[3.5] Fighter 5 / Decent AC?

[Kerrin]

I'm trying to figure out what a decent armor class is for a Fighter of level 5.

I have a fighter with an armor class of 20 (10 + 1 dex + 8 full plate + 1 armor enhancement), but he seems to get hit quite a lot.

Yeah, he's a front line meat shield so I expect him to have to suck up a lot of damage but with the way he's been getting hammered by getting hit a lot makes me wonder if AC 20 is somehow way too low for his level and whether or not I should bother spending time looking at ways to increase his AC.

Any advice on what is the average expected armor class of a 5th level fighter built using core rules?

(p.s. he doesn't have a shield because he wields a two-handed weapon)

[Flickerdart]

I'm going to list a few random CR5 monsters from the SRD, because math is fun.

Troll: +9 to-hit
Orca: +12 to-hit
Ettin Skeleton: +10 to-hit
Giant Constrictor Snake: +13 to-hit
Huge Monstrous Spider: +9 to-hit

As you can see, 20AC means that monsters will be hitting you 45-65% of the time. If this is acceptable to you (due to a solid bunch of HP) then great, but if not...

By 5th level, you should have nine thousand GP to throw around. 2650 of that goes to cover full plate, meaning that you can easily pick up, say, a ring of protection or amulet of natural armor for 2000GP, or spring for a +2 full plate suit at an extra cost of 3000GP. Hell, you could get both magic items, and still have 2350gp, just enough for a +1 greatsword, and end with 22 AC.

[snoopy13a]

You could use a buckler. I don't think it would be optimal as it causes a -1 to hit and you cannot use a buckler for defense after you've attacked that round.

However, a +1 magic buckler would add two points to your AC (provided you haven't attacked yet).

On the other hand, if you play a game where the NPCs tend to concentrate on you, perhaps going sword and board wouldn't be that bad of a idea (assuming the NPCs will still concentrate on you and not on your party members who will deal out significantly more damage).

[Kerrin]

I'm going to list a few random CR5 monsters from the SRD, because math is fun.

What's the SRD?

As you can see, 20AC means that monsters will be hitting you 45-65% of the time. If this is acceptable to you (due to a solid bunch of HP) then great, but if not...

55 hit points don't seem to be holding up too well at the moment. My fighter ends up low on HP quite a lot.

By the way, thanks for those pluses-to-hit numbers. They do give a good perspective on things.

By 5th level, you should have nine thousand GP to throw around.

Hmm, adding up everything my fighter owns (including all the mundane possessions) it comes to a total of around 7,500gp, which is a little lower than the 9,000gp you mentioned. I'll have to ask our DM about that.

Thank you for the informative info!

[Kerrin]

On the other hand, if you play a game where the NPCs tend to concentrate on you, perhaps going sword and board wouldn't be that bad of a idea (assuming the NPCs will still concentrate on you and not on your party members who will deal out significantly more damage).

I'll have to contemplate adding a shield to my fighter and forgoing the two-handed weapon scheme - need to look at the trade offs.

Thanks for the suggestion!

[herrhauptmann]

SRD, it's the PHB, DMG, Deities and Demigods, Psionics, and Epic Level handbook, all online.
Some fluff is missing, and some other information as well, like wealth by level.
http://www.d20srd.org/

Is your DM doing random treasure? Also, it might be a good idea to check what the other players have. If the cleric and wizard are both sporting approximately 12k in goods when the DM is deciding on treasure, definitely call a foul (nicely).
If he's doing treasure randomly, sorta sounds like you got bad luck by not getting equipment you need, and thus had to sell at half cost.
Finally: If everyone has about the same amount of money in equipment, or less, then the DM should probably start sending slightly lower levels of enemies at you. Missing half your wealth of equipment can make your 'average' encounters into difficult ones.

[Kerrin]

Wow, I never knew all of that was online, thanks!

We did get some staring money but beyond that the items have been whatever we've found in the modules we've played or been able to buy using the funds we've accumulated. Were all about in the same range for total wealth though.

Thanks again for linking to the SRD!

[Greyfell]

from Personman's 'guide melee combos' thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7044115

good defenses is more then just AC and HP... though those are the front runners. Also good to keep an eye on are a way to heal yourself in combat (healing belt is a common one here) and some way to generate a miss chance like blur or concealment. If nothing else, a potion of blur or displacement in reserve for any seriously tough fights can be a big help.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just so you know... a Fighter is generally considered a very weak class that takes someone who is most definitely a rules and optimization expert to make into a "viable melee combatant".

[true_shinken]

Just so you know... a Fighter is generally considered a very weak class that takes someone who is most definitely a rules and optimization expert to make into a "viable melee combatant".

That's not exactly helpful advice. The OP is happy about his Fighter, he just needs advice to boost his armor class, not 'play something else instead'.

I'll have to contemplate adding a shield to my fighter and forgoing the two-handed weapon scheme - need to look at the trade offs.

You don't have to. A buckler specifies that it gives a -1 penalty to melee attacks if you use it to wield a weapon with two hands, but also specifies you only lose the shield bonus if you wield a weapon in your off-hand. Meaning, you keep your shield bonus to AC even if you wield a weapon in both hands.

[herrhauptmann]

Could I recommend gaining miss chances?
One of the cheapest (besides a helpful wizard in the party) might be the smoking weapon enchantment. From I believe Lords of Darkness (Faerun book). Grants you 20%, and if someone tries to grapple you, they get a stinking cloud effect in the face

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd say the previous posters have mentioned plenty of ways to boost the fighter's defenses already. I'm just trying to provide a broader viewpoint -- the idea that, in D&D, it's often smart for a player to figure out, as broadly as he can, what he wants his characters to be competent at, and then ask for help creating a character that excels in that (or those) areas of competence. It's sort of, "consider taking a step back, what do you want the character to be good at?" advice.

For example, if what he wants to do is, "Be able to be very hard to harm in melee combat, be a credible threat in melee against a wide variety of threats, without using overt spellcasting or being an undue drain on party resources, in a way that is easy for a fairly new player to understand." Than I would perhaps suggest various retraining or rebuilding options in PHB II, and I would try and help him achieve those goals with the tools available to him.

[true_shinken]

I'd say the previous posters have mentioned plenty of ways to boost the fighter's defenses already. I'm just trying to provide a broader viewpoint.

But you do realize he has no balance issues or anything, right? His Fighter works just fine, he just wants to be more durable. Heck, recomending a dip in Crusader would be good advice. Saying 'play a Crusader instead' is not good advice.
You just considered that, simply because he was a Fighter, the character sucked. It does not seem like that at all. His whole party could be tier 5, for all we know. The character seems to fit in just right. The OP makes it seem like the DM is using printed modules, for crying out loud - bringing a fully optimized build to these preset conditions would probably make the game less fun to everyone.
So, yeah, the tier system is great for discussing party balance and everything, when this is an issue. It's not an issue here, so we can we just let the guy play his Fighter and help him boost his Armor Class?

[Paul H]

Hi

The main problem I've seen so far is that we've been concentrating on the fighter in exclusion to the party.

What are the others doing?

Is the Cleric buffing properly?

Magic Circle vs Evil boosts your AC & saves by two against evil creatures. Boar's Endurance grants +4 Con, so extra 10HP at your level. Shield Other means Cleric takes half you damage, but they can heal outside threatened squares, and you gain +1 bonus to AC! Shield of Faith grants +2 Deflection mod to AC.

What about the Wizard? Grase, Glitterdust, and Fireball help wittle down opponents offensive capabilities. Haste increases yours.

The question is not about the Fighter himself, it's about how the team is doing.........

Thanks
Paul H

[ericgrau]

Blowing your highest level spell slot on magic circle against evil for +2 AC is a bit silly at this level. Just about anything else would be much better. I like the spell... around level 10 or so, but not now. Ditto on the other buffs.

[Reis Tahlen]

As a Fighter, your "Class Feature" is: tons of Feat.

I know around these parts you will find plenty of people who will jump at this and explain in great lenght that the fighter suckethest biggest time. Don't listen to them; yes, they'll find you ways to have 50 AC, by dipping 4 different classes and two PrC from various books and magazines, and forget to ask you what you want that you find pleasant and fun ti play.

Now that has been said...

So, Feats. You'll have to rely heavily on Feat to be effective. If your goal is to be a Heavy Damage Dealer, you'll need everything that boosts your AC. "Combat Expertise" is a must have. "Dodge" could seem bad, but it's like having +2 Dexterity without having to trouble for armor penalty. Look at everything which boost your defense with your two handed weapon.

AC is one thing, HP is another thing. I would advise you to avoid the Feat which give you 3hp, I tend to prefer the one which give you 1hp/level (prereq: +3 Fortitude save) in the CW.

And saves, let's not forget saves. The diffrence between taking 30 damage or 15 is a single throw.

You can't of course take everything with Feats at your level. Try to fill the gap with magic items (Cloak of Resistance +1 is CHEAP and always welcome).

Of course, having a shield could be a GREAT asset, but if you want to play the two-handed way, so be it. But I can propose you what I had in mind:

Level 5 Human Warrior: 7 Feats.

1. Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword
This will allow you to have a weapon you can use one or two handed. Versatility is always good.
2. Combat Expertise
Because gaining more AC is what you want
3. Power Attack
When you wield the Bastard Sword two handed, you want to do as much damage as possible.
4. Dodge
+1 AC on one opponent. "nuff said.
5. Slippery Dodge
+4 AC on Opportunity Attacks. Can be useful, and prereq for what comes next.
6. Moving Target (not sure about the name) school
In the CW, a school who give you some superb defense advantage, such as negating a Power Attack on you, making opponent flanking you attack each other, and you can trip people who miss their AO on you. You are though, your are hard, and hitting you becomes a nightmare.
7. Thoughness
Gives you 1hp/level. It's like having +2 Con, for free.

You can replace the last one with Iron Will.

The idea is to choose when you attack Two Handed, and when you keep your Tower Shield high. If you are the main target, use the shield. If you can afford to expose yourself, drop the shield, and swing the Bastard with potence!

[ericgrau]

Bastard sword gives +1 damage compared to another one handed weapon. Weapon spec +2. Average CR 3 monster AC is 16 (4 make an EL 7 encounter; using CR 5 would be incorrect except for a Big Bad). Assuming average stats and gauntlets of ogre power his AB is 5+4=9. He hits 14 out of 20 times for an average of 2d6+8=15 or 1d8+6=10.5. Let's say he power attacks for 4 so he hits 10 out of 20 times and averages 23 damage. His damage goes from 10.5 per round to 11.5 per round. Oops, only +1 per round, with a higher chance of overkill probably negating all of that. Ok PA for 2 and get 19 damage 12 out of 20 times, for 11.4 damage per round. Dang, no difference, just a little less overkill. Ya, right now PA is at least 3rd priority after weapon focus and weapon spec, if he can even fit it at all. The average CR 3 monster also has an AB of 7, and he can get 21 AC without a shield and 23 with (also 1,000 gp cheaper). With a shield and combat expertise, he can become virtually unhittable while still being able to hit the monster AC 9 out of 20 times. Or better yet charge in without combat expertise, get slightly hurt, then use CE and keep fighting unafraid. Also agreed on improved toughness, good feat.

[AvatarZero]

It looks like you aren't playing the sort of campaign where players choose the magic items their characters use, but if you were, or your DM suddenly thinks "This man needs ~9k worth of protective gear!", then check out the +1 Animated tower shield. It's a +5 to AC, and a new place to put protective enchantments, and on top of that you can still use your two-handed weapon. I like it (although I also like having skills, so I'd pair it with the Called property so I didn't have to suffer the -9 check penalty when I wasn't using it).

[Kerrin]

Meaning, you keep your shield bonus to AC even if you wield a weapon in both hands.

I don't want to derail this thread with a discussion on the finer points of buckler shields, but I just re-read the buckler shield entry and it seems to me if you use your off hand to wield a melee weapon in any way you lose the buckler's AC bonus 'til your turn next round.

This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

Am I mistaken?

[Kerrin]

Could I recommend gaining miss chances?

You know, that's a nifty idea, an item that give a miss chance. I'll look up some and put a few on my character's To Buy list when he gets some more money. Thanks!

[Kerrin]

But you do realize he has no balance issues or anything, right? His Fighter works just fine, he just wants to be more durable.

Yes, things are good with my fighter except for how much he gets beat up.

His whole party could be tier 5, for all we know. The character seems to fit in just right. The OP makes it seem like the DM is using printed modules

None in our party is what I'd call optimized. None of us have been playing 3.5 for very long and we mostly have just the core books (with a few more on the way that I just ordered - PHBII, CAdv, SpComp).

And, yes, we are using pre-printed modules as it makes for a lot less work for the DM.

[Kerrin]

The main problem I've seen so far is that we've been concentrating on the fighter in exclusion to the party.

What are the others doing?

Our party composition is this:

- Fighter 5 - Stands on the front line, sucks up lots of damage, and handles as much of the melee as he can get involved in.

- Cleric 5 (arcane domain) - Main cleric and light wizard duties.

- Cleric 3 (war domain) / Fighter 2 - Backup cleric and backup front line duties.

- Rogue 3 / Wizard 2 - Ranged combat, skills, and light wizard duties.

Personally, I think our party's biggest overall problem is that we are constantly low on healing so our clerics end up having to spontaneously heal us up a lot and hardly ever get to cast other spells. To address this I think we need to invest in a wand or something to boost our healing capacity. So far we've been relying on potions but they're just not cutting it.

As for my fighter, not getting hit so much would help a lot too - and thanks to everyone who has offered up suggestions so far!

[Flickerdart]

None in our party is what I'd call optimized. None of us have been playing 3.5 for very long and we mostly have just the core books (with a few more on the way that I just ordered - PHBII, CAdv, SpComp).

And, yes, we are using pre-printed modules as it makes for a lot less work for the DM.

You're going to enjoy PHBII - the Knight is quite good at defence and tanking, and you may find it worth your while to retrain some or all of your Fighter levels into Knight.

A wand of cure light wounds is an excellent way to patch up outside of combat, and is a much better deal than potions.

[Kerrin]

Level 5 Human Warrior: 7 Feats.

3. Power Attack
When you wield the Bastard Sword two handed, you want to do as much damage as possible.
4. Dodge
+1 AC on one opponent. "nuff said.

7. Thoughness
Gives you 1hp/level. It's like having +2 Con, for free.

The idea is to choose when you attack Two Handed, and when you keep your Tower Shield high. If you are the main target, use the shield. If you can afford to expose yourself, drop the shield, and swing the Bastard with potence!

Of the feats you listed, my fighter has Power Attack and Dodge. As for a weapon, he's currently wielding a Great Sword (with nice results on the offensive end of things).

On the Toughness feat I thought it only gives +3 HP, not +1 HP/level?

I like the idea of carrying a shield and deciding on the spot whether to drop it or use it for a particular encounter.

Thanks!

[Kerrin]

With a shield and combat expertise, he can become virtually unhittable while still being able to hit the monster AC 9 out of 20 times.

The first time I read the Combat Expertise feat I'd dismissed it out of hand because I didn't think I'd ever really use it. I'll have to reconsider it when my fighter gets his next feat. Thank you!

[Kerrin]

It looks like you aren't playing the sort of campaign where players choose the magic items their characters use

We do get to buy magic items (as appropriate for the size town/city we're in). Our biggest problem is having enough money to afford everything. For example, my fighter trading up from banded mail to +1 full plate cost him everything he had - so, have to hit the next adventure before buying more cool gear.

check out the +1 Animated tower shield.

Huh, animated shield - looks nifty!

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay... assuming you like being a Fighter, there are a few things in D&D you can do to be a competent melee character as one:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...ndbook_--_2007

There's the fighters handbook. Here is a thread that talks about, in general, what sorts of things it takes to be a competent not "crazy spellcasting" melee class in D&D 3.5e:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7044115

Basically, if you stick with fighter you have to invest your feats and classes generally into a one trick pony sort of deal. The question is, what one trick pony do you want to be?

That's part of why so many of us hate Fighters. They are boring, they don't have tactical versatility and choices in how they deal with problems, they require massive amounts of targeted feat tree specialization to be able to be moderately useful, they are by far LESS useful at their specialty than an extremely large number of classes that don't specialize in fighting at all, and even with optimization, they generally aren't versatile unless you go all out in a multi splat book spree looking for weird alternate class features.

[Kerrin]

You're going to enjoy PHBII - the Knight is quite good at defence and tanking, and you may find it worth your while to retrain some or all of your Fighter levels into Knight.

A wand of cure light wounds is an excellent way to patch up outside of combat, and is a much better deal than potions.

Thanks, I do look forward to the new books on the way. I'll definitely give the knight a good read.

I think our party will be investing in a curing wand - I just hope we don't lose it while adventuring - that'd stink!

[Zhalath]

While you're taking Combat Expertise, the feats in that tree could be useful for you. Improved Disarm lets you rip that shiny magic sword out of the enemy fighter's hand, and provokes an AoO if he tries to pick it up. Improved Trip puts people on the ground. Improved Feint isn't as good, because you don't have Bluff as a class skill (though it might be good if combined with a dip in rogue. I'm just spitballing here). The Dodge tree can give you Spring Attack, which can prevent you from being targeted by an enemy's full attack. Also, Spring Attack+Combat Expertise allows you to get Whirlwind Attack, in case you're surrounded.
The Power Attack tree has Improved Sunder and Improved Bull Rush, which allow you to smash your enemy's stuff and knock people around, respectively.

The thing I do like about the fighter is that it can develop multiple feat trees, which, if chosen well, can give you some fun combat choices.

[Jjeinn-tae]

If it's a problem with the monsters focusing on you, ask one of your clerics if they would cast Shield Other on you, it'll help you quite a bit on defense. While you only get 1 AC from it, you take half damage from all sources that deal HP... the downside is the casting cleric takes the rest of that.

Probably a better option on that front though, is asking for Shield of Faith, also from your clerics. It'll get your AC up to 22, but it'll only last one-sixth the time, either 20 or 50 rounds depending on which of your clerics cast it.