damage, almost as many skill points, some supernatural divine abilities, the ability to heal yourself, buff your friends, heal your friends - and it gets better later. 1st level Druid is almost incomparable to this, getting spells, wisdom based abilities, an animal companion. 1st level Cleric can actually be better even without spells thanks to the domains he gets, for example Elf Domain for Point Blank Shot and then a Devotion feat for a bonus, and he can still take Rapid Shot.

    The dodge to AC is nice, I'll give it that. But the first level is rather a turn off for me, if I want to be an archer guy. Skills make him slightly more useful, but in the end its going to be the same. There'll be that character in the party who is the diplomat, there'll be the trapkiller. Fighter never was meant to fill those niches, hence his limited skillset. It is nice to have the option, though.


    The Two Weapon Fighter
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    This is a common build, working well from an early level with fighter. What gave fighter the edge on the lower level TWF builds was his bonus feat, allowing the player to take a race that gave ability bonuses. Let's say I go Wood Elf, Str 14 and Dex 18. Not out of the question given ok rolls or a ppoint buy.

    1st: Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon fighting.
    2nd: Combat Reflexes
    3rd: Travel Devotion?
    4th: Deft Opportunist
    6th: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Double hit

    Quite effective, not the most optimal build, but can hold it's own in combat. With high dex the guy is harder to hit of course, and all the good things about having higher dex - standing in front of your allies or getting up in the enemies face. Taking two energy weapons will pump his damage and enable him to get a lot of mileage out of the old Haste or Energy Blade spell.

    The Fixed Fighter:
    1st: Again, this guy loses out since I can't select weapon finesse. That's semi okay. I get a bonus on attack rolls, useful. Picking Light armor style.
    2nd: Awsome, I just got pounce. But I still don't have weapon finesse.
    3rd: Bravery. Okay. I'll pick up Weapon Finesse.
    4th: YES. It Builds Up and I'll take Combat Reflexes.
    5th: Mettle. Ok.
    6th: Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Double hit. With Double hit my pounced opponent will find it harder to get away.

    Okay, on first glance it's a winner. However, there's a definite depreciation in the 1st level, again. 2nd level is just awesome. It builds Up becomes terribly awesome. But still. 5th is meh, 3rd is meh. The two weapon fighter is really good now.


    The Greatsword Guy
    Spoiler
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    A straight "I power attack and deal so much damage" build. We start with any race really. Again, the bonus feat at 1st level is a big boon for this guy.
    1st: Power Attack. Cleave.
    2nd: Improved Sunder/Improved Bull Rush
    3rd: Death Devotion or whatever.
    4th: Great Cleave.
    5th: -
    6th: Non-fighter feat (power charge?) and Shock Trooper.

    Works nicely. Does nothing else really, but is fun to play. What he lacks in barbarian rage he makes up for by having more feats and things to do with them. Shock trooper makes it nice. Very nice.

    The Fixed Fighter:
    Again, lack of a 1st level bonus feat makes it less attractive. But still:
    1st: Power Attack. Heavy Armor guy, favoured weapon is nice.
    2nd: Pounce. Yes please. Roll it into power attack, there's a good chap.
    3rd: Cleave, Bravery. Ho hum. Cleave is kinda not so useful now, but hey.
    4th: "Ain't Nothing gonna break My stride" and Great Cleave? Yes please.
    5th: Mettle. Meh.
    6th: Shock Trooper and Improved Bullrush. YES. With the boost to AC from the Heavy Fighter style, Shock Trooper becomes more awesome.

    Okay, this build is awesome. Thank you.


    Spiked Chain Fighter!
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    A firm favourite, I've seen. Named after his tripping tricks and spiked chain.
    1st: EWP (Spiked Chain). Combat Reflexes.
    2nd: Combat Expertise.
    3rd: Improved Trip.
    4th: Stand Still.
    5th: -
    6th: Deft Opportunist, something else.

    This guy was good at 1st level, got awesome by 3rd and sorta went okay after that. Alot of fun to play, I thought. He's the guy to play if you're looking for a complex fighter. he's pretty versatile as well.

    The Fixed Figher
    Straight up, no problem with the lack of a bonus feat. We've got chain prof! For the 1st level feat:
    1st: Combat Reflexes.
    2nd: Cunning Tactics. Thank you. We just got Improved Trip and Disarm, no need for int 13 or anything!
    3rd: Bravery. Deft opportunist makes this guy more punishing.
    4th: Yay. Injury to Insult, yes please. Then, we take Stand Still, that is nice.
    5th: Mettle.
    6th: Everything just got more awesome. Thanks. Taking It Builds Up or taking Vigilant Defender? I have a choice. Also taking something like - this is the good thing, I have a free feat at 6th level.

    Chain tripper wins big. Cunning tactics is awesome. It Builds Up just gets disgusting when combined with a full trip attack and then AOOs when they do anything, so 2 attacks at 6th, trip on the 2nd, bonus attack, another bonus attack, Then the AOO now has +5d6 damage. Standstill got even better as well.


    The Mounted Guy, Don't Knock him.
    Spoiler
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    This build is rather rare, but is pretty cool. Fighter was pretty much the only way to go unless you wanted to burn loads of feats and get pretty much nowhere.
    1st: Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack
    2nd: Spirited Charge
    3rd: Power Attack
    4th: Wild Cohort.
    5th: -
    6th: Powerful Charge? Shield Block? Shock Trooper? Free hit.

    Can deal insane ammounts of damage, but suffers without the multiple attacks. Straight up lance dealing d8+4+12 Power attack tripled etc. Taking wild Cohort makes your horsey slightly better. Give it Martial Study and Martial Stance (Island of blades) to get you flanking or whatnot, or make it take white raven maneouvers. Charge damage bonuses are nice.

    Or you can be funny and give your horse Bind Vestige. Because a warhorse is so pro at summoning ancient spirits and drawing pentagrams.

    The fixed Fighter
    Oh... It's much harder to do.
    1st: Favoured Weapon, meh. I'll take Mounted Combat. Taking the Medium Armor Prof is cool, since it reduces the check penalty to ride checks.
    2nd: None of the abilities do much for me. Pounce is cool, but doesn't really work on a mount until later levels. I'll take a feat: Ride by Attack.
    3rd: Bravery, Spirited Charge. Damage just bumped up. Alot.
    4th: taking 2 bonus feats - Power Attack and Powerful Charge. Nice.
    5th: Mettle, meh.
    6th: Pounce and Shock Trooper. Yes please. Damage just skyrocketed. Charging is so awsome. Fighter Skills makes Ride easier.

    But still. Horsey guy does not really work NEARLY as well as the original fighter. I understand there's meant to be some other class for that, but there isn't really. We lost Wild Cohort, but hey.


    All in all, hope that's given some insight into some things that the Fighter Fix lacks, namely, the 1st level bonus feat - it cripples some of the more esoteric builds. I'd like to see more support for mounted fighters and archery fghters... Maybe remove one of the super awsome 4th level thing and give us the boni feat at 1st level? Perhaps some archery focused abilities and mounted abilities. Thanks.

    Well Done.
    Okay... so Feat at 1st level, is a definite. What about abilities that combine a few mounted feats, or maybe some archery feats? I'll work on this tomorrow. I'm bloody tired now.

    And yeah, thanks for your input everyone.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-09-10 at 07:11 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Okay, Sorry for the double post, but I'd just like to update.

    I've added a bonus feat at first level, I've moved Fighter's skill to 2nd level and I've dropped the number of skill points down to 4+Int.

    I'm also thinking of adding this fighter ability, in response to the Dante's comment about ranged fighters now with this new fix:

    Fire!: Gain Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot even if you don't meet the perquisites.

    For a mounted build, I'm not quite so sure maybe:

    Mounted Manoeuvres: Gain Mounted Combat and Ride by attack, even if you don't meet the prequisities.

    Also, I'm thinking of limiting the fighter ability "It Builds Up", so that it only applies during your turn and doesn't include AOOs. Is that a good idea?

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Okay, all of the builds above just got much better.

    Mounted Maneouvers is kinda Meh: Perhaps...

    Lance and Sword
    You thunder towards the enemy, skewering your target on your lance. Even as your foes react, you have drawn your sword and are hacking into them.
    Requires Quick Draw
    You may attack with a quick drawn sword at the end of a mounted charge in addition to your lance attack. You must have your sword hand free to use this ability.

    Thundering Charge
    No enemy can stand in your way. You are a tidal wave of martial power, sweeping aside the enemy with no resistance.
    Requires Trample
    When you make a mounted charge, you may make a free intimidate check against anyone in your path. If you succeed, the intimidated enemy may not take attacks of opportunity against you, and if they have readied an action to attack you when you charge (or similar) they may not do so.

    Mount and Rider Bond
    Your mount and you have a closer bond than before. Your devotion to each other knows few limits.
    Your mount receives the benefit of your mettle and bravery abilities. In addition, it may be pushed as if it was a druid's animal companion.

    Mounted Tactics
    Your expertise with mounted combat has reached new hieghts.
    You receive another +1 bonus for being higher up (total +2), and you may use the combat expertise and power attack feats (Including their penalties) with your mount. For example, the rider directs his mount to use power attack. The mount's base attack for this purpose is equal to your own.

    I wouldn't give Mounted Combat and the like as bonus feats, because, you don't get a fighter ability till after 1st level and you'll already have those feats.

    On archery, I'm not sure. Vital Aim (Dragon Mag) and Dead-eye would be cool.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadian 9th View Post
    Okay, all of the builds above just got much better.

    Mounted Maneouvers is kinda Meh: Perhaps...

    Lance and Sword
    You thunder towards the enemy, skewering your target on your lance. Even as your foes react, you have drawn your sword and are hacking into them.
    Requires Quick Draw
    You may attack with a quick drawn sword at the end of a mounted charge in addition to your lance attack. You must have your sword hand free to use this ability.

    Thundering Charge
    No enemy can stand in your way. You are a tidal wave of martial power, sweeping aside the enemy with no resistance.
    Requires Trample
    When you make a mounted charge, you may make a free intimidate check against anyone in your path. If you succeed, the intimidated enemy may not take attacks of opportunity against you, and if they have readied an action to attack you when you charge (or similar) they may not do so.

    Mount and Rider Bond
    Your mount and you have a closer bond than before. Your devotion to each other knows few limits.
    Your mount receives the benefit of your mettle and bravery abilities. In addition, it may be pushed as if it was a druid's animal companion.

    Mounted Tactics
    Your expertise with mounted combat has reached new hieghts.
    You receive another +1 bonus for being higher up (total +2), and you may use the combat expertise and power attack feats (Including their penalties) with your mount. For example, the rider directs his mount to use power attack. The mount's base attack for this purpose is equal to your own.

    I wouldn't give Mounted Combat and the like as bonus feats, because, you don't get a fighter ability till after 1st level and you'll already have those feats.

    On archery, I'm not sure. Vital Aim (Dragon Mag) and Dead-eye would be cool.
    Hmm... I like some of these. Mount and Rider bond is definitely a higher level ability, so maybe an Improved Fighter Ability.

    Mounted tactics is nice. I'll put that as a Fighter Ability.

    Lance and Sword? If that's going ahead, we should make other weapon styles. But it's cool.

    With Thundering Charge, I don't think it should have to be mounted. Nor should trample be a perquisite in my opinion. I don't see what they have to do with each other...

    Edit: Added Mount and Rider Bond as an Improved Fighter Ability, and Mounted Tactics as a Fighter Ability.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-09-11 at 01:24 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Umm, no offence Samm, but there's no way that I would take Mount and Rider bond that late. I don't think as an ability giving your Mount the evasion equivalent and a bonus on morale, plus the ability to handle it as a lesser action is worth giving up some of the very nice higher level fighter abilities.

    Sounds good otherwise. Thundering Charge should be used with trample because your mount is quite able looking and is coming straight at you. Trample means the target cannot avoid you - and your mount can make attacks against them too. Basically I thought people would be spooked by the fact that the horse is quite the warbeast and is going to knock them flying and trample them.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Okay, I'll bring Mount and Rider Bond forward a little. I'll make it a Fighter Ability.

    And yeah, I guess Thundering Charge requiring Trample is justified, but where should it fit? I was thinking a Fighter ability.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-09-11 at 02:05 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Okay, I'll bring Mount and Rider Bond forward a little. I'll make it a Fighter Ability.

    And yeah, I guess Thundering Charge requiring Trample is justified, but where should it fit? I was thinking a Fighter ability.
    Cool. 10th level ability to get the slight benefits of a 3rd level animal companion? I'd rather take wild Cohort, thanks.

    It could work for any fighter, it just fits more (to me at least) as a mounted charge ability. The bane of every DnD knight charger, the fact that the commoner with simple weapon prof (spear) can, you know, hold his ground and still spear the massive horse on its way in, since he's so disciplined.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadian 9th View Post
    Cool. 10th level ability to get the slight benefits of a 3rd level animal companion? I'd rather take wild Cohort, thanks.
    Yeah, I've moved it so it's available at 2nd level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadian 9th View Post
    It could work for any fighter, it just fits more (to me at least) as a mounted charge ability. The bane of every DnD knight charger, the fact that the commoner with simple weapon prof (spear) can, you know, hold his ground and still spear the massive horse on its way in, since he's so disciplined.
    Well that's the masive failing of cavalry in real life. As soon as they took on spearmen who would lock ranks and point their spears towards the enemy, the cavalry would fail. They'd either impale themselves on the spears or halt right in front of the spears. Of course if the soldiers broke ranks and ran, they'd get hacked down, that's the point of Thundering Charge I suppose. But where should it kick in?

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Sorry for the double post. But here's a bit of an update.

    I've changed Knockout blow to Killing blow and drastically improved Headshot. (see perfect fighter abilities)

    I've also added Thundering Charge as a Fighter Ability.

    Additionally, I've changed Between the ribs to be an automatic critical upon landing the hit.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-09-13 at 03:19 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    All good. I will be testing this homebrew out after my exams. Currently I'm thinking of some of my own abilities to add to the homebrew, if that's ok with you. I'll suggest them as they come up.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadian 9th View Post
    All good. I will be testing this homebrew out after my exams. Currently I'm thinking of some of my own abilities to add to the homebrew, if that's ok with you. I'll suggest them as they come up.
    Dante, I'm more than happy to hear your suggestions. At the moment this homebrew feels to me like a whole lot of half-baked ideas that really need work on. I think that some of this may need modification.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-09-13 at 05:01 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Bears With Lasers' fighter fix gives the fighter Arts of War, which are conveniently enough divided into four categories like your Fighter Abilities, and each category is given out at roughly the same levels. I'm sure there's stuff you can pull from there.

    Also, maybe give some gear-related bonuses? Higher carrying capacity, reduced penalties for medium/heavy encumbrance, something like that.
    Last edited by Agent_0042; 2010-09-13 at 06:47 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent_0042 View Post
    Bears With Lasers' fighter fix gives the fighter Arts of War, which are conveniently enough divided into four categories like your Fighter Abilities, and each category is given out at roughly the same levels. I'm sure there's stuff you can pull from there.

    Also, maybe give some gear-related bonuses? Higher carrying capacity, reduced penalties for medium/heavy encumbrance, something like that.
    Hmm. Some of those abilities are nice, but Bears with Lasers is banned, I'm not sure how to ask permission to use some of his abilities.

    Also, yeah, maybe those sort of things may be a good idea. I'm not quite sure how to implement them though.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    *sighs*

    Question 1- Why do classes even exist?
    Answer- To provide niche protection to players of particular characters in a semi-competitive context.

    Question 2- How do I make the Fighter not infringe on other classes' niches while remaining flexible?
    Answer- By making the Fighter weaker than other classes when it comes to all their key specialties.

    Question 3- How do I make the Fighter equally powerful when compared against those other classes?
    Answer- You can't. If you do, there's no reason to pick those other classes. The Fighter would be just as powerful as them, but more flexible. It would be too easy to step on other players' toes.

    Question 4- What if I give the Fighter a particular specialty that only he/she can be good at?
    Answer- Then it won't be the Fighter anymore.

    ...Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I have to redirect an unstoppable force around an immovable object.
    Last edited by Samurai Jill; 2010-09-14 at 02:57 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Jill View Post
    Stuff
    So what you are saying here is that any attempt to "Fix" The fighter is automatically doomed to failure, therefore nobody should even try?

    Never mind that the existence of both Sorcerers and Wizards negates your first point, since they both occupy the "Niche" of arcane spellcaster. They are different styles of arcane spellcaster, but they both fulfill the same purpose. By that same regard, Warlocks occupy a similar Niche, how about Duskblades.
    By that logic, the Factotum is the ultimate failure of a class, since it, by design, can fulfill a wide variety of roles!

    By your reasoning, what is the "Niche" of the Druid? How about the Paladin?

    Classes arn't about filling a unique role, they're about providing a unique style of character. Thats why we have Fighters (People generally skilled in combat) Barbarians (People who use go berserk in combat to give them an edge), Paladins (Holy warriors who supplement their martial skills with divine magic), Rangers (Skilled in wilderness survival in addition to combat), Duskblades (People who supplement their martial skills with arcane magic), Monks (People who fight unarmed and unarmored), Swashbucklers (People who rely in speed and intelligence to fight, rather than strength and armor), Knights (People skilled in combat who are focused on defense and are capable of issuing challenges), and probably several other classes I forgot to mention. All of them can be seen as fufilling the "Niche" of "Guy who is good at standard combat", yet they each do it in their own unique way.

    Even assuming you're right about the purpose of a class (Which you are not), your argument is totally circular. You're saying that any Fighter Fix is doomed to fail, and that even if they succeed, they fail because it is then not a fighter fix. It's like saying "How do I get my car out of the ditch without it leaving the ditch"
    Last edited by BRC; 2010-09-14 at 03:32 PM.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Jill View Post
    Question 1- Why do classes even exist?
    Answer- To provide niche protection to players of particular characters in a semi-competitive context.
    Uh, to accomodate different types of character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Jill View Post
    Question 2- How do I make the Fighter not infringe on other classes' niches while remaining flexible?
    Answer- By making the Fighter weaker than other classes when it comes to all their key specialties.
    Yeah I agree totally. Don't give the fighter the ability to rage, or use manoeuvres (in the case of my fix), don't give him a smite attack. Don't give him spell-casting. etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Jill View Post
    Question 3- How do I make the Fighter equally powerful when compared against those other classes?
    Answer- You can't. If you do, there's no reason to pick those other classes. The Fighter would be just as powerful as them, but more flexible. It would be too easy to step on other players' toes.
    This is actually a reasonable question. The idea is to give the fighter abilities that represent experience and practice, in the field. The Fighter is meant to pick up some tricks that other classes may not be able to pick up on. This is because at the heart of it, the fighter concentrates on combat itself. This is unlike the Barbarian, who concentrates on raging, or the Paladin who concentrates his divine powers. The goal is to make all these classes have equal contributions to the party, but get them in a different manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Jill View Post
    Question 4- What if I give the Fighter a particular specialty that only he/she can be good at?
    Answer- Then it won't be the Fighter anymore.
    Fighting? Down-to-earth mundane fighting based off experience rather than anger, magic, divine power or weird psuedo-magic (TOB). The idea, this guy focuses on combat; he masters the art of fighting, as opposed to the art of fighting when enraged, with magic, with manoeuvres etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Jill View Post
    ...Now, if you'll excuse me, I think I have to redirect an unstoppable force around an immovable object.
    I don't know, but that's a little annoying. I mean, it's not really contributing to the thread, or solving the problem.
    Last edited by Samm; 2010-09-14 at 06:23 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Personally I think the fighter does what he's meant to do well, and I can make the fighter works.

    HOWEVER. It's only due to my "experience" in building things. Fighters are good since they get bonus feats. They've got some cool ACFs, IMO, and they've got the profs, the Base attack to make them worth it in a pro build. Looking at any uber melee build, you'd be hard pressed to find a build which doesn't include 2 levels of fighter or something.

    So, this fix is making it better for everyone to play a fighter, much like a druid can take the most soboptimal feats, taking natural spell and will perform exceptionally well.

    I'm all for that.

    EDIT:
    And for the whole Class Niche thing, I disagree. I believe that the classes represent a mechanical way to potray your character.

    For example, Cloud Strife. In terms of his Advent Children version, he can run up walls, jump really high and get into a super power up mode where he strikes alot of times and goes all blue and powerful. He teleport strikes and wields a massive sword.

    Now, I'd consider representing him with Whirling Frenzy Barbarian. What? Some people may ask... Well, I pick that since he's got fast movement, athleticskills as class skills, and a power up state where he moves faster and is seemingly super strong. Then he's tough and profficient. I'd pick feats such as Up the Walls and Leap of the Heavens, as well as the wallrunner/walljump skill tricks. I'd multi-class into a smiting/power attack class, not because I think cloud strife is a frothing barbarian, but because I feel the mechanics of those classes represent the character I'm playing's abilities.
    Last edited by Cadian 9th; 2010-09-14 at 06:49 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent_0042 View Post
    Also, maybe give some gear-related bonuses? Higher carrying capacity, reduced penalties for medium/heavy encumbrance, something like that.
    I've had a think about this. I've decided on a creating an ability to emulate this, it'll kick in at level 9. So, it'll fill the dead level, but I'm not sure If I really should include it or make it optional, or build it into the class design.

    Packhorse: You halve the penalties relating to heavy and medium encumbrance. This doesn't extend to armour though.

    What do we think?

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Looks good, Samm. Maybe something other than Packhorse for a name though, its one thing to be below wizards, another to have a class feature called Pack horse.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadian 9th View Post
    Looks good, Samm. Maybe something other than Packhorse for a name though, its one thing to be below wizards, another to have a class feature called Pack horse.
    Ah... maybe "Ironback"? How does that sound?

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    This looks pretty solid. Maybe you should consider adding some abilities that help mounted chargers a little more. Train mount, for example, could be an ability that helps you improve the mount's abilities or add one or more fighter abilities to the mount.
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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Simba View Post
    This looks pretty solid. Maybe you should consider adding some abilities that help mounted chargers a little more. Train mount, for example, could be an ability that helps you improve the mount's abilities or add one or more fighter abilities to the mount.
    Thanks.

    Train mount? How would it work? That's a little too similar to the animal companion... I'm not sure, but I think I need to help out mounted builds. I'll probably add Fire! and Mounted Manoeuvres.

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    Default Re: [3.5] [PEACH] The Fighter: A Fix (or something of the sort)

    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    Thanks.

    Train mount? How would it work? That's a little too similar to the animal companion... I'm not sure, but I think I need to help out mounted builds. I'll probably add Fire! and Mounted Manoeuvres.
    Well, a mount does usually not level, right? So it becomes rather weak over time, when the fighter is high leveled and still relies on a normal mount, like a horse. For a mounted fighter, his mount is special and he does not want to retrain a new one after each major encounter. I tried and failed to keep the poor warhorse alive because the enemy kept killing my horse to get me off it.

    As a mounted warrior you want a steed that stays with you over the levels, that grows with you and helps you until the end. It is a lot like a Paladin's mount, a Wizard's familiar or Ranger's/Druid's companion so it needs some special love, too. Maybe a fighter could get the ability to call a "knight's warhorse" to be his mount, an animal with some level dependant special features to give it a higher chance to still be alive after the knight charged the dragon.

    Some ideas: Create a chain of abilities that improve on a mounted fighter's mount as he levels. Ideas might include:

    - templates (warbeast? dire? legendary )
    - more HDs
    - better resistances (fear, damage, energy)
    - higher speed
    - better AC
    - some tricks of its own
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