Dungeons and Dragons with no class(es)

[DeadManSleeping]

I started playing RPGs at a very young and impressionable age, thanks to my parents' acquaintance with them from their own youth. My very first RPG was Dungeons and Dragons 3.0, and I loved it greatly. It was many years before I even looked at any other tabletop RPG, but it happened eventually. After that, things sort of cascaded, and I now play many, many RPGs.

But not D&D.

Being introduced to other RPGs led me to the fun of freeform character building. These "classes" that were once wonderful and fine are now too restrictive for me to have fun with. It's not a change in the game that's done this (I have no problem with 4e as opposed to 3.x), but a change in me. I haven't played a d20 game for a while now, and I can't get the motivation to play one anymore.

I have a problem with this. You see, I happen to LOVE the medieval fantasy setting. Heck, the Greyhawk-rip standard setting of 3.x was my very first fantasy setting ever. It defined roleplaying games for me. How am I supposed to let it go? Okay, so I have somewhat different standards for what I want in a campaign world these days, but I still long for a world of paladins and wizards, of druids and bards, and other mismatched anachronisms of sword and sorcery pitted against dragons and demons, otyughs and owlbears, and other such foes. It holds a special place in my heart.

And so, fellow GitPers, I wish to resolve this conflict that threatens to rend apart my very soul. I want a system that is built especially for the medieval miscellany that is Dungeons and Dragons, but isn't founded on such a structured class system (vaguely structured systems like those in, for example, White Wolf games, would be maybe acceptable). So the goal of the thread is to do one of the following:

1. Find a currently existing system that can be easily adapted to a D&D-like setting

2. Make a D&D system to be much more freeform

3. Make a new system (yeah, overly adventurous, I know, but it could happen!)

I understand that many of you may support class-based systems, and I understand that, but please do not post in this thread defending class-based systems. This thread isn't an attack on them, not at all. Discussions of class-based systems should only be in this thread if it is about how to take ideas from them or change them to be non-class-based.

TL;DR Version

I like a lot of stuff about D&D, but not the part of the system where your character has a class. I want to play D&D without that part of the system, but still have a viable system. See the numbered points above for how I'm considering doing this.

[Jallorn]

GURPS is the only classless system I know that would work with a DnD setting, although I like the D20 classes as slightly more freeform types of classes.

[Ravens_cry]

This is basically how Mutants and Masterminds works.

[kyoryu]

I'd probably suggest GURPS as well. It will be a slightly grittier, lower-powered game than typical D&D play, but is still pretty workable in most D&D settings.

[Kaje]

Yup, Mutants & Masterminds. It's d20, but all point-buy, no classes or levels. And there's even a sourcebook called Warriors & Warlocks for playing D&D-style fantasy.

[J.Gellert]

Being introduced to other RPGs led me to the fun of freeform character building. These "classes" that were once wonderful and fine are now too restrictive for me to have fun with.

This. I know exactly what you mean.

I've switched over to Mutants & Masterminds and never looked back since. It takes some getting used to, but it's a great system.

You may cringe at the superhero theme, but it's a generic system (it can't do everything - but it can do anything that would look good in an action film). I have ran fantastic "D&D" games with Mutants and Masterminds, but even if you can't take my word, then its Warriors & Warlocks supplement is proof of how it can do it D&D (though in no way a mandatory purchase, core book's all you really need).

[Aldizog]

Idea for 2:
The only class is "PC."
Levels bestow no HD, no BAB, no skills. Just four feats (maybe a bonus four at first to cover for armor proficiencies, familiars, etc.).
"Combat 1" is a feat. It requires PC level 1 and gives BAB +1. Combat 2 requires PC level 2 and gives BAB +2, and so on.
"Toughness 1" is a feat. It requires PC level 1 and gives 1d10+Con HP.
"Casting 1" is a feat. It requires PC level 1 and gives access to first-level spells from one list, but no spells per day. (Split spells into 20 levels for this.) It may be taken multiple times (for different spell lists).
"Spells 1" is a feat. It requires PC level 1 and gives one first-level spell slot per day. It may be taken multiple times.
"Skills" gives 6+Int skill points. All skills are class skills, and the cap remains at level +3.
Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude stack, with base saves capped at something you decide (level/2+2, maybe).

All class features become feats. Turning 1 grants, perhaps, turning as cleric of your level up to 4. Turning 2 grants turning as cleric of your level up to 8, and so on. Some may require certain skills or other feats.

So: basic fighter takes Combat, Toughness, and a save feat every level, Skills every other level, and combat feats for the rest.
Cleric or gish over 4 levels takes 3 Toughness, 3 Combat, 3 Casting, 3 Spells, 3 save feats, and 1 other.
Basic wizard over 4 levels takes 2 Toughness, 1 Combat, 2 saves, 4 Casting, 4 Spells, 2 Skills, and 1 other.

Or adjust to 5 feats per level if you wish. Tinker with the Casting/Spells progression.

[DeadManSleeping]

Mutants & Masterminds, huh? Well, I do have it (fun fact: I love superheros), though I couldn't see it as D&D. But given that everyone here seems to agree that it works for this, I'll certainly give it a go. Time for me to find Warriors & Warlocks.

Now if only I could get a game of it started...but I don't have time to DM anything else. Sad.

Any further suggestions are still welcome, of course. Not everyone likes the d20 system, classes or no.

[Mando Knight]

D&D is a class-based system. Even more than Vancian spellcasting, classes are a sacred cow of the game. You can try other systems with fantasy settings (does Exalted have classes, beyond your Exalt and possibly Caste? It's a god-level game anyway, though). BESM and GURPS are games that portend to do almost anything, with the former being specifically anything that's close to an anime or manga style story (which, honestly, is in fact quite broad. It's an art style, not a genre.).

[Acero]

Give every character a feat every level.

Make spell progression a feat. (i.e., the feat master 1st level spells)
Spell progression cannot be taken two times in a row.
No penalties to learning any skill.

Play normal D&D from, there

[Kelb_Panthera]

Have you considered the generic classes from Unearthed Arcana?

[Kylarra]

D&D is a class-based system. Even more than Vancian spellcasting, classes are a sacred cow of the game. You can try other systems with fantasy settings (does Exalted have classes, beyond your Exalt and possibly Caste? It's a god-level game anyway, though). BESM and GURPS are games that portend to do almost anything, with the former being specifically anything that's close to an anime or manga style story (which, honestly, is in fact quite broad. It's an art style, not a genre.).

Yeah Exalted is essentially classless, though there are a few distinctions between castes and definitely between exalts.

[DeadManSleeping]

D&D is a class-based system. Even more than Vancian spellcasting, classes are a sacred cow of the game. You can try other systems with fantasy settings (does Exalted have classes, beyond your Exalt and possibly Caste? It's a god-level game anyway, though). BESM and GURPS are games that portend to do almost anything, with the former being specifically anything that's close to an anime or manga style story (which, honestly, is in fact quite broad. It's an art style, not a genre.).

I appreciate the suggestion, but you realize the point of the thread is a D&D setting without classes, right? Class is necessary in the traditional D&D system, but not in the setting. If it were part of the setting, the D&D movies would have been slightly less atrocious. I've played Exalted and BESM (I play Exalted a ton, actually, and DMed a short BESM campaign last summer). They are exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Exalted is a system based entirely in its setting, a setting that I'm not talking about here. I don't want Exalts. I want wizards and druids and bards and paladins and stuff. Just not the classes that force them to be called that.

And yes, I hate Vancian spellcasting. So, so very much. I think getting rid of it was 4e's greatest triumph.

BESM is too, well...too BESM-y, though my experience with it is less comprehensive (I DM-ed a high-powered game for a couple months, and that's about it).

GURPS is just not for me. I never liked it.

As far as the 'class' system of Exalted, that's what I meant by 'vaguely structured systems'. You've got structure, but it's much less harsh than a class system. I enjoy it very much, and I'd be willing to do something like it for D&D. However, the Exalted system specifically is not good for dungeon crawlin' fools. Partially because the rogue would also be the best frontline combat guy, which is just not right.

The generic classes are not what I'm looking for. I never liked them even before I turned against class systems. Too much definition for freedom, not enough definition for focus. Blech.

I may be rejecting these suggestions for my own use, but they might work out for other people. Feel free to try them if they sound fun for you. My responses here are purely subjective, and are not intended to be taken as anything but.

[holywhippet]

You might want to look at Ars Magica instead. From what I can recall (haven't played it in years) you don't so much build a class as define a character by their skills, stats, flaws and virtues.

[Tyrrell]

You might want to look at Ars Magica instead. From what I can recall (haven't played it in years) you don't so much build a class as define a character by their skills, stats, flaws and virtues.

Ars Magica 5 is easily the best game ever written by humans, but it isn't going to scratch his "D&D but no classes" itch.

I'd suggest Hero system (fantasy Hero) if you can handle the crunch. It's very wide open so you have tremendous freedom to design precisely the character that you want (of course so is the previously mentioned mutants and masterminds).

I've read burning wheel and I know that many others are fond of it. From a read through I see great deal that I like but I don't completely trust that they've got the math right, with magic burner and monster burner it should be pretty compete. It's life path rather than "allocate points wherever you wish" so characters come with history baked in, fewer options, and fewer balance issues than something as wide open as Hero or mutants and masterminds. It's real strength is tying together the game mechanics the character's personality traits and the advancement system so that they all work together. I loved hoe this was done in Riddle of steel and Burning wheel sees to be in the same league here.

I've heard people rave about savage worlds I think that they've got a fantasy setting.

[EdroGrimshell]

While all these are nice, i find that dreamscarred press created exactly what your looking for, Complete Control, Complete Gear, and Complete Races

[Yora]

If classes are generic enough, they are not a problem. Levels are.

In d20 almost everything is "crunch over fluff". You gather XP, get new feats and skills, and hopefully at some time reach a point at which you have all the neccessary requirements to do certain things. Every 1st level rogue can try to sweep away an enemies feet with a quarterstaff, but that's most probably the same as not doing anything that round and instead giving the enemies a free attempt to kill you faster.
What I enjoy about many classless system is, that they are also level-less. You make a new character and describe it as "a teenage boy in dirty clothes and with a long plain oak staff". And then you can start playing right away by making it look cool. The same character will be much more effective doing the same things much later in the game, but you don't have to wait for a couple of months and several dozens of game sessions until you can start doing it.
Want to shot lightning from your fingers in D&D?Get 25.000 XP first. In many classless systems, you just say "my mage can shot lightning" and it deals the same flimsy damage as a dagger would.

I played 3rd Edition for so long, but right now I don't think I want to ever see it again. It's really a game about character abilities and gathering XP. What things can happen and which things can't is completely depending on the characters amount of XP.

[Starsinger]

Want to shot lightning from your fingers in D&D?Get 25.000 XP first. In many classless systems, you just say "my mage can shot lightning" and it deals the same flimsy damage as a dagger would.

I like this. It's part of my love for reserve feats. I don't play a spellcaster to hit things with a stick. Even if I'm doing 1d6 damage with a lightning blast, I want to "cast spells" at level one.

[Da Beast]

Mutants & Masterminds, huh? Well, I do have it (fun fact: I love superheros), though I couldn't see it as D&D. But given that everyone here seems to agree that it works for this, I'll certainly give it a go. Time for me to find Warriors & Warlocks.

Warriors and Warlocks suggests lower power level (between 4 and 8) with more power points per level (20). This allows for more human characters than the standard MnM super heroes who are still exceptional individuals with a diverse skill set.

[Yora]

I like this. It's part of my love for reserve feats. I don't play a spellcaster to hit things with a stick. Even if I'm doing 1d6 damage with a lightning blast, I want to "cast spells" at level one.

I meant it more as an example. Most things can be worked around in some way, but at some point you have to start wondering if playing a different system wouldn't be easier.

[wayfare]

How about taking something like d20 modern and building from there. I love modern, mostly because you have to earn everything -- you can be a druid, but you sure as hell wont start out there. I know its still pretty structured, but at lower levels the structure exists only in the broadest sense. If you want your character to become more specific you can build him/her in that way, but it is an investment.

[DeadManSleeping]

Yora has a point: levels are also a bit of an issue. But not nearly as much as classes.

Warlocks & Warriors ended up not being quite what I was looking for, so I'll try looking into Ars Magica (my brother already has it) and these "Complete" supplements that EdroGrimshell mentioned. We'll see how it goes.

[DeadManSleeping]

Alright, you classless ladies and gentlemen, here's an update on the dead man's quest!

I managed to acquire Complete Control by Dreamscarred Press. At first glance, it seemed like they were doing exactly what I was hoping for: same D&D, but with freeform creation and progression. For a bit, it was going on pretty well. It was rather easy to customize hit points, BAB, and saves, and seemed to be somewhere around balanced with the rest of D&D. Even skills managed to be relatively good, and the system for skill progression was sensible. Then came feats. That's when things started to...unravel.

What kicked it off was weapon proficiencies. The way the book says to handle them is completely unreadable. It's partially because of bad editing (something that was apparent earlier, but didn't actually make it less good), but partially because the system was completely incoherent and seemingly self-contradictory. I couldn't explain it if I tried. Still, I decided to forge ahead. Next came constant class abilities, stuff like the ranger's trackless step or the rogue's uncanny dodge. It was a bit of a bumpy ride, but they handled it as well as anyone could. Then came level-dependent abilities. The idea was that you invested in each ability's level, but...it got complicated. Somehow it seemed to work out that you could end up with an effective level of 10 or 20 for the same XP with no other variance. Things got even weirder when it came to use-dependent abilities (holy smite, barbarian rage).

Then came psionic powers. No, not spells, those came later. Yeah, I should mention these guys mostly focus on their own work, much of which involves psionics and channeling. I don't blame them for it (they gotta make money), but it's tough to deal with. Honestly, my head was swimming by the time I got to the point of spell slots, so I can't really say if they were handled well or not.

I will look at Ars Magica next. If that falls through, I may have to do a lot more work, and I might use this thread to document my journey and ask for help. I hope people keep up with it.

[The Glyphstone]

Idea for 2:
The only class is "PC."
Levels bestow no HD, no BAB, no skills. Just four feats (maybe a bonus four at first to cover for armor proficiencies, familiars, etc.).
"Combat 1" is a feat. It requires PC level 1 and gives BAB +1. Combat 2 requires PC level 2 and gives BAB +2, and so on.
"Toughness 1" is a feat. It requires PC level 1 and gives 1d10+Con HP.
"Casting 1" is a feat. It requires PC level 1 and gives access to first-level spells from one list, but no spells per day. (Split spells into 20 levels for this.) It may be taken multiple times (for different spell lists).
"Spells 1" is a feat. It requires PC level 1 and gives one first-level spell slot per day. It may be taken multiple times.
"Skills" gives 6+Int skill points. All skills are class skills, and the cap remains at level +3.
Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude stack, with base saves capped at something you decide (level/2+2, maybe).

All class features become feats. Turning 1 grants, perhaps, turning as cleric of your level up to 4. Turning 2 grants turning as cleric of your level up to 8, and so on. Some may require certain skills or other feats.

So: basic fighter takes Combat, Toughness, and a save feat every level, Skills every other level, and combat feats for the rest.
Cleric or gish over 4 levels takes 3 Toughness, 3 Combat, 3 Casting, 3 Spells, 3 save feats, and 1 other.
Basic wizard over 4 levels takes 2 Toughness, 1 Combat, 2 saves, 4 Casting, 4 Spells, 2 Skills, and 1 other.

Or adjust to 5 feats per level if you wish. Tinker with the Casting/Spells progression.

What happens if a 1st-level character takes Combat, Toughness, Casting, and Skills?

[Jergmo]

Really? Because it seems like there's a class for everything these days. Regardless, there's the Generic Classes variant, which allows even more customization.

[DeadManSleeping]

Really? Because it seems like there's a class for everything these days. Regardless, there's the Generic Classes variant, which allows even more customization.

Scroll up, brother. That's been suggested and rejected.

The point is complete customizeability. Classes, no matter how specific or specialized, are still a problem just because of their nature as classes. The idea is freeform character development with a D&D campaign world, which no current freeform games are suited to.

[EdroGrimshell]

Would you like to try a play-by-post using Complete Control and its kin? I could definitely play in it, and i can explain the problems you had a bit, i have most of their materials so its no problem, i even have a link to their SRD for all their psionic stuff.

[DeadManSleeping]

I'd be willing to give it a shot, but I don't have the resources to GM anything else right now, much less experimenting with a system I'm having a hard time understanding. I'd play, but I can't ask anyone to GM this in good conscience. It's so brain-hurt.

[Lord Vampyre]

Alright, I know its been said before, but I'll say it again GURPS.

GURPS has done extensive work to produce a generic classless system. Fortunately, for those of us who love D&D but have grown tired of different aspects of the game they have released their Dungeon Fantasy series of PDF books. These books provide templates that make it possible to play a Holy Warrior (aka Paladin), Scout (aka Ranger), Wizard, Rogue, ect.

Here is the link for the original recruitment thread for the current Dungeon Fantasy game that I'm running. Scroll down to where Yuki posted a few of the templates and you will get a feel for the layout of the system.

[EdroGrimshell]

I'd be willing to give it a shot, but I don't have the resources to GM anything else right now, much less experimenting with a system I'm having a hard time understanding. I'd play, but I can't ask anyone to GM this in good conscience. It's so brain-hurt.

I posted an interest check in the recruitment thread. We'll see if we can find a DM and players.