The Magic Item Shop Question

[BRC]

I’d like to discuss the Magic Item Shop, you know the one. The one that stocks every item, from potions of CLW to +5 Gnomebane Dire Flails, all at exact DMG prices. The one that, no questions asked, buys any items, art objects, gemstones, dragon eyes, or whatever else the PC’s need to unload. And they always have enough gold on hand to buy it all. It shows up in any town, village, or hamlet, no matter how impoverished, terrorized by nearbye ogres, or oppressed by an evil empire. Less a place than an idea, you rarely roleplay the PC’s coming in and saying “Hi, I’ve got this gem-encrusted statue here to sell, and I’m looking to buy a helmet that lets me see invisible things, and also shoots lasers”, and being told to take the statue to the desk over there labeled “Sale/Exchange”, and that helmets are in aisle 2.
We use this for a reason, it’s easy and convenient. You don’t want to spend a session trying to find somebody to sell you a +2 sword, you want to spend it killing things with that sword. Similarly, you don’t want to have to find somebody to buy that tapestry for the DMG price, you just want to write how much gold you got on your character sheet.

But, does anybody here have experience with other methods of handling this. Do DM’s roll up the stock of a given magic item shop, make you find that dwarven hermit who lives up a mountain and is the only one skilled enough to make that +4 sword you want? Would you rather play in a setting where that mythical shop is readily available around every corner, or one where turning your gold into useful items could be an adventure in of itself?

[shiram]

I am planning a 3.5 campaign and i am trying to think up a way to make the magic shop interesting.

I will add a Wirt-like( From Diablo) NPC, basically you can buy magic items from him, but there is an entry fee. Also items are magical but not identified... so there is risk, and the items will have a rounded down average cost.

Anyways i am still thinkering, but i am working on a spreadsheet so that items can be rolled with a d100 roll as well.

[Paladineyddi]

In my group magic is supposed to be a bit mysterious
so yes we go to that big mountain to look for that dwarf who can make a huge blinging +4 sword called gnomeeater

having a magic shop like you describe is sort of like watching a movie get really immersed and then somebody comes along every 5 minutes and shatters the TV with a hammer

[shadow_archmagi]

99% of "Magic Item Shops" in my games have existed only in player's backstories, because they only accept WBL and not treasure gained ingame.



Of course, sometimes I will have a merchant approach the PCs with a choice of two or three items I think will be nifty, and let them bicker over which one is the key to the next puzzle.

[SigCorps]

Usually you only find the more common magics in the shops. Low level scrolls, potions, maybe a few wands and wonderous items. Not going to find that +4 vorpal blade though. For that head up the mountain.

[Tyndmyr]

I’d like to discuss the Magic Item Shop, you know the one. The one that stocks every item, from potions of CLW to +5 Gnomebane Dire Flails, all at exact DMG prices. The one that, no questions asked, buys any items, art objects, gemstones, dragon eyes, or whatever else the PC’s need to unload. And they always have enough gold on hand to buy it all. ...make you find that dwarven hermit who lives up a mountain and is the only one skilled enough to make that +4 sword you want? Would you rather play in a setting where that mythical shop is readily available around every corner, or one where turning your gold into useful items could be an adventure in of itself?

Neither. The idea of having to do an entire adventure for the fighter to get a moderate upgrade seems less than fantastic.

It also seems ridiculous that the best magical items are available only from some loner who apparently doesn't really want to do business. More populous places have more things for sale, and better things. This is actually in the rules, and is remarkably realistic.

[Snake-Aes]

In my Long group there are thresholds. Items worth up to a few thousands are easy to sell/buy in an appropriately large settlement. For really expensive stuff (say, a +4 weapon), you'll have only one or two places where you can find those without a big deal (for example, the freaking flying city that connects worlds and lives from its commerce). For the REALLY big stuff? You'll have a quest's worth of finding a buyer or seller.

Within dm discretion, items of the expensive kind require a couple checks while the group spends their day off. We enjoy this process.

[Ajadea]

In my magic-restricted worlds, you make do with the rusty old +2 keen shortsword with the pink pompoms on the hilt, or you run around with the +1 weapon, which may or may not have a weak enchantment (one of those with a +1 bonus price) on it.

In the 'magic is common' worlds, there IS a magic item mart. Try to steal ANYTHING and the owner, a high level caster, kills you or sics his/her iron golems on you. Fun. It's in the big metropolis, and yes, you have to go there yourselves, and no, he doesn't accept dragon eyeballs and old statues as proper payment, though dragonhide works.

If you're in the middle of nowhere, then yeah, no. The adepts at the temple can make you low-level scrolls and potions!

[Schylerwalker]

Even in small towns, I usually have at the very least a 1st level adept who can make scrolls of cure light wounds. In larger towns, you have wizards with a small shop who sell scrolls, potions, and minor wondrous and alchemical items. Then there's temples where you can buy varying magic items for a modest "donation."

I wouldn't be surprised, for example, if there were guys at a Temple of Moradin with Craft Magic Arms and Armor, or a guy at a Temple of Boccob who could make staffs and rods and whatnot. It shouldn't just be "What level the PC's are," but also "Where the PC's are, and what the area they're in is like."

[Zaydos]

In one campaign I had:
A kind of cranky old mage that ran a magic shop (ask and it might be there). Met the PCs when they were investigating him for suspected murder, he had a staff of disintegration and they decided not to mess with him. Sold odd items mostly.
A traveling goblin artificer who probably had the most "whatever you want" inventory in the setting, but they only bought dragon eggs from him.
Connections via the world spanning anti-aberration organization they were in that let them order magic items from the mages that worked for the organization, although that took time.

Edit: And now I want to put a magical Wal-Mart in a game.

[BRC]

Usually you only find the more common magics in the shops. Low level scrolls, potions, maybe a few wands and wonderous items. Not going to find that +4 vorpal blade though. For that head up the mountain.

Which brings up an interesting points, higher level play.

Your standard town magic item shop can stock a couple +1 weapons and suit of armor, a shelf of low-level potions and scrolls, maybe a few wondrous items., and this is fine for a low-level party.

However, once the party gets to higher level, when the contents of that shop become useless. When the loot has been divided, and it's time to go shopping, does the Fighter have to go to that dwarven hermit to buy a better sword while the wizard needs to persuade the arcane university to part with their high-level scrolls. Does the party head to the four corners of the earth between each adventure to get the equipment they need. Even if there is no more monsters between them and the item in question, there is still the matter of distance.

Neither. The idea of having to do an entire adventure for the fighter to get a moderate upgrade seems less than fantastic.

It also seems ridiculous that the best magical items are available only from some loner who apparently doesn't really want to do business. More populous places have more things for sale, and better things. This is actually in the rules, and is remarkably realistic.

okay, so anything the PC's need can be found in the Big City. Makes sense, such places are a center of commerce, if I had a magic sword to sell I'd take it there.

However, such an arrangement can still be problematic. The PC's are waaay out there in the wilderness, can they afford to take a couple months to go on a shopping trip. Does the DM just say "You head back to the city without incident, then return to wherever you were before"?
(I'm being the devil's advocate here).

Really, this is about opportunity vs Convenience. By limiting which items the PC's have access to you can make things much more fun, it opens up more potential for gameplay, can make things more challenging. If you don't limit their access to items, either with the theoretical magic item shop described in the OP, or by handwaving lengthy trips to and from urban centers, you streamline gameplay, but lose that opportunity. The last campaign I played was a zombie-apocalypse type affair, civilization was collapsed, and there were dangers everywhere. One adventure consisted of us breaking into a dwarven noble's house in order to find enough diamonds to resurrect fallen teammates, and we had fun with that. My character was an Archivist, and any time I got the opportunity to loot some scrolls my eyes lit up. Any other campaign and I would have taken that for granted. Any scrolls I find would just be scrolls I wouldn't have to buy later.


And here comes another question, must a campaign be all or nothing. Unlimited access or limited.
Could a DM let the party make those shopping trips to the big city without incident six times, and then throw in a complication the 7th time? As I player, I would find that frustrating, like the DM was infringing on my rightful access to magic items.

[aeauseth]

I'd caution against roleplaying too much with the buying/selling of items. I'm currently playing with a new DM (new to me, been a DM awhile) that likes to roleplay EVERYTHING. He does a fantastic job with the storyline and characters, but in one case it took 2+ hours to buy/sell items. Our VoP character might as well gone home. The rest of us waited our turn until the DM got to use so we could interact with the shops.

DND is about roleplaying and rolling dice, not shopping. Try to keep any in-game shopping time down to a minimum.

What works well in my previous campaigns? Do shopping leveling off-line, between sessions, limited to no rolplaying with shopkeeps. Shackled City had a pre made store with 2d8 days of waiting to get something imported. Another required DC checks & guild membership to purchase high powered guild related items.

[Skorj]

I always have three tiers of shops when I DM, because realistically you can't sell magic items unless you are powerful enough to keep potential customers from stealing from you!

• Low-level items are available from anywhere there's civilization - any town, occasional wandering merchants through villages, etc.
• Mid-level items are available in cities, and anywhere mages would gather - the arcane university bookstore, for example.
• High-level items are only to be found in invitation-only shops, which you might have to quest to build favor with (preferably before you reach high level), because it's really hard to keep a high-level D&D Wizard from robbing you, short of running your magic shop from an invitiation-only demiplane or something like that. You will need to do something to convince the high-level shops that you're worth taking the risk of doing business with.

[Tyndmyr]

okay, so anything the PC's need can be found in the Big City. Makes sense, such places are a center of commerce, if I had a magic sword to sell I'd take it there.

However, such an arrangement can still be problematic. The PC's are waaay out there in the wilderness, can they afford to take a couple months to go on a shopping trip. Does the DM just say "You head back to the city without incident, then return to wherever you were before"?
(I'm being the devil's advocate here).

Well, Im generally DMing. Once they have access to Teleport, this is indeed what happens. Before then, it happens when they make it happen.

They're aware of the nature of what they've looted, in a general sense, and usually have a rough idea as to it's value. They're also aware that pothole towns have a lack of gp there. Whenever they feel it necessary to make the effort to go there, they can. Generally, they won't bother until it's a good stash of loot or they run low on capacity.

A good thing too. Shopping trips eat through gameplay time like mad, and the more you roleplay it out, the more it does so. The tale of "how I got 15% off a +1 sword" generally isn't a great one. Sure, roleplaying can be fun, but it's best to gloss over the mundane aspects of life. This is why PCs never, ever have to visit the bathroom unless it's dramatically appropriate.

And here comes another question, must a campaign be all or nothing. Unlimited access or limited.
Could a DM let the party make those shopping trips to the big city without incident six times, and then throw in a complication the 7th time? As I player, I would find that frustrating, like the DM was infringing on my rightful access to magic items.

If it makes sense, sure. If the town you normally visit gets overran by the invaders from X that you failed to stop, well, such is life. It shouldn't be about the DM preventing the players from getting magical items. It should be about the repercussions of in game events.

[SigCorps]

Aye in high level play, convenience usually trumps over "reality". My players might have to head to the wizards college to get that specialty item or to sell one, but thats a 2 minute side bar in game most of the time.

[Snake-Aes]

Aye in high level play, convenience usually trumps over "reality". My players might have to head to the wizards college to get that specialty item or to sell one, but thats a 2 minute side bar in game most of the time.

Well, if trading is done mostly offscreen, it doesn't "have" to break reality. After a while your contact network does improve!

[SigCorps]

Aye, they do get better, you may not be buying from the shop, but the guy running it might know a buyer, or seller of what you need.
But a shop with a stand full of +5 swords is just a tad unrealistic.

[Schylerwalker]

Well, could you imagine how long it would take to buy a +5 sword anyways? Isn't that 50,000 gp? A thousand POUNDS of gold? Sure, you could have a bag of holding or three, but that must be one patient shop owner, as you pull out handful after handful of gold to buy this metal stick. And if you don't have a bag of holding? Wheelbarrows, my friend. Wheelbarrows.

[Tyndmyr]

but that must be one patient shop owner, as you pull out handful after handful of gold to buy this metal stick. And if you don't have a bag of holding? Wheelbarrows, my friend. Wheelbarrows.

Why would this patience be unusual?

Do shopkeepers hate players lugging in wheelbarrows filled with gold to their shop or something? In my world, they would be rubbing their hands in glee.

[Schylerwalker]

Do you have any idea how long it would take to count out 50,000 gold pieces?

[Tyndmyr]

That's what scales are for, my friend.

Also, we have PP and jewels, for once GP are too unwieldy.

[tyckspoon]

Why would this patience be unusual?

Do shopkeepers hate players lugging in wheelbarrows filled with gold to their shop or something? In my world, they would be rubbing their hands in glee.

About as much as real-world merchants enjoy having big-ticket items paid for in change, I suspect. It's not that they're unhappy about making the sale... they'd just really prefer you paid in some more convenient and more readily negotiable form, be it a credit card, check, or, in a fantasy world, perhaps a small sack full of precious stones or a letter of deposit from a bank (D&D tends toward mid-late Renaissance in its social structure. If you can have a 100k+ population city that supports magic item shops.. you can dang well have banks that will be happy to hold your piles of gold.) When you come in with the sack'o'gold they have to very carefully count to make sure you're actually paying the full price (gods help you if you lose count on GP 15,602 of 50,000) and then they have to figure out wth to actually *do* with that much gold. And hope the next person through the door doesn't just mug it out of them.

[Cieyrin]

About as much as real-world merchants enjoy having big-ticket items paid for in change, I suspect. It's not that they're unhappy about making the sale... they'd just really prefer you paid in some more convenient and more readily negotiable form, be it a credit card, check, or, in a fantasy world, perhaps a small sack full of precious stones or a letter of deposit from a bank (D&D tends toward mid-late Renaissance in its social structure. If you can have a 100k+ population city that supports magic item shops.. you can dang well have banks that will be happy to hold your piles of gold.) When you come in with the sack'o'gold they have to very carefully count to make sure you're actually paying the full price (gods help you if you lose count on GP 15,602 of 50,000) and then they have to figure out wth to actually *do* with that much gold. And hope the next person through the door doesn't just mug it out of them.

I believe there are cantrips for counting out coins and whatnot, so I think that's not exactly the biggest issue here so much as the security of the location and what you do if customers get belligerent and try to take advantage of you and your shop.

[Oracle_Hunter]

For D&D3.x games I recommend having a Magic Item Shop of some sort. Don't worry about items lists and so forth - just make someplace where people can convert wealth into magic as per the price guide in the DMG.

This can range from The Bazaar at Deva (a dimension-wide shoping district run by master merchants who can get anything) to The Magic Pond (a sentient and enchanted pond that accepts valuables and awards magical items) but you need something to keep the non-casters running. The game is simply not designed to support folks without magical healing; additionally, non-casters need large amounts of magic-item support to keep up with casters in mid-to-late game play.

For D&D4 games I prefer to include appropriate (if not optimal) magical items in adventure loot as per the DMG and to provide known areas where Ritualists of given power-levels are available to accept components or valuables to create desired goods. Magic Item Marts are neither necessary nor wise when items can be disenchanted into more portable (and concealable!) Residuum and sufficiently skilled Ritualists can produce items on demand. Finding these Ritualists can range from the trivial (e.g. low-Heroic stuff in a major city) to adventures in their own right (e.g. traveling to the City of Brass).

[SigCorps]

It would be more along the lines of bartering for it, but since that really bogs down play we use the gp conversion and throw a lot of logic out the window. It is a game though so we can allow that.

[JonestheSpy]

Liking low-magic games, I'm pretty dead-set against MagicMart, though the odd little shops selling interesting low-level curios are okay. An alchemist selling poison antidotes, Soveriegn Glue, and Universal Solvent, is fine; walking in picking out +5 swords with custom enchantment combos is a big no way.

Really, for high level play it's pretty basic - the DM spends some time and planning planting magic treasures the players will find interesting and want to keep, instead of viewing magic as just another trade commodity to be cashed in ASAP.

The challenge then becomes giving players something to do with their gold. Bilbo went on one big adventure then retired comfortably. Folks like Conan and the Gray Mouser blow through their treasure on wine women, and song - which is fine if your players want to play it that way, but it's probably not too cool for the DM to simply announce "After 3 weeks of non-stop partying you're broke again". Back in AD&D players had the goal of building a keep at high enough level to encourage them to save up and value their imaginary gold, so something similar could work.

[SigCorps]

Keep building, aye there is that. Or build and run a tavern.

[Yuki Akuma]

When the PCs are a sufficiently high level where nothing in the local magic shop is good enough, they Plane Shift to Sigil and shop there.

[some guy]

Usely I don't play out shopping and bartering. If I notice that a player wants to roleplay it a bit I go along.

Spoiler for details about magic item dispersion in my game:

Spoiler

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In my campaign, the players started at level 1 and are now currently level 9. The travel in a fixed area with 3 large cities.
The largest city does not stock items with a value over 10.000 gp (one magic shop, few temples and other things spread out).
The hidden gnome city has fewer magic items, but possibly with a higher value. The last city has only few magic items with a low value.
The towns spread between these cities don't sell magic items (there might be one in possession of certain persons). They might not even sell some curious things like thunderstones and whatnot. Also, somewhere in the region there's a mad magic dwarf hidden in a strange hill selling custom magic armor and weapons (wich could be of a high value).

So yeah, there are restrictions in my campaign, but with a little effort my players can usely find what they want.

[Kantolin]

If my PCs want an item, unless I'm running a game where your supplies are explicitly limited, they can get it.

Sure, you can get thirty scrolls and two +2 kukri. Whatever! It wouldn't be terribly exciting for me to go through that exchange thirty two times, nor does it really help me if you can only get 28 at this store and have to go elsewhere for the last one. If it's unbalancing for you to have 30 scrolls, then I'll tell you it's unbalancing for you to have 30 scrolls and we'll move on. Just mark the gold off your sheet, maybe a sentence will be said on the subject, and hey.

The exchanges between shopkeepers, then, are saved for fun occasions. In one of my games, the dragons and the gods were opposed, and the group was approached by a dragon shaman who offered them god-theft staves (Basically divine runestaves) for a price - he had three of them, the players bought one of the three after quite a bit of back and forth. When they saved a town from destruction, the extremely grateful townsfolk made it a big deal that they could stay at the inn for free whenever they wanted, and fell over themselves helping them out with discounts and the like on their inventory. When they went to look for an item that's common among drow but nonexistant everywhere else, the drow didn't like that the party had elves with them and thus were extremely difficult to get 'Where IS it?!' information out of, and then rather blatantly overcharged the group for it. When the silver mine blew up, all of a sudden it was fairly hard to get silver in that area, which made the lycanthropy problem harder (and highly suspicious).

All of these are neat, and all of these are /rare/. Sure, the fighter can get his +5 Holy Keen Flaming Burst scythe if he wants it - I don't care! If it's imbalancing then I'll tell him so. If I want the party to quest to the top of Mt. HardToClimb for a sword for the fighter, it's gonna be for Excaliber, and part of a multi-run series of neat events happening before he can pull the sword from the stone. I don't want to have to run events for the upgrading-so-I-don't-suck equipment, the I-thought-it-would-be-cool-to-have-a-merciful-scythe equipment, nor the 'Dangit, I want three 7th level spells and I only have two. I'll go buy a scroll'.

Now, the group has quested for really neat unique spells that don't exist anywhere else and the like, and summarily cannot get more scrolls of it without a bit of work.

I suppose as a last statement, if a reason against the magic item shop is game balance, then why not just enforce game balance? Saying 'you have to quest for everything' means that book-savvy players will find ways to deal with it without having to ask (For example, there are a lot of ways of getting more wizard spells on level up), while the more casual players will find themselves constantly undergeared (And without any of the fun gear that comes with having enough funds to splurge).


Edit: Now, if I'm running a monopoly-esque game where you own property a'la the DMG2 rules (I've done that before), or playing in a game where the group is trapped on an abandoned wasteland plane and is struggling to find food to survive (I've done that too), then it can become harder to find basic gear. But by their very natures, those are the exceptions, not the rules.