Vorpal weapons and Warforged

[Beelzebub1111]

Would confirmed crit with a Vorpal Weapon kill a Warforged? What about a Warforged Juggernaut? They are Constructs, if living ones...

[2xMachina]

They lose their head either way. Would they survive without a head? I'm not sure.

[arguskos]

As the Construct [Living Construct] type indicates, they are subject to death effects. Vorpal's base enchantment is circle of death, implying that vorpal can be considered a death effect. I'd interpret this as saying that warforged are subject to Vorpal's effect (ie. dying).

Technically, they always lose their head. Since a warforged's sense mechanisms are in the head, I'd think that kills them.

[Frosty]

I'd say that each Warforged has a built-in redundancy system that with the stock parts, have a 25% of kicking in to assume functions if the head is removed. Modded parts can be installed to increase the success chance to 75% and 100%

[drakir_nosslin]

Then what about a brilliant(ly stupid) energy weapon? Do warforged count as living matter for that one?

[arguskos]

Then what about a brilliant(ly stupid) energy weapon? Do warforged count as living matter for that one?

I would reason no. The logic I'm using here is that Brilliant Energy specifically calls out that constructs are immune, and though Warforged do have the living construct subtype, they are still creatures of type Construct. Living Construct does not indicate that they are affected by BE, thus the weapon ability takes precedence. They are immune.

[Beelzebub1111]

As the Construct [Living Construct] type indicates, they are subject to death effects. Vorpal's base enchantment is circle of death, implying that vorpal can be considered a death effect. I'd interpret this as saying that warforged are subject to Vorpal's effect (ie. dying).

Technically, they always lose their head. Since a warforged's sense mechanisms are in the head, I'd think that kills them.

But a 4th level Warforged Juggernaut is immune to death effects...so...what then?

[arguskos]

But a 4th level Warforged Juggernaut is immune to death effects...so...what then?

Then I'd say that they're immune to being killed through the loss of their head, much like a true golem. Seeing as that's the entire point of Juggernaut, it sounds fair.

[SirLagsalot]

Then what about a brilliant(ly stupid) energy weapon? Do warforged count as living matter for that one?

Warforged are made from organic and inorganic parts. I'd say a BE weapon would probably do half damage to Warforged who still have the living construct subtype.

[Beelzebub1111]

Then I'd say that they're immune to being killed through the loss of their head, much like a true golem. Seeing as that's the entire point of Juggernaut, it sounds fair.

So, would their head be active and their body inactive? or vise-versa? or would BOTH be active?

[SirLagsalot]

So, would their head be active and their body inactive? or vise-versa? or would BOTH be active?

If you were wearing a ring of regeneration and had your finger cut off, would your finger (which is still wearing the ring) regenerate a new you?

[mobdrazhar]

So, would their head be active and their body inactive? or vise-versa? or would BOTH be active?

I think it wouldn't remove thier head from thier body as it's a death spell that beheads them

[Hague]

Brillliant Energy weapons affect Warforged. They are Living constructs and as such are considered Living matter. The description doesn't say "organic matter" it says it ignores "non-living matter."

[hamishspence]

Hmm- isn't everything other than constructs and undead, Living, technically?

So- a brilliant energy weapon would work on an elemental, which is "living" even though it's made of elemental material?

[Mastikator]

This is a tricky question that will claim the lives of many catgirls. First we must consider; how does the Warforged think, I mean physically, HOW? They have no brain, no specific organ capable of thinking.
So we must assume that it's their soul that is thinking (and this is really the only thing separating them from regular golems). Thus, do Warforged die upon decapitation, well it depends, when the head is separated, is the soul split into two parts or does it go into either the body or the head.
In the warforged's case the head serves no real purpose other than aesthetical, and if it were to lose a arm, it wouldn't die, and the arm wouldn't be able to move. Thus we must conclude that the head would become useless, the body would go on. Since the warforged doesn't have any sense-organs, or vocal cord, we must assume it either doesn't have any senses or voice (we know this is false, warforged can at least see, hear and speak), so we must assume the warforged can hear, see and speak without a head.

TL;DR version, head goes off, warforged is not affected, head is rendered inanimate.


If Brilliant targets non-living, and we define organic as living then Brilliant doesn't bypass wooden shield, leather armor and natural armor. Which we already know it DOES bypass, so we could only argue that Brilliant targets warforged because the it has a soul.

[Jack Zander]

If you were wearing a ring of regeneration and had your finger cut off, would your finger (which is still wearing the ring) regenerate a new you?

Spoiler

Show

Takes note for next session.

[hamishspence]

The problem being that many undead have souls according to Complete Divine. So if you had, for example, a brilliant energy weapon then, on a "it targets souls" principle, it ought to harm various non-incorporeal undead.

Since we know it doesn't, it logically follows that it does not target souls, but "living matter" (which does not have to be organic)- as is stated.

A fire elemental is made of "living flame"- so- because the flame is still "living matter" a ghost touch weapon works on it.

Can a being be both "living" and "soulless"?- I'm not sure. But if such a being were to exist, then a Brilliant Energy weapon would work on it.

First we must consider; how does the Warforged think, I mean physically, HOW? They have no brain, no specific organ capable of thinking.
So we must assume that it's their soul that is thinking (and this is really the only thing separating them from regular golems). Thus, do Warforged die upon decapitation, well it depends, when the head is separated, is the soul split into two parts or does it go into either the body or the head.
In the warforged's case the head serves no real purpose other than aesthetical, and if it were to lose a arm, it wouldn't die, and the arm wouldn't be able to move. Thus we must conclude that the head would become useless, the body would go on. Since the warforged doesn't have any sense-organs, or vocal cord, we must assume it either doesn't have any senses or voice (we know this is false, warforged can at least see, hear and speak), so we must assume the warforged can hear, see and speak without a head.

Actually, there's a lot more separating living constructs from regular ones, than the soul. Various vulnerabilities, for example.

Where are we getting the idea that "Warforged have no sense organs"- from? I don't remember anything in the rulebooks stating this. Or that they have no "specific organ capable of thinking".

[Mastikator]

Ok then, there's no basis for brilliant to work on warforged, since they not made of living matter.

Edit- Warforged started out as regular golems, since regular golems do not have organs, neither should warforged. (they don't even have "clockwork-parts", unlike what I imagine Inevitables do)

[hamishspence]

Doesn't the "Living construct" subtype, mean that the warforged automatically counts as "A living creature" for the purpose of various spells, templates (like half-dragon) and so on?

If it's "A living creature" then (like an elemental) it may be "made of living matter".

The first warforged (Titans, Steel Krakens, Raptors) were all different from regular golems in at least one factor- they were intelligent.

The last warforged (Chargers, Scouts, and finally regular ones) were all Living Constructs.

A creature does not have to have organs to be "living matter"- a fire elemental explicitly has no specific organs (hence no vulnerability to crits) neither does an ooze. Yet both are "living".

[Mastikator]

Wait, I thought warforged started out as non-intelligent constructs and later became intelligent somehow.

This changes everything.

Edit- the organ part was about whether the warforged would be able to see, hear and speak without a head, since it doesn't have eyes, ears or vocal cords to begin with it senses and communicates without its head, somehow.

[drakir_nosslin]

Well, personally I think that it comes down to wether or not the 'Living Construct' subtype actually changes the material of a construct into 'living matter'. The problem is that we do not know what living matter really is, it's just something that the designers came up with and never (afaik) bothered to explain.
I for one would say that brilliant weapons won't affect warforged, they are after all constructed out of stone, dead wood, metal and similar materials. There is nothing that says that just because you have a soul you're affected by a brilliant energy weapon.

EDIT: Swordsages ahoy!

[hamishspence]

I lean toward the reverse- primarily because there's nothing stating that elementals (made of earth, fire, water, etc) are not affected by Brilliant Energy- since they are still living creatures.

On warforged organs- as far as I know, they have no immunity to spells like blindness, the effects of deafness, and so on. Maybe they do have organs of a sort- that can be disabled via spells.

If you cast Trap The Soul to remove a person's soul, and the body starts dying, it is still living matter until it finally expires- the soul alone does not make matter "living".

Maybe it's just that all "living creatures" including elementals, oozes, and living constructs, have "life energy" in their matter, and it is this that is disrupted by a brilliant energy weapon.

There's a rather good Planescape essay on the subject of what everything in the D&D-verse is made of:

http://www.mimir.net/essays/planarphysics.html

While the SRD does not have rules for Living Constructs, the WOTC Glossary does:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...subtype&alpha=

And there, they are referred to as "living creatures" albeit ones which "behave slightly differently from other living creatures".

[AslanCross]

Warforged are living constructs and as such will be killed by a successfully triggered vorpal property. W-Titans aren't living constructs, and won't be killed.

[hamishspence]

The other question was- do warforged ("living creatures") count as being made of "living matter" for the purposes of Brilliant Energy weapons?

I'm inclined to go with "everything that counts as a living creature is made of living matter"

This includes warforged, and elementals.

[panaikhan]

Brilliant energy weapons do not effect Constructs.
'Living Construct' is a subtype, NOT a type or supertype.

[hamishspence]

This has been discussed before:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126128

and the general conclusion was that the reason BE weapons cannot harm constructs, is that constructs are assumed to be made of nonliving matter.

(The SRD does state in the Construct description that they are made of nonliving matter)

The DMG was written before there were Living Constructs- which are explicitly described as "living creatures".

[Traveler]

I can't find it, but I do remember reading somewhere that warforged have livewood as a componant of their contruction. So BE weapons should work.

As for vorpal weapons and warforged, the following is just my own view given that wizards never resolved the issue. Every warforged has a unique ghurla on their head. The way my group plays is that the ghurla effectivly is what keeps the soul and the body together. So when a warforged should loose his head, he takes damage and can no longer animate his body, though his head if fine and can still use everything involved with it (hearing, seeing, talking). Again, this is just my own view of that. Hope it is food for thought.

[arguskos]

This has been discussed before:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126128

and the general conclusion was that the reason BE weapons cannot harm constructs, is that constructs are assumed to be made of nonliving matter.

(The SRD does state in the Construct description that they are made of nonliving matter)

The DMG was written before there were Living Constructs- which are explicitly described as "living creatures".

While a fine assumption, it is nothing more than such. I personally agree with the idea that warforged are affected by BE weapons, but RAW is pretty cut and dried here.

Living Construct does not say it is affected by BE weapons. BE specifically states that constructs are immune. Ergo, Living Constructs are immune to BE weaponry. *shrugs*