Shadow Conjuration / Evocation

[zephiros]

I was looking at both of these (in their greater forms) for my level 15 sorcerer, and was wondering what people think of them, whether they're worthwhile or if there's better choices.

[BladeofOblivion]

TAKE IT. SERIOUSLY. Shadow evocation is great for getting out whatever the heck you can think of. Contingency is a great one just for starters. Plus, If your DM gets a new shiny SpC or something you can start using it out of the box.

[zephiros]

Is Conjuration also worthwhile?

[Eldan]

YES.

Yes, yes, yes. More so than Evocation, I'd say, since Conjuration is the better school. You get a load of blast spells if you have non-core books. You can summon a wide variety of creatures as well, which is great, and there are also things like walls.

[BobVosh]

YES.

Yes, yes, yes. More so than Evocation, I'd say, since Conjuration is the better school. You get a load of blast spells if you have non-core books. You can summon a wide variety of creatures as well, which is great, and there are also things like walls.

I would actually say no, because it is a lot more limited. Evocation still is open in all of its "glory," but you are extremely limited to what you can conjure. That said, both are great. Out of curiosity has anyone ever mapped what spells you can GSC?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

/sigh

Shadow Conjuration/Evocation are okay, but has some very serious downsides

Sure, it's most of the lower level spells in a college, in a single spell. Pretty powerful, right? Well, there's some downsides.

1) Shadow Conjuration has one major downside: SR: Yes. Most of the reason you pick Conjuration is to avoid SR. This negates that advantage.

2) It adds a Will save in addition to everything else. Sure, you can summon minions with this.. only any time they attack anything, or anything tries to attack them, that something gets a Will save to poof the critter and waste your spell and time.

3) The spells will be, by necessity, a lower-level spell than the spell you are casting (barring gouda-limburger based gnome builds). In other words, you're spending a higher level spells slot to produce a lower level effect which has a Will save stacked on top of any other save it might have.

Having said that, some of them can be useful.

Greater Shadow Evocation is the best one on the block, because it is focus-free Contingency, component-free Forcecage (trades 1500 gp for a Will save), and other nifty effects. But mostly for those two packed into one spell.

You have to remember to use it thusly:

1) Use it for utility. Trying to make a Shadow Evocation Fireball is a recipie for disaster. Likewise, a Shadow Conjuration Lesser x Orb is also a poor choice. Not because of the 'damage suxx n00bz', but because you effectively have two saves, either of which will save the opponent.

2) Don't use it against opponents directly. Summon a monster with Shadow Conjuration, but don't send it into combat, where it can get Disbelieved. Send it down a suspicious hallways which seem likely to be trapped.

3) Use it creatively. It's got a lot of versatility, even though you pay for it through the nose. Don't get stuck by limiting yourself to the usual 'I've got every Save or Screwed or Blastomancy spell in the GAME!!!' shtick. You've got a lot of fun stuff hidden in that spell. Wind Wall, for example, or Wall of Ice, Grease, Daylight, Shatter (unattended objects don't get a save)... plenty of fun stuff to use.

4) Remember, it IS a higher level spell, with a corrosponding higher DC on the save. If you know their Will save is dump anyways, you can use it as a gimp Heighten Spell.

In brief, yes they are fun for a Sorcerer, but take a bit of skill to use them properly

[Runestar]

One benefit is the shadow spells have a casting time of 1 standard action, regardless of the actual casting time of the replicated spell.

For example, phantom steed needs 10 minutes to cast, making it impractical for use in an aerial pursuit, but a spellcaster can just bring in 4 of them for the entire party in 4 rounds.

[thubby]

bad for a wizard, who can basically do whatever they want. good for a sorcerer, who gets so few spells. just be sure to make your others spells in that level your killers.

[Kelb_Panthera]

2) It adds a Will save in addition to everything else. Sure, you can summon minions with this.. only any time they attack anything, or anything tries to attack them, that something gets a Will save to poof the critter and waste your spell and time.

This isn't quite true. The disbelieved creature gets gimped pretty bad, becoming only 60% real (3/5 damage, 3/5 HP etc) but they're still there, and can still fight.

[BobVosh]

bad for a wizard, who can basically do whatever they want. good for a sorcerer, who gets so few spells. just be sure to make your others spells in that level your killers.

Great for a wizard who bans evocation. So, great for any wizard. As for the wizard who bans conjuration: BAD! /slap Now go fix your character so you can teleport.

[thubby]

Great for a wizard who bans evocation. So, great for any wizard. As for the wizard who bans conjuration: BAD! /slap Now go fix your character so you can teleport.

that of course assumes that any sane wizard specializes.

[Eldan]

I would actually say no, because it is a lot more limited. Evocation still is open in all of its "glory," but you are extremely limited to what you can conjure. That said, both are great. Out of curiosity has anyone ever mapped what spells you can GSC?

I made one for a Warlock of mine who took the feat to cast "Shades" at will.

Spoiler

Show

0-
Caltrops (SpC)

1-
Buzzing Bee (SpC)
Corrosive Grasp (SpC)
Deep Breath (SpC)
Grease
Hail of Stone (SpC)
Lesser Orb of [Element] (SpC)
Mount
Obscuring Mist (SpC)
Resinous Tar (CM)
Summon Monster I
Summon Undead I (SpC)
Unseen Servant
Wall of Smoke (SpC)

2-
Ashstar (Sandstorm)
Create Magic Tattoo (SpC)
Fog Cloud
Glitterdust
Ice Knife (SpC)
Incendiary Slime (CM)
Inky Cloud (SpC)
Malevolent Miasma (SpC)
Melf's Acid Arrow
Obscuring Snow (FB)
Summon Monster II
Summon swarm
Summon Undead II (SpC)
Web
Zone of Glacial Cold (FB)

3-
Acid Breath (SpC)
Arctic Haze (FB)
Bands of steel (SpC)
Caustic Smoke (CM)
Contagious Fog (SpC)
Corpse Candle (SpC)
Haboob (Sandstorm)
Icelance (SpC)
Nauseating Breath (SpC)
Phantom Steed (SpC)
Regal Procession (SpC)
Servant Horde (SpC)
Sleet Storm
Stinking Cloud
Summon Monster III
Summon Undead III (SpC)
Vipergout (SpC)

4-
Blast of Sand (Sandstorm)
Bloodstar (SpC)
Caustic Mire (CM)
Column of Ice (SpC)
Ethereal Mount (SpC)
Evard's Black Tentacles
Ice Ship (FB)
Ice Web (FB)
Leomund's Secure Shelter
Leomund's Spacious Carriage (Cityscape)
Minor Creation)
Orb of [Element] (SpC)
Solid Fog
Summon Monster IV
Summon Pest Swarm (Cityscape)
Summon Undead IV (SpC)
Wall of Sand (SpC)
Wall of Salt (Sandstorm)
Wall of Water (SpC)

5-
Acid Sheath (SpC)
Blackwater Tentacle (Stormwrack)
Cloudkill
Fire and Brimstone (CM)
Hidden Lodge (SpC)
Leomund's Secret Chest
Major Creation (SpC)
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Phantasmal Thief (SpC)
Summon Monster V
Summon Undead V (SpC)
Vitriolic Sphere
Wall of Magma (Frostburn)
Wall of Stone

6-
Acid Fog
Acid Storm (SpC)
Freezing Fog (SpC)
Mordenkainen's Trusted Bloodhound (CM)
Mudslide (Stormwrack)
Steal Summoning (CM)
Summon Monster VI
Tunnel Swallow (SpC)
Wall of Gears (SpC)
Wall of Iron

7-
Choking Cobwebs (CM)
Drawmij's Instant summons
Mordenkainen's Magnificient Mansion
Phase Door
Summon Monster VII
Waterspout (Stormwrack)

8-
Fierce Pride of the Beastlands (SpC)
Mordenkainen's Capable Caravel (Stormwrack)
Summon Monster VIII
Trap the Soul

Are all the spells I could find which are shadow conjurable. Fierce Pride of the beastlands gets hilarious if castable as a standard action at will. I think I can get to a few ten thousand celestial dire lions, theoretically. Trap the Soul also comes in handy.