[3.5] Warrior/Adept Gestalt balanced?

[Omnipotent_One]

I'm about to begin a 3.5 campaign, and one of the players expressed interest in playing a character who is similar to the Red Mage from Final Fantasy. However, we are starting from level 1, and the player is relatively new to the game, so utilizing some crazy multiclass Gish build is out of the question. One suggestion we gave him was a duskblade, but its lack of curative magic didn't really capture the flavor of the red mage.

I came up with a possible solution while browsing JaronK's Tier System, specifically the partial gestalt rules. The rules suggested allowing tier 3/4 classes to gestalt with an NPC class.

I then thought to myself that perhaps Gestalt NPC classes could be used to accomplish this build, specifically a gestalt Warrior/Adept.

My personal opinion is that it is a fairly balanced combination that would fall somewhere in tier 3 (comparable to the duskblade, perhaps a bit stronger).

The DM wanted a second opinion though and suggested I consult some players online. So what do you guys all think? How balanced do you think a Gestalt Warrior/Adept is, and what tier would you place it in?

[AmberVael]

Warrior//Adept in a normal game huh?

Well, what does it look like?

HD: d8
BAB: Full
Fort: Good
Ref: Poor
Will: Good

Class Features:
Summon Familiar

Divine Casting (almost Bardic).

So basically, it is a Cleric, but with significantly less spells, no turn undead, no domains (but some not quite normal divine spells), but with full BAB. Oh no, an extra 1/4 attack bonus.

Yeah, it's balanced.

[JaxGaret]

Pretty much what Vael said, I would put it at just about the same level as the Duskblade, if not a bit weaker, due to its utter lack of class features other than the Familiar.

Another option is to simply play a Bard with some ACF for Bardic Music.

[JKTrickster]

I am just wondering: does the player want to be a Gish character or is he/she more fascinated with the signature double casting ability of the Red Mage? Just a thought because a Red Mage is more than just a normal Gish and the player might be looking for more than that.

Now as to a good Gish class, why not the Cleric? Or actually the Favored Soul?

As for the idea of gestalting Warrior and Adept....

It gets a d8 HD
Full BaB
Two Good Saves
Spells up to 5th level (based on Wis) from a somewhat limited spell list
A familiar
2 + Int Mod skills off a pretty basic skill list.

Duskblade gets d8 HD
Full BaB
Same two good saves
Spells up to 5th level (based on Int***) from a MUCH better spell list (at the very least it has offensive options)
An entire host of abilities that enables it to be a better Gish (Amored Mage and Arcane Channeling to say the least)
2 + Int Mod skills of a pretty basic list (although with Int casting, much less MAD)

I'm pretty sure in the end the Duskblade still comes out on top by a wide margin. It can easily get a familiar anyway by spending a feat (and most people do).

[Urpriest]

Red Mage is fairly bardy, come to think of it...

I'd probably let said character gestalt Fighter or Rogue with Adept. Otherwise, the lack of class features will probably get dull.

Edit: Also, the Red Mage in 8-bit at least feels like a Factotum. Make of that what you will.

[Omnipotent_One]

Thanks for all of the responses. I suppose one specific concern I have is this combination's strength at very low levels. For example, at level 1, you're basically a fighter with 2 less hp and 1 less bonus feat, with the ability to cast spells like sleep, cause fear, and cure light wounds. Do you think that's a little too strong?

[dgnslyr]

Thanks for all of the responses. I suppose one specific concern I have is this combination's strength at very low levels. For example, at level 1, you're basically a fighter with 2 less hp and 1 less bonus feat, with the ability to cast spells like sleep, cause fear, and cure light wounds. Do you think that's a little too strong?

Who said the fighter was strong to begin with? The fighter is not a particularly good baseline for these things...

[Mongoose87]

Thanks for all of the responses. I suppose one specific concern I have is this combination's strength at very low levels. For example, at level 1, you're basically a fighter with 2 less hp and 1 less bonus feat, with the ability to cast spells like sleep, cause fear, and cure light wounds. Do you think that's a little too strong?

Considering a decent Crusader could mop the floor with you, I wouldn't worry.

[Tyndmyr]

Thanks for all of the responses. I suppose one specific concern I have is this combination's strength at very low levels. For example, at level 1, you're basically a fighter with 2 less hp and 1 less bonus feat, with the ability to cast spells like sleep, cause fear, and cure light wounds. Do you think that's a little too strong?

Are you familiar with the cleric?

[PId6]

I'd say it's a bit weak. Adept is Tier 4 to begin with, but warrior doesn't really add anything. BAB and hit die are nice and all, but they don't really synergize with the adept side too well. There aren't that many too great buff spells for being a gish on the list besides Polymorph, and it has few spell slots and a slow progression. Duskblade is only low tier 3, and it has much more spell slots and actual (very good) class features, as well as Int synergy (for Knowledge Devotion). This would probably still be tier 4.

One possibility would be allowing triple gestalt Adept + Expert + Warrior. Adding Expert just serves to improve skill points to 6+Int and expanding the skill list a bit, so you're like a bard, but worse. However, the increased flexibility of extra skill points should help the character be a bit more versatile, and make it kind of a jack of all. This might become very low tier 3 in that case. I'd still take Duskblade over it, but it would at least be competitive.

[Zore]

Even with all that you may want to consider buffing up the Adept spell list. The good cleric buffs come to mind as decent choices.

[Snake-Aes]

I then thought to myself that perhaps Gestalt NPC classes could be used to accomplish this build, specifically a gestalt Warrior/Adept.

My personal opinion is that it is a fairly balanced combination that would fall somewhere in tier 3 (comparable to the duskblade, perhaps a bit stronger).

The DM wanted a second opinion though and suggested I consult some players online. So what do you guys all think? How balanced do you think a Gestalt Warrior/Adept is, and what tier would you place it in?

Warrior//Adept gestalt is basically a cleric without the good spells. A bard//hexblade would come closer.

[Hallavast]

One possibility would be allowing triple gestalt Adept + Expert + Warrior. Adding Expert just serves to improve skill points to 6+Int and expanding the skill list a bit, so you're like a bard, but worse. However, the increased flexibility of extra skill points should help the character be a bit more versatile, and make it kind of a jack of all. This might become very low tier 3 in that case. I'd still take Duskblade over it, but it would at least be competitive.

Now THAT's an idea. It probably won't be all that unique, but it fits the whole "Worldly warrior who dabbles in a bit of everything" idea rather well. It would compare well to a ranger. So solid tier 4, I'd say. I might actually play one one of these days...

[JoshuaZ]

Even with all that you may want to consider buffing up the Adept spell list. The good cleric buffs come to mind as decent choices.

Or discuss using the domain adept from the Eberron campaign setting. It swaps out the familiar for access to the spells from a single domain. They aren't added as domain spells but are added as general spells on the adept list which could be useful.

[Schylerwalker]

I've actually thought of this. I really like playing warrior-wizard types, but I also like using skills...hence, I usually play bards, or rangers. My idea was to do Gestalt Adept/Warrior but improve the warrior's Hit Die to a d10 and, because their skill list is quite a bit longer, going up to 4 + Int and giving them Listen and Spot.

The Adept/Expert/Warrior idea is pretty good too, though.

[Omnipotent_One]

Religious Adept looks like an interesting option. Does it get the domain power in addition to the spells?

[Morph Bark]

Personally, I wouldn't even be against uber-Gestalting all (official! official! not homebrew included!) NPC classes together.

EDIT: Yes, Magewright included.

[The Pressman]

Personally, I wouldn't even be against uber-Gestalting all (official! official! not homebrew included!) NPC classes together.

EDIT: Yes, Magewright included.

I would definitely play that. However, what other ones are there, if any, other than adept, warrior, expert, and magewright?

[Schylerwalker]

Aristocrat, my good sah. *Sips mint julip while sitting on the veranda.*

[Morph Bark]

I would definitely play that. However, what other ones are there, if any, other than adept, warrior, expert, and magewright?

Aristocrat, my good sah. *Sips mint julip while sitting on the veranda.*

And Commoner!

For which I am currently creating some Flaw-based PrCs, the newest being the Broken Corpse. Others found in my (extended homebrewer's) signature.


But yeah, that would essentially give you Full BAB, good Fort and Wis, 6 skill points, d8 HD, all skills class skills, proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light and medium armour and shields, and minor arcane and divine casting.

Oh, and a Familiar from level 2 onwards.

[Frozen_Feet]

*confusion*

Why not Fighter // Adept? I've heard that one is roughly on par with Psychic Warrior. My memory is hazy, but casting advances at odd levels and feats at even ones, right? As far as class features go, they might not be that inreresting, but there wouldn't be empty levels and there'd be decent room for customization.

[JoshuaZ]

Religious Adept looks like an interesting option. Does it get the domain power in addition to the spells?

Unfortunately no. However, if we're already doing this whole gestalt thing given a character the domain power would be a tiny tweak (although this wouldn't quite make sense for some domains, for example those that alter turning and rebuking, since adepts don't get that at all.)

[Morph Bark]

Unfortunately no. However, if we're already doing this whole gestalt thing given a character the domain power would be a tiny tweak (although this wouldn't quite make sense for some domains, for example those that alter turning and rebuking, since adepts don't get that at all.)

There's a Druid variant in UA that simply gets a domain tacked on - either Fire, Water, Air, Earth, Plant, Animal or Sun. Sun domain's power "alters" turning I suppose, but in the Druid's case it simply allows them to turn undead 1/day.