Mindrape. Powerful yes, but can it do this?

[Parra]

Ok, so as a DM Im using the mindrape spell to alter the perceptions of the PC's. After discussing it with a friend he disagree's with the degree to which I am using the Mindrape spell to achieve the result I am, so I came here to get a second opinion.

Basically it operates under the following premise:

1. Mindrape allows you to erase or add any memories of the target.
2. Memories are a record of your perceptions.
3. If you alter the record, you alter the perception.

To use that in an example:
Your Eyes see a creature, it sends the information to memory part of your brain to see if it knows what it is. Your Memory tells you that a creature matching what you see is known as a Dog. Your memory also prepares any other useful information it has about Dogs (should the need arise), your memory tells him that dogs are dangerous. So you act accordingly. The guy standing next to you sees a Dog.

Evil Wizard comes along and mindrapes the individual. As part of his nefarious scheme he alters part of your memories.
So the encounter just outlined goes thusly:
Your Eyes see a creature, it sends the information to memory part of your brain to see if it knows what it is. Your Memory tells you that a creature matching what you see is known as a Cat. Your memory also prepares any other useful information it has about Cats (should the need arise), your memory tells him that Cats are safe and playful. So you act accordingly. The guy standing next to you sees a Dog.

Seem reasonable so far?

To add to the complication using a specfic incident in the game:
The group have been dealing with this individual for some time. During the opening encounter he mindrapes the entire group and alters there memories about various things.
One of the things he altered is how they percieve him in his true form (he polymorphs alot). After a few encounters the group get suspicious about this individual and what to know who they are really dealing with. To that end they purchase a scroll of True Seeing, a member of the group casts it and walks into the room to see what he really looks like. Instead of seeing his True form, they see the pre-altered memory of him and he registers as something odd, but safe.

Now the issue has arisen whereby one member of the group has an item of Mindblank. He thinks that this should protect him from the effects of the Mindrape.
I agree with him that it will protect against further mindrapes, but it does nothing to stop ones that happened prior to the mindblanking. Hence any altered memories/perceptions will remain altered. i.e. he will contine to see the Baddie as the memory altered version, not what he really is.

I realise that this interpretation does push the limit of what mindrape can do, but can Mindrape do this by RAW, by RAI?

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm not sure that you can use mindrape to set up future illusions, as it were.

You can change their memories of who he is, of how he looked, but it doesn't affect what they see afterwards?

They might then look at him, and remember what they see as being 'A Cat, cat's are safe'. But if they described it to someone then they would describe the creepy old wizard just fine.

[Jack Zander]

I realise that this interpretation does push the limit of what mindrape can do, but can Mindrape do this by RAW, by RAI?

No, mindrape can't do any of that by RAW. At best, you've altered the person's memory of seeing a dog, and when the extent of that memory change ends, the cat turns into a dog. The person just remembers the creature being a cat before, weird...

True seeing should have shown the party his true form. They just might find it weird that his true form is different now. It shouldn't keep affecting them like that.

[AmberVael]

Now the issue has arisen whereby one member of the group has an item of Mindblank. He thinks that this should protect him from the effects of the Mindrape.
I agree with him that it will protect against further mindrapes, but it does nothing to stop ones that happened prior to the mindblanking. Hence any altered memories/perceptions will remain altered. i.e. he will contine to see the Baddie as the memory altered version, not what he really is.

I realise that this interpretation does push the limit of what mindrape can do, but can Mindrape do this by RAW, by RAI?

My mind keeps blanking out (har har) on the first part of the discussion, but I definitely can speak about this part.

Mind Blank prevents mind affecting spells from affecting you. There is no clause that it does not prevent ongoing spells. The question, then, is if Mindrape is an ongoing spell, or if it is an ongoing effect caused by a spell.

The answer is simple- no, Mindrape isn't an ongoing spell. The duration is instantaneous, and thus, once the spell is cast, all effects it has caused are mundane and non-magical in nature, inherent to you, not a device or spell. Mind Blank cannot protect you from the effects of a previous Mindrape, though, as you mentioned, it can protect you from a Mindrape cast on you while the Mind Blank is up.

[Kylarra]

They'd definitely be able to describe him. They might think at first that the figure they see is not on their "shoot on sight" list, but it's not like you don't update your memories constantly, so while they may think he's safe initially, the fact that he's done blahblahblah already and been revealed to be the true culprit will definitely swing them towards being suspicious.

Think of it like those detective mysteries where the culprit turns out to be Kindly Old <name> or whatever, sure you didn't suspect him at first, so when he turns up in suspicious areas, you're willing to grant a bit more leeway in terms of excuses, but as evidence accumulates, you become more willing to believe that he is guilty.

[Snake-Aes]

Memories are a record of past perceptions. You can't mind rape the person into emulating illusions. He will see whatever he would normally see before the spell.


You can rape out their memory of the big bad? Sure. When they see the big bad, they see whatever the big bad is. They just won't recognize him.

[Parra]

I get that it only alters existing memories, but this works under the premise that how you interpret your perceptions based on previous experiance (i.e. your memories)

If the previous example was bad think of it this way then. Mental conditioning found in a variety of film and TV (Bourne Identity,ST:TNG, BSG & pleathora of other spy films). The sleeper agent is tourtured/conditioned/brainwashed/fancy-scienced(/mindraped?) so that when certain conditions are met they perform a certain action, maybe years after they were brainwshed. In some cases they have no recollection of what they did even right after just doing it.

Can Mindrape potentially perform similar mental conditioning?
Hence giving you; Condition -> See a Cat -> Response -> Act like you saw a dog.

edit:

They might think at first that the figure they see is not on their "shoot on sight" list, but it's not like you don't update your memories constantly,

I agree. Which is why after some encounters, when he knows his cover has been blown, he doses them again with more mindraping.

[Kylarra]

Conditioned triggers do not seem to fall under the purview of the mindrape spell.

[Parra]

Conditioned triggers do not seem to fall under the purview of the mindrape spell.

yes but would they fall under the area of altered memories. i.e. your memory has been altered as if you had spent 10 years in a brainwashing program

[Kylarra]

yes but would they fall under the area of altered memories. i.e. your memory has been altered as if you had spent 10 years in a brainwashing program

As a level 9 spell, potentially, assuming that the caster had intimate knowledge of that sort of thing. However, if my DM did that to my character randomly, I would walk.

[JeenLeen]

Mindrape cannot make you perceive the creature differently than you do, but it would work to alter all memories about his prior true form. If I was always told that a TV is called a scrying mirror, then if I saw a TV and tried to describe it, I would call it a scrying mirror. Folk would be confused, but in a prolonged discussion they would realize I mean TV.

As for the conditioning, that could work. I just reread Mindrape, and I can two rulings. You could certainty add years of memories of them being conditioned, which I imagine would be the same as having the conditioning and cause them to enter into a set of rote actions upon seeing the true form.

I think I did read some spell that sets up post-hypnotic suggestions (Modify Memory; the psionic version thereof?). Does anyone remember that? Perhaps if they implant a suggestion, then Mindrape away memory of the spell being cast? Mindrape could also add a belief that acting out rote like that is normal, so that the affected does not suspect he is being manipulated.

[Parra]

As a level 9 spell, potentially, assuming that the caster had intimate knowledge of that sort of thing. However, if my DM did that to my character randomly, I would walk.

So doable, if pushing the bounderies a little?

As an aside, it isnt being done randomly but as part of an overarching plot. , learning plenty along the way.
The mindraping in this case has only been used as an extra layer of defence in keeping his identity hidden (beyond the usual mundane disguise, simulicrums, projected images, polymorphs etc)
The group are already suspcious of the guy and are approaching a point where they can potentially learn they have been screwed with and work towards fixing what he did to them

[Tyger]

yes but would they fall under the area of altered memories. i.e. your memory has been altered as if you had spent 10 years in a brainwashing program

The short answer to your question is no, there is no RAW or RAI (as I understand it) means to use Mindrape to implant the sort of conditional triggers you have described herein.

Now, that's not to say you couldn't arrange an action that is similar. The loyal bodyguard of the king comes under your influence and you Mindrape them to remember that the king, years ago, horribly tortured and then murdered the guard's family in front of him. He has held off on his revenge because a spell held him from seeking his vengeance, but that spell has just been lifted. He knows that it is important to not let the king know the spell has just failed.... you see where this is going?

But no, you can not change someone's current physical perceptions. You can't have someone think they are seeing one thing when they are seeing another. When that True Seeing spell goes off, they will see your BBEG looking just as he really does. What they remember about what they saw before is the ripe fodder of Mindrape, not what they are seeing now.

So doable, if pushing the bounderies a little?

If by "a little" you mean "interjecting something that appears no where in the description of the spell" then yes. Otherwise, no. If my DM tried to use this on our party without the full cooperation of the party beforehand, I'd be upset... its DM fiat, plain and simple.

[Parra]

Mindrape cannot make you perceive the creature differently than you do, but it would work to alter all memories about his prior true form. If I was always told that a TV is called a scrying mirror, then if I saw a TV and tried to describe it, I would call it a scrying mirror. Folk would be confused, but in a prolonged discussion they would realize I mean TV.

However, if the only people you ever discuss TV with also called it a scrying mirror, there would be no confusion.

in this case they onyl ever talk about the guy amoungst themselves, they guy is polymporphed to begin with. Only with True Seeing did they see what he looked like, Mindrape Brainwashing told them to blank it out

[Tyger]

in this case they onyl ever talk about the guy amoungst themselves, they guy is polymporphed to begin with. Only with True Seeing did they see what he looked like, Mindrape Brainwashing told them to blank it out

Except the spell doesn't allow this. If it did, it would say so. You can

"Erase or add memories", "alter emotions, opinions and even alignment"... no where in there does it say that you can change what they are going to see after the spell goes off. You can make them all feel good about what they see, even regard what they see as their long lost brother/sister/demonic lover/abberant master/whatever, but they are still going to see it for what it is.

[Parra]

Now, that's not to say you couldn't arrange an action that is similar. The loyal bodyguard of the king comes under your influence and you Mindrape them to remember that the king, years ago, horribly tortured and then murdered the guard's family in front of him. He has held off on his revenge because a spell held him from seeking his vengeance, but that spell has just been lifted. He knows that it is important to not let the king know the spell has just failed.... you see where this is going?

I do and I like it.

yes ultimatly, if it has to this comes down to DM fiat, I would however much much prefer to use something within the rules

[Kylarra]

Bar plot-armor, I'm not seeing why a wizard would use X 9th level castings in order to provide yet another layer of defense for his true form from <adventuring party>, since if he had them in a situation where he could reliably do this, he should've just killed them all.

[Parra]

Except the spell doesn't allow this. If it did, it would say so. You can

"Erase or add memories", "alter emotions, opinions and even alignment"... no where in there does it say that you can change what they are going to see after the spell goes off. You can make them all feel good about what they see, even regard what they see as their long lost brother/sister/demonic lover/abberant master/whatever, but they are still going to see it for what it is.

to add what I said in an earlier post, mindraping is topped up periodically

[Parra]

Bar plot-armor, I'm not seeing why a wizard would use X 9th level castings in order to provide yet another layer of defense for his true form from <adventuring party>, since if he had them in a situation where he could reliably do this, he should've just killed them all.

unless he wants them alive for something?

[Kylarra]

to add what I said in an earlier post, mindraping is topped up periodically

...

well then to add to my previous post, this seems like an even more absurd use of fiat.

unless he wants them alive for something?

Like I said, plot armor, and there are more reliable ways of getting people to do things for you than continually blowing 9th level spells.

[Parra]

such as?

given that they have yet to actually work it all out, its still prefectly changeable

[Kylarra]

such as?

given that they have yet to actually work it all out, its still prefectly changeable

Paying them is a pretty good one. Also Geas.

[Parra]

Paying them is a pretty good one. Also Geas.

They were paid. alot.
Geas does weak damage and is easily removed

This is not an attempt to control there actions, the money does that, this is simply to stop them learning who he is.

[FMArthur]

Hey... can Mindrape give people experience? Make a 1st level Wizard's mind into that of a 20th level Wizard? Knowledge and experiences is all that really separates the two, which seems to be within Mindrape's scope.

[Goodlad]

Hey... can Mindrape give people experience? Make a 1st level Wizard's mind into that of a 20th level Wizard? Knowledge and experiences is all that really separates the two, which seems to be within Mindrape's scope.

I love you! lol

Dm plays with mindrape, players should get to aswell.
Im a player in parra's game btw.

[Parra]

Hey... can Mindrape give people experience? Make a 1st level Wizard's mind into that of a 20th level Wizard? Knowledge and experiences is all that really separates the two, which seems to be within Mindrape's scope.

What is experiance (not the dnd version aka xp)?

It's the culmination of all the knowledge you have so far gathered in your life, also known as memories.

If you alter those memories, you alter the knowledge, you alter the knowledge then you alter the experiance

Can mindrape remove from a wizard the memory of learning to cast Fireball?

Can it implant the memory of the knowledge to cast Lightning Bolt?

Im not even going to pretend that Mindrape is anything but a mine field of problems if used and abused to that extent. But like Pun-Pun, you just dont use it like that

[jseah]

The way I see it, OP's argument is that Mindrape can give you false preconceived notions about things.

Like the example of a cat. We do things to cats as we remember them and how they act.

The caster could set it up such that the subjects of mindrape think of him (and specifically him) as someone to be trusted from prior experience. Or as someone unrelated and harmless.
It is arguable as to whether it could deflect suspicion from a true seeing investigation. After all, no matter how harmless/unrelated you seem to them, anyone near a place of suspicion is instantly suspected.

Technically, Mindrape could alter their personality to prevent that from happening. Hence the accusations of implanting suggestions. It's not an implanted suggestion if their personalities stop being logical. Or essentially become robots following some kind of flexible algorithm to not act like robots. (esp. since humans deal with concepts and objects easily)


That said, it's very high on the mind screw index and it is unclear as to what the inherent limits of human psychology is. How far can you reprogram someone with mindrape before you run into various blocks in people? 2+2=5? Maybe not even that...
After all, people have self-consistency tests, we continually sanity check our observations/thinking/logic. Can you remove that? Is that something fundamental to [humanoid] type or is that "personality"?

[Tyndmyr]

to add what I said in an earlier post, mindraping is topped up periodically

This is probably the most ludicrous use for level 9 spells ever. Yes, more ludicrous than Genesis'd planes with the fast flowing time trait.

[jseah]

Addition:
More than "continually" I would think.

I do it almost instinctively, and many a movie has been ruined by the little voice in my head that keeps saying "X is illogical".

I find it hard to believe that something like that could be reprogrammed. Would be akin to removing the alignment system from a person (not actual TN, but having zero conception of morality)

[Zaydos]

You could probably replace all of someones memories of cats with dogs... okay small dogs. So they'd think a dog was called a cat and acted like a cat. They'd still see a dog. If they described how it appeared to somebody else they'd describe a dog. Now they might call it a cat and treat it like one, but they wouldn't perceive a cat, they'd just be relying on false information.

So if they used true seeing on the BBEG and he looked like... say a walrus man. They'd see a walrus man and be able to describe a walrus man. Now he could have mind raped them into remembering that walrus men are dragons look like, but they'd still see a walrus man. He could not use mindrape to preemptively make it so that if they used True Seeing on him they'd see a dragon. They'd see a walrus man they just might call it a dragon, and think it could breathe fire.